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<Kakadu_afk>
Folks, can we (with ocamlbuild) compile single source file into two executables (with different linking options)?
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<Kakadu>
I kind of have two parts of code with similar interface which need to be tested for performance
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<flux>
if not otherwise, then via intermediate file copy?
<Kakadu>
It will be great to find an example plugin somewhere
<reynir>
Maybe symlinks will work?
<sgronblo>
could someone explain to me why ocaml cant figure out that a type is correct if i have an explicit type in my .mli file but it can when i write the type right into my .ml file
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<Kakadu>
an example, plz
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<frefity>
does ocaml have built in unsigned 64 bit ints?
<companion_cube>
it's OCaml, we need to have several libs for everything
<reynir>
Maybe there's a nointeger library :v
<Drup>
honestly, I am not capable of juding the differences
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<freehck>
Hello. Is there some deduplication function which comparision fucntion in stdlib?
<freehck>
s/which/with/
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<lyxia>
List.sort_uniq
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<companion_cube>
oh, that's new
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<Algebr`>
nice, two integer libs, but one done by yallop
<Armael>
in my mind ctypes was using ocaml-stdint, so I'm puzzled
<hannes>
in case you don't want the magical wrapping behaviour of (unsigned) integers, I also did https://github.com/hannesm/usane where add/sub/mult exposes the carry bit explicitly
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<reynir>
Cool
<hannes>
(unreleased atm due to no time and resources to test on 32 bit)
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<Kakadu>
folks, do types like ` type 'a t = 'a ` have special name or something?
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<Drup>
identity ?
<yomimono>
phantom types?
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<Drup>
yomimono: that's not phantom
<Kakadu>
phantoms happen we don't use type parameter. There we don't use actual type's name
<Drup>
Kakadu: non recursive ? :D
<Kakadu>
Antiphantom ?????
<yomimono>
oh sorry, misread this :P
<Drup>
Kakadu: I mean, it's pretty much just a normal type, I fail to see what you are trying to characterize
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<Kakadu>
Drup: Do somebody it can be a normal type. But today I got a question like "Does OCaml really accept this definition?"
<Kakadu>
s/Do/For/
<Drup>
kakadu: why did the person though it wouldn't ?
<Kakadu>
lack of experience probably
<thizanne>
maybe you could just name it an alias type
<thizanne>
and explain why it's not that different from type 'a t = 'a list
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<freehck>
lyxia: thx
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<orbifx-m>
Does anyone know what kind of concurrent access Queue doesn't support?
<orbifx-m>
I'm confused given that OCaml is not able to run in parallel..
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<balod>
None: "Warning This module is not thread-safe: each Queue.t value must be protected from concurrent access (e.g. with a Mutex.t). Failure to do so can lead to a crash."
<orbifx-m>
But I've been running it with threads and it's been working fine.. For a long time as far as I know.
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<orbifx-m>
Do they mean C threads?
<Algebr`>
orbifx-m: what made that message? the compilers?
<orbifx-m>
I'm going to swtich to something else just to be safe, but I think there is something not right there with Queue.
<orbifx-m>
.. and that message
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<flux>
orbifx-m, you still have interrupting multithreading in ocaml
<flux>
orbifx-m, but the background threads just don't run
<flux>
orbifx-m, of course thread-buggy apps can work by chance.
<orbifx-m>
It's been working for too long. I suspect that I'm not doing something which actually causes it. Like interruptions; how do interruptions work?
<flux>
I think with signals
<flux>
do you have byterun or native?
<orbifx-m>
native
<orbifx-m>
Are those signals preemptive?
<balod>
Do you have Queue.t shared by Thread.t instances?
<orbifx-m>
Yes
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<orbifx-m>
As a way of passing info.
<orbifx-m>
But I think each thread either only reads or writes. Which may be why I'm getting away with it
<balod>
1 thread writing while another reads should be the perfect failure scenario...
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<edwin>
orbifx-m: have you look at the Event module?
<orbifx-m>
edwin: yes, after I became aware of that warning
<orbifx-m>
Can't say I found it very intuitive
<orbifx-m>
Lwt streams might be better
<edwin>
but are you using real threads or lwt threads?
<edwin>
if you are using Lwt then it is better to use its own primitives for synchronization
<orbifx-m>
Yeah, might end up using other features from it too, so thinking of going down that way
<balod>
Lwt threads would not trigger the concurrency problem, but yes using its own primitives would help the scheduler
<orbifx-m>
So are OCaml threads preemptive? From withing the OCaml runtime?
<orbifx-m>
Can their scheduler stop a thread abruptly?
<balod>
Are we talking stdlib Thread or Lwt thread ?
<orbifx-m>
stdlib Thread (I think Lwt are cooperative, so can't preempt, right?)
<flux>
Event is super interface once you find the Concurrent ML documentation about it
<flux>
but it has two flaws: no timeouts, no garbege-collected threads
<edwin>
if you create the thread with the Thread module then OCaml can switch execution from one thread to another (not exactly at arbitrary points, so the situation is not as bad as in C)
<flux>
so the idea is that you write code like (I don't remember if the functions are correct): let rec thread () = match Event.select [Event.wrap (Event.read channel) (fun msg -> `Channel msg); .. ] with .. loop () .. possibly building abstractions for asynchronous message queues so you don't need to Event.sync inside the handler loop
<orbifx-m>
edwin: so does it basically have "yield" littered around the standard librarly?
<flux>
and you can build your own Events with Event.wrap. but this part is where it's a bit limited.. you can build timeouts but they are horribly inefficient and horrible ;)
<balod>
edwin: event for native code? I thought they would be unix threads
<edwin>
I think for native threads it uses signals
<edwin>
or at least I was watching my program with strace and it kept getting signals periodically? (50ms or so?)
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<edwin>
let me see if I can find some documentation on this
<orbifx-m>
Ok, OCamlUnix says that std threads are preemptive and don't have to use yield
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<orbifx-m>
I wonder what Lwt does with the stack when it comes to a yield.
<flux>
in any case, anydaynow we might have ocaml-multicore and Queue will be even more unsafe! though better message passing primitives will arise.
<orbifx-m>
balod: it's a bit much at the momement, need to get on with implementation
<orbifx-m>
but I'm curious so if anyone knows, would like to know.
<aantron>
orbifx-m: lwt threads don't have their own stacks
<aantron>
a "thread" in lwt is just a reference cell that can contain a value, an exception, or the state "not finished yet"
<aantron>
and that can have follow-on threads attached to it (usually by the bind operation)
<aantron>
follow-on functions* actually
<aantron>
so that if you do a bind on an lwt thread, if the thread already has a value, the function gets that value. if it is sleeping, the function is called in the future, when the thread gets a value
<orbifx-m>
aantron: thanks. So it's like the program "re-composes" it's self at every yield?
<aantron>
sort of. it's like a big soup of continuations, where the threads are some kind of "synchronization points" between the continuations
<aantron>
if you do a yield lwt roughly speaking just tries to find another continuation to run
<aantron>
"threads" above being these reference cells
<orbifx-m>
Cool thanks. That does it for now. I want ot look into the details more.
<edwin>
https://ocaml.github.io/ocamlunix/signals.html#sec86 "On receiving a signal, OCaml records the receipt of the signal but the signal handling function will only be executed at certain checkpoints. These are frequent enough to provide the illusion of asynchronous execution. The checkpoints typically occur during allocations, loop controls, or interactions with the system (particularly system calls)."
<edwin>
that is what I could find on how the preemption works for threads, but when writing code I think its safe to assume that your execution can be interrupted and another thread run, unless you use Lwt where you are in control of those points via the bind operator
<orbifx-m>
yeah they are preemptive. Found it in the same guide, in threads.
<orbifx-m>
Thanks
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<soupault>
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<orbifx>
any implementations of Set recommended over and above the std Set?
<companion_cube>
probably not, they are quite good
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<orbifx>
thank companion_cube
<orbifx>
thanks*
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