<aw->
beneroth: wanted to ask what are the main differences between Scheme and Pil
<beneroth>
sorry, I don't know scheme, can't tell
<Regenaxer>
Scheme is very different imho
<beneroth>
it is compiled
<Regenaxer>
There is not even T or NIL
<Regenaxer>
And it has no real symbol
<Regenaxer>
s
<beneroth>
"ts minimalist philosophy has also caused wide divergence between practical implementations, so much that the Scheme Steering Committee calls it "the world's most unportable programming language" and "a family of dialects" rather than a single language."
<beneroth>
s/ts/its
<beneroth>
lexical scoping
<Regenaxer>
What I find the worst implementation detail is that evaluation order is not guaranteed to be left -> right
<Regenaxer>
So you need to put everything into variables
<beneroth>
yeah just read it, a scheme implementation can choose in which order it evaluates arguments
<Regenaxer>
This is a big drawback I think
<beneroth>
so.. what is similar to picolisp? focus on minimalism (though picolispers would probably say scheme is not radical enough in that prospect) ?
<Regenaxer>
Only the parentheses
<Regenaxer>
Imagine pil without the universal NIL
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<beneroth>
scheme seems to be more of a language family, consisting of various different incompatible versions and implementations, is that right?
<mtsd>
Good morning everyone
<Regenaxer>
Perhaps. I have not studied the details
<Regenaxer>
Good morning mtsd
<aw->
i see
<aw->
ok thanks Regenaxer and beneroth
<mtsd>
Good morning Regenaxer. Is everything good, christmas approaching and everything?
<Regenaxer>
Yep :)
<beneroth>
good morning mtsd :)
<clacke[m]>
There is a compatible subset that most Schemes implement, and after the r6rs debacle I think most Schemes that are under active development support almost all of r7rs.
<mtsd>
Good morning beneroth!
<clacke[m]>
But then there are the SRFIs, and people want to use them, and then you need to check if your Scheme supports the SRFIs you want.
<beneroth>
I see this as one of the main risks for the future of picolisp, that it may diverge in multiple versions when eventually Regenaxer stops maintaining it.
<clacke[m]>
of course for real life work you want FFI and other interactions with the surrounding system, and you're pretty much implementation-specific
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<beneroth>
on the other hand, we are a small enough group that we should be able to get our stuff together ;)
<beneroth>
clacke[m], interesting, thank you :)
<clacke[m]>
yeah, not enough people to bear the cost of a fork
<beneroth>
well maybe not forking of the linux version at first, but on the border of the different picolisp editions
<beneroth>
they're already forks, kinda
<beneroth>
just needs coordination
<clacke[m]>
Picolisp is the anti-Scheme LISP. Answering what's different becomes "oh, where to begin"
<beneroth>
oh okay
<beneroth>
I would have guessed it more similar to picolisp than e.g. common lisp
<Regenaxer>
clacke[m], right!
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, I think CL is closer
<beneroth>
seems so
<beneroth>
my initial reason for going into pil vs. CL (before knowing anything about the language concepts) was the fact that CL comes in incompatible variations.
<mtsd>
The minimalism, the builtin database and the nice libraries got me hooked :)
<Regenaxer>
variations we have with mini and ersatz too
<mtsd>
I also dabbled in Common Lisp first
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, T
<clacke[m]>
direct memory access, trivial C library calls, dynamic scope, built-in IPC, db and logic language, no macros ...
<clacke[m]>
I was going to say, yeah
<clacke[m]>
less incompatible than Scheme
<clacke[m]>
as CL is a more comprehensive spec
<beneroth>
it is? wow.
<beneroth>
haha
<tankfeeder>
Regenaxer: can you help me with co-co.l ?
<Regenaxer>
I'm very busy these days, I can't really concentrate at the moment
<mtsd>
Work projects, Regenaxer?
<Regenaxer>
yes, too many
<Regenaxer>
already lagging behind schedule
<Regenaxer>
sorry
<mtsd>
Congratulations! Not to being too busy, but to getting work sent your way. I know things were slow for a bit..
<mtsd>
Hope us in the community can help out, answering questions in IRC etc
<Regenaxer>
Thanks!
<Regenaxer>
I need PilBox, but ran into some problems
<Regenaxer>
So I'm trying to debug, but cant find the reasons
<beneroth>
specific platform problem, or general pilbox problem?
<Regenaxer>
startup
<beneroth>
oha
<Regenaxer>
connection problems to the server
<Regenaxer>
it worked before
<Regenaxer>
but cannot find any chance recently which may cause this
<Regenaxer>
confused ;)
<Regenaxer>
It is very early in the startup, so almost impossible to debug normally
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<mtsd>
Difficult
<Regenaxer>
We had meetings with sim logistics in Holland (beneroth knows) and the spanish firemen last week. I must continue these, and I need pilbox for btg. All three projects are hanging now
<beneroth>
maybe you can tether via notebook (instead of router wlan) and than use wireshark or tcdump or so to view the traffic. if that would help.
<beneroth>
three major projects at once.
<Regenaxer>
hmm, no, it is all localhost on the device
<Regenaxer>
T
* beneroth
knows the feeling
<mtsd>
So do I..
<Regenaxer>
btg alone should need my focus
<beneroth>
ok. let us know if we can help somehow, debugging pilbox on our devices or such
<Regenaxer>
thanks!
<Regenaxer>
It must be something stupid
<Regenaxer>
but I'm hanging since several days on this now
<Regenaxer>
Thanks anyway, no worries!
<beneroth>
I might be able to support you with working time in January (if there is something to delegate), but I'm pretty sure you have solved everything until then.
<Regenaxer>
Let's hope so :)
<beneroth>
oh you surely will solve it :)
<mtsd>
I have not moved over to pilbox yet, still using the 'traditional' Linux/fvwm/laptop setup.
<mtsd>
Can't help very much with pilbox, I'm afraid
<Regenaxer>
np :)
<Regenaxer>
just takes time
<beneroth>
I remember the ARM port "this will never work" - "best version ever" - and the time you needed for that was ridiculously short for such a project ;)
<beneroth>
You will do it!
<beneroth>
drink tea, have walks, do it :)
<Regenaxer>
yeah, but sometimes silly little things take so much time
<beneroth>
oh yes
<beneroth>
so T
<mtsd>
You will solve it, Regenaxer
<mtsd>
Frustrating, perhaps, but you will solve it
<Regenaxer>
hmm, no idea
* beneroth
does awkward cheerleader movements
<Regenaxer>
:)
<beneroth>
bbl, need to fetch some more caffeine
<Regenaxer>
yes, that's recommended
<rob_w>
problems with your new server Regenaxer ?
<Regenaxer>
Hi rob_w! No, works perfectly!
<Regenaxer>
the udev problem disappeared by itself ;) No idea why
<beneroth>
mtsd, ha, didn't know them! wow, this sounds really good!
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* beneroth
is searching for a second datacenter provider
<beneroth>
I will probably try them out, thank you mtsd !
<beneroth>
very good pricing (for switzerland)
<miskatonic>
what is a datacenter provider?
<beneroth>
well, if they're physically in switzerland I will try them out. not if their just reselling aws
<mtsd>
I am thinking of switching to them as well
<mtsd>
I think they are, physically, in Switzerland. They do support the devuan project too, if I'm not mistaken
<beneroth>
miskatonic, I don't know what the correct term is, probably just "hoster" anyway. I mean a company which offers VPS, physical dedicated root servers, or even rack space and server housing
<miskatonic>
is that what Strato does for Regenaxer?
<beneroth>
very happy with them, very reliable, I recommend
<beneroth>
I want to have at least second provider and split the productive systems up. and mirror each application to the other datacenter.
<beneroth>
so even if one of the companies goes down I can manage.
<beneroth>
(e.g. DDOS blackmailing or such shit)
<beneroth>
I currently use other datacenters too, but I'm not so happy with them and can't really recommend them.
<mtsd>
I am using an inexpensive VPS at serverforyou.de
<beneroth>
well the stuff I run there I sold to customers with the obligation that hosting is fully in switzerland
<mtsd>
Not running very mission critical myself, and only my own stuff at the moment
<mtsd>
Ah, same obligation here in Sweden, with many customers
<beneroth>
outside of switzerland the prices are better.
<beneroth>
quality within switzerland is good, though.
<beneroth>
surveillance/security topic.. well the meaningfulness of hosting within switzerland is diminishing as we also implement surveillance state bullshit (even voted for by population via direct democracy)
<beneroth>
I guess I have to review that eventually
<beneroth>
law-wise it is easier for me to keep the stuff in the same country in which my business operates :)
<mtsd>
I can imagine. Hosting here can be quite expensive, so I went outside for my own stuff
<beneroth>
I operate some business critical stuff (for my customers) and also databases with personal data.
<beneroth>
I'm very happy with nine.ch
<miskatonic>
if it is cheap, ther eis probably no control at all over where it is hosted, and who can spy on the data traffic
<mtsd>
Different situation, in that case. The ones I have written Pil applications for have their own server
<beneroth>
miskatonic, T
<beneroth>
miskatonic, but there are also major scaling benefits at play.. larger companies can much cheaper buy/build server infrastructure
<beneroth>
they have cheaper prices themselves as the buy what they need in larger volumes, and larger volumes gives more discount
<beneroth>
hosting providers in germany often do actually operate their servers in france or so
<beneroth>
german secret service BND takes backup of internet for NSA (e.g. at the important Frankfurt internet hub), and they were caught spying at european and german targets for the nsa.
<mtsd>
Everyone spies on everyone else these days ;)
<mtsd>
In a much larger scale than before
<beneroth>
that is no excuse and makes it worse
<mtsd>
Yes, exactly
<beneroth>
yeah, they took the snowden revelations as a wishlist
<mtsd>
Making me feel like an old luddite who wants to unplug everything. Back to pencil, paper and books! ;)
<beneroth>
swiss secret service was not yet caught at overly collaborating with nsa, but they surely would like to play the big boys game. but afaik they lack the skills/resources. a few years ago there was a scandal as their IT guy for backups tried to sell a backup of their data to third parties (but he acted so stupid/weird that actually his swiss bank got suspicious and triggered an investigation)
<beneroth>
mtsd, aye
<mtsd>
Here we have government agencies who outsource all kinds of sensitive data. No need to spy, since the data is out already, haha
<beneroth>
it is a bit unclear (to me) how much leverage foreign secret services (especially usa) have in CH. I don't think that big illegal collaboration (like in Germany or Sweden) happens, but it might be that foreign forces can operate here a bit more freely than one would think. but that is all just guesswork, not much indices or debate about such things here.
<beneroth>
mtsd, yeah, pretty clever :)
<beneroth>
like governments using windows with automatic updates (equals backdoor) :)
<mtsd>
Swedish secret police said they have gone back to using typewriters, putting the papers in vaults and burning the colorbands from the typewriters, for extra sensitive data :)
<mtsd>
I liked that story
<beneroth>
yeah, same story is around for the Russians.
<beneroth>
but.. I don't think that is meaningful. typewriters with spying devices in it were pretty common before computers came up ;)
<beneroth>
and you can make sidechannel attacks on them..e.g. catching the sounds
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<clacke[m]>
is Switzerland present in any peacekeeping operations in Afghanistan or the like?
<clacke[m]>
that's Sweden's excuse for wanting to trade data with the Amis.
<beneroth>
afaik not. the biggest activity is peacekeeping in Kosovo afaik.
<clacke[m]>
ah, but that's included in my wide scope
<clacke[m]>
gotta defend the troops against Serb and Kosovar terrorists
<beneroth>
Switzerland is not part of NATO. any soldier deployments happen strictly and exclusively within a UN peacekeeping blue helmets mission.
<beneroth>
Switzerlands neutrality is much more serious than the Swedish one ;)
<clacke[m]>
sure, Sweden is the same
<miskatonic>
and much more serious than network neutrality
<beneroth>
no, their in NATO, and they got caught several times on unlawful operations with the US.
<beneroth>
Sweden is a close secret service collaborator of the us services.
<clacke[m]>
yes, Sweden has been officially inofficially in bed with NATO for decades, and we're in PFP and stuff, sending submarines to the US for them to hunt, etc
<clacke[m]>
but Sweden never deploys with NATO unless it's UN blue helmet
<beneroth>
ah okay
<beneroth>
I have to differ there then, thanks for the correction!
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<beneroth>
clacke[m], afaik and as much as I can find, Switzerland has only peacekeepers deployed in Kosovo
<beneroth>
it is forbidden for swiss citizens to be part of any foreign military
<mtsd>
Except in the Vatican? ;)
<beneroth>
yeah vatican is a special case, legally defined as "police" and therefore ok ;)
<mtsd>
With such a fantastic uniform, an exception must be made, I think
<beneroth>
this one is excluded from the law.. they want to keep the tradition from 1506 ;)
<mtsd>
Police or not
<beneroth>
well in past centuries the swiss people were all over europe as mercenaries
<beneroth>
that is another reason, beside neutrality, to forbid citizens foreign military service, to many times in history where battles fought by two hired swiss armies against each other ;)
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<clacke[m]>
In Sweden one of the few ways you can lose citizenship is if you fight for another army. But in practice it isn't used. And it could probably only be applied if you have dual citizenship.
<beneroth>
I think we had one or two cases of swiss citizens serving in US mercenaries in recent years. Afaik one was imprisoned instantly when he entered Switzerland.
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<mtsd>
Interesting, I did not know that beneroth
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<clacke[m]>
In the ISIS case, you can get tried for crimes again humanity and such, if you have done such things working for them. Some people have said we should try them for treason, as the Swedish army have been training Kurd Peshmerga, and that makes fighting for ISIS sort of fighting against a Swedish ally.
<clacke[m]>
People fighting for the US or for the Kurds or other aligned forces certainly wouldn't be tried, even if legally they could be.