adrien changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://www.ocaml.org | OCaml 4.02.3 announced http://ocaml.org/releases/4.02.html | Try OCaml in your browser: http://try.ocamlpro.com | Public channel logs at http://irclog.whitequark.org/ocaml
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<seliopou> where does jane street get their entropy?
<whitequark> artisanal handcrafted entropy
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<Enjolras> The financial world is full of entropy. I guess they are trying to remove entropy instead :p
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<Enjolras> there is something i've never managed to do properly. With modules and signatures you have to write the types twice
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<Drup> there are two solutions
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<Drup> 1) have a foo_sigs.mli and put all th signature there
<Drup> 2) ppx_import
<Enjolras> and since module types and module are two different kind of object, it's not possible to write something like module T = struct type t = int end module type TS = sig include T val foo : t -> int end
<Enjolras> hmm
<Enjolras> Drup: 1) is what i do, but you still have to write the types twice
<Enjolras> or do you mean 1) and 2) are two steps of the same solution ?
<Drup> No, but you can put module containing only types is the foo_sigs.mli
<Enjolras> (this has been annoying me for *years* so i decided today was the day i asked what people were doing :p)
<Enjolras> Drup: sorry ? i don't manage to understand your last sentence :/
<Enjolras> in* ?
<Drup> yes, in*
<Enjolras> sorry, but i don't understand. Once you have put modules types in foo_sigs.mli, then what ? how do you convert them back to actual types ?
<Drup> that's what I'm saying, you can put *modules* that contains only types in foo_sigs.mli
<Drup> it also works
<Drup> not only module types
<Enjolras> i tried, but it says syntax error. Is that new ? i have ocaml 4.02.1 here
<Drup> module M : sig ... end
<Drup> it's still an mli
<Enjolras> Oh ! I get it. You can sort of declare a module type and skip the implemtation if it conains only types. Nice !
<Enjolras> thank you ! :)
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<seliopou> i meant more like, where's the module in their code where they get their entropy?
<seliopou> spelunking through core is hairy business
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<triogenes> hey all - i'm having issues installing core through opam - on a fresh install of ocaml on fedora 22
<triogenes> that's the traceback
<triogenes> any ideas?
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<nullcatxxx_> did i just see whitequark !?
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<toolslive> triogenes: you can seek inspiration here https://github.com/openvstorage/alba/blob/master/docker/alba_centos7/Dockerfile (I think you miss some packages)
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<ianhedoesit> why is there a function `float` to convert int to float but no function `int` to convert float to int?
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<toolslive> int_of_float ?
<toolslive> the reason is that `int` does not convey enough information. it could have been int: char -> int for example
<dmbaturin> ianhedoesit: Have you heard of ocamloscope? It's a nice tool for this situation: http://ocamloscope.herokuapp.com/?q=float+-%3E+int
<ianhedoesit> I know, I mean there is literally a function called `float` which is the same as `float_of_int` but there's not a literal function `int` which is `float_of_int`
<toolslive> yes, naming isn't always consistent in the std lib. neither is design
<dmbaturin> Ah. Well, design mistake that stuck probably.
<ianhedoesit> dmbaturin: no, but it's a nice tool it semms. it doesn't answer my question though. I don't expect there to be a good reason, I was just hoping I was missing something
<dmbaturin> In any case, float_of_int also exists. I normally use that rather than float.
<ianhedoesit> yeah, it just seems odd that the documentation for `float` is just "Same as float_of_int." for no good reason. (I understand things happen and cruft happens, but I was hoping for a more technical reason.)
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<dmbaturin> Maybe it's something from CAML Light times.
<orbifx> hello all
<dmbaturin> You can recreate the int conterpart of this design issue with let int = int_of_float :)
<dmbaturin> Hi orbifx!
<ianhedoesit> ;) I could, but that's no fun.
<orbifx> hello dmbaturin!
<fds> It would be nice if they fixed a load of these irregularities in syntax and the standard library, but oh well.
<flux> I think the 'float' is more reasonable have as it's a mostly non-destructive transformation, whereas 'int' would then choose a policy how to round
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<flux> and float is also more practically useful than 'int' would be. you more often start with integers and to to floats than vice versa.
<flux> s/to to/go to/
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<flux> float_of_int x /. float_of_int y doesn't really roll of your tongue nicely.. ;)
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<toolslive> you could also allow overloading
<flux> well, it's not just "allow" it, it bring all kinds of complexities
<flux> but there is something like that coming up, namely modular implicits
<toolslive> I know; it complicates type inference
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<toolslive> but complexities inside the compiler are not an excuse for not doing the right thing
<flux> well, it can also complicate error messages
<flux> and the solution isn't just "well make them simpler" if the problem is complicated :)
<dmbaturin> Rule of ocaml: floats discussion morphs into an ad hoc polymorphism discussion within minutes. ;)
<flux> personally I would love to see /. and friends go away.
<flux> it's just that after a pause and starting to write heavily floaty code it's practically 100% guaranteed that I will accidentally use + instead of +.
<flux> also, converting equations from maxima will be a work of search/replace with that ;)
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<flux> I'm still sort of happy that we don't have F#/SML-like ad-hoc specialization feature in the compiler for ints/floats :)
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<ianhedoesit> I'm just starting to learn OCaml (it's been a language I've wanted to look into for awhile) and so far my biggest hurdle is the "." versions of numeric operators
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<flux> it's super if that's the greatest hurdle :-)
<ianhedoesit> I'm not unfamiliar with functional programming, so nothing (thus far) is foreign. and the int vs float operators isn't really an issue - it's simple enough to keep track of mentally.
<flux> the compiler is certainly happy to inform you if yu mess up :)
<ianhedoesit> yup, which is nice. my functional programming background is primarily Clojure, so the static type-checking is nice.
<toolslive> hm, "complicate error messages"; currently you also have the problem that the compiler complains on the location where the unification is stuck, and not the root cause. so error messages have complications already.
<toolslive> anyway, I'm quite happy with the language (even though there is cruft and silliness) it's the runtime that bothers me more.
<ianhedoesit> toolslive: how come? I know virtually nothing about anything in the world of ocaml.
<toolslive> well, parallelism is a problem, and fork is not a solution. resource management can be problematic too (for example values in the c-heap that are not freed because the associated value on the ocaml heap is too small to bother the gc)
<toolslive> but don't worry: you will not hit that often.
<toolslive> ocaml is functional and has static typing; that's 95% of what you need.
<orbifx> flux, why not shadow the other integer operators in your scopes?
<ianhedoesit> I have read some about ocaml performance and constraints.
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<toolslive> performance and constraints?
<ianhedoesit> I think it's interesting how much the implementation of an interpreter (or I suppose the design of the bytecode) affects the performance of a language today. Whereas a few years ago a non-parallel interpreted language was fine, today it can be a real problem for a lot more applications.
<ely-se> implementation of interpreter dictates performance of programs running in that interpreter
<ianhedoesit> not to say that I think ocaml isn't fit for most of what anyone (especially me) needs a language to do - I just like thinking about it.
<ely-se> not of the language. languages don't have performance. they're mathematical models
<triogenes> toolslive: thanks, even following that i get the same error. and a similar one for piqi - unknown type name int64
<ianhedoesit> ely-se: it seemed easier to type, although I know it's not an accurate use of language.
<dmbaturin> ianhedoesit: Most people use the native code compiler rather than bytecode, by the way. Unless for js_of_ocaml or on platforms native compiler doesn't support.
<toolslive> native is said to be 3-7 times faster on average than .byte
<dmbaturin> The bytecode interpreter is really an interpreter (not a JIT compiler), and the bytecode compiler doesn't do any optimizations at all.
<flux> I think it still isn't catastrophic.. ie. compared to, say, python?
<toolslive> indeed: .byte still blows away python
<dmbaturin> Yeah, I'm not saying it's catastrophic. I'm just saying that it's way slower than the native code. :)
<flux> I use the bytecode ocamlc during development when performance doesn't matter, which is most of the time
<ianhedoesit> I'm not sure "python" is a fair comparison - as ely-se pointed out, it's up to the interpreter itself to set the speed of the program, not the language's definition
<flux> well, the interpreter doesn't work in a void, the language sets some limits or 'obvious' paths
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<flux> for example, if you can redefine anything at any point and do it from a dynamically generated code, a fast implementation needs a lot of work :)
<dmbaturin> In practice, equating Python to the CPython implementation is a reasonable approximation though. :)
<ianhedoesit> PyPy is a significantly faster implementation though.
<flux> of course the context was 'interpreters'
<flux> as I understand it, python also does some bytecode as an intermediate step and then interprets that
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<flux> thet ocaml bytecode is likely much less safe than python's
<toolslive> CPython is the slowest python implementation around.
<flux> yet it remains the most common one :)
<flux> you're saying like there is a ton of production-quality python implementations available..
<toolslive> as it is the de-facto spec
<dmbaturin> ianhedoesit: Yeah, it was an exaggeration of the fact that other python implementation are still a minority.
<toolslive> you just cannot switch python runtime without having weird side effects
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<flux> as I understand it the C library interface is the biggest stumble for PyPy?
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<Leonidas> flux: "PyPy has alpha/beta-level support for the CPython C API, however, this feature is not yet complete. We strongly advise use of CFFI instead."
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<Leonidas> is there a opam switch migrate to reinstall all libs from the current compiler to a new one?
<Leonidas> the export/import dance
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<Mercuria1Alchemi> Leonidas: don't think so
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<toolslive> that would indeed be a nice feature
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<jmasseo> I wonder how come JST's ad showed up when I searched for ocamlgraph when I have AdBlock on?
<jmasseo> Jane Street is looking to hire sys-admins who grok FP. Maybe after I vest at my current spot.
<adrien> jmasseo: "acceptable ads"
<jmasseo> ahhhh
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<jmasseo> i usually don't getany google ads. I wonder what makes JST's acceptable
<jmasseo> maybe they paid up if they're looking for sysadmins, whom they know will be running ad block
<def`> jmasseo: yesterday you seemed to have problems with merlin
<def`> what was it?
<jmasseo> minor thing, my editor showing an error that the compiler isn't reporting.
<adrien> jmasseo: not jst's in particular but text ads should be considered "acceptable" by abp
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<jmasseo> adrien: right, i'd heard about it. I just had not actually seen any ads pop up through it before.
<jmasseo> even on google search
<jmasseo> maybe i caught an upgrade.
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<def`> jmasseo: could you be more explicit?
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<jmasseo> Sure
<jmasseo> one second
<jmasseo> in one single lwt statement, it's saying I have an unbound variable and I"m not sure why
<jmasseo> since i'm binding a variable there.
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<jmasseo> could just be emacs being a pos.
<def`> can you paste the code somewhere?
<jmasseo> in emacs, the second line flags variable exlen as an unbound variable for some reasons
<jmasseo> do i need to use 'and' instead of 'in' to make that more semantically pleasing?
<jmasseo> no it has to be in
<jmasseo> because i'm referencing the value
<def`> It works as expected here.
<def`> The only problems I have are warnings, because you ignore the unit Lwt.t before the ;
<jmasseo> hmm i wonder why mine is complaining
<freehck> jmasseo: what is complaining? emacs or compiler?
<jmasseo> emacs
<jmasseo> compiler eats it fine
<def`> jmasseo: did you enable lwt extension >
<def`> ?
<jmasseo> i did
<jmasseo> it's probably operator error of some kind
<jmasseo> i must not have correctly enabled it somehow.
<jmasseo> does my .merlin need to be in every source folder
<jmasseo> or just my project root?
<def`> only in the root
<def`> you can check from emacs by clicking on the merlin name in the modeline
<jmasseo> i got lwt and lwt.syntax in there
<def`> EXT lwt
<jmasseo> ahhhh
<jmasseo> it threw an error initially and now it's fine
<jmasseo> thank you!
<def`> And as we are switching to ppx, these extensions will be deprecated. But right now it should work as expected :)
<jmasseo> right
<jmasseo> yeah merlin is pretty great.
<jmasseo> i only recently started poking emacs again. I"m a sysadmin by trade and vi is installed everywhere and emacs is installed nowhere.
<def`> It works the same in vim
<jmasseo> Right. I have not tried the vim integration yet.
<jmasseo> for the afforementioned reason, I've also been skiddish on customizing my vim because I want it to work the same everywhere.
<jmasseo> I finally added some features to my local system configs heh
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<jmasseo> i used to have lots of custom stuff, then I spent 8 years at Federal Reserve Bank and got used to doing everything bone stock no features no open source.
<jmasseo> no vim, only vi...
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<def`> :D sounds lovely
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<jmasseo> yeah never again
<jmasseo> I shall never do anything government related again
<jmasseo> worse place i ever worked, but it was hard to leave because i drew a paycheck and didn't have to do anything
<orbifx> lol
<ely-se> go sit there, work for someone else
<jmasseo> heh
<jmasseo> i did other things
<jmasseo> it was still awful
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<oh_camel> guys, what is the lwt-equivalent for Sys.command?
<oh_camel> or, is there any?
<companion_cube> Lwt_process, I think
<oh_camel> tnx
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<dalastboss> if i have a file called specific_impl.ml
<dalastboss> is there a way to assert that it ascribes to the signature general_interf.mli
<dalastboss> without making them have the same name
<dalastboss> oops have to go
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<Kakadu> Can I write in the _tags something like `<plugin/mkshow.ml.depends>: syntax(camlp5o)` ?
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<Drup> that doesn't really make sense.
<Kakadu> I want to pass `-syntax camlp5o` to make ocamldep finish
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<Kakadu> `true: syntax(camlp5o)` works though
<Kakadu> ah, without .depends
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<Algebr> say you do let foo = <some_list> in List.map f foo instead of List.map f foo. Does that let binding create an object on the minor heap and then has to garbage collect it, is it better from a performance/allocation perspect to just pass the list directly to the map? Is there any optimization in this case?
<companion_cube> in both cases foo will be on the heap
<companion_cube> but a let binding per se doesn't allocate anything
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<Kakadu> Can I copy some input files for tests to the _build directory using _tags?
<Kakadu> I suspect some option related to `traverse`....
<def`> Algebr: did you retry PPX with merlin?
<def`> jsoo*
<Algebr> def`: I did
<Algebr> its better but still incomplete
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<def`> what's incomplete ?
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<Algebr> def`: method name resolution, although type checking is correct. I will have to do a through check as well
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<def`> method name should work without problem, I suspect you are using wrong versions
<def`> however properties were not implemented until today, and that's still not ready for upstreaming
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<Algebr> def`: right, I have to double check all of this, thank you for the quick turn around on all these issues.
<Algebr> I almost rage quit jsoo, heh.
<def`> :D
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<Drup> on the other hand, you listen to aproximatly none of the advice to make all of it more tracktable
<Algebr> Drup: I posted two acknowledgements that you were right and I'm writing higher level OCaml interfaces instead.
<Algebr> In any case I hit the limit of just using the JavaScript ppx bindings approach, which sucked.
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