<viaken>
Trying to encourage victims to come forward while also protecting from false accusations is a tricky problem.
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<beneroth>
T
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<anjaa>
false accusations aren't as common as you seem to think
<anjaa>
there's research on this
<anjaa>
far greater a problem is the fact that men don't believe women when they come forward about abuse
<anjaa>
and i am always suspiscious about people who, in light of hearing about sexual abuse against women, automatically focus on false accusations
<anjaa>
that is part of the problem
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<anjaa>
plus correct spelling
<beneroth>
T about the spelling
<beneroth>
I don't think this are two opposite sites.
<beneroth>
telling half the children that they're likely to become predators seems (to me) likely to create some predators.
<beneroth>
I can't agree with counting bad behaviour as "being manly".
<beneroth>
and telling people to stop something usually doesn't work without showing them a better way.
<beneroth>
And is the problem in fact that "(only!) men don't believe woman when they come forward about abuse" ?
<anjaa>
i never said 'only'
<anjaa>
men are the predators so why shouldn't the focus be on them?
<beneroth>
you implied it by writing "men" instead of "people" I find
<anjaa>
in most cases, at least
<beneroth>
there are also female predators. why focus on gender/sex when you could focus on predators?
<anjaa>
it's mostly, but not only, men
<beneroth>
we want a solution for all cases, no?
<beneroth>
if the problem is only men not believing victims, then we the solution is easy, staff the authorities/services which are responsible to prosecute this cases with females only, yeah?
<beneroth>
In my mind, the best tools we have available to fight sexual abuse is education (yes, this also means sex ed for children, so they are able to recognize an assault against them as such), reinforce positive role models so children (so boys) can grow into them, and foster a culture where ignorance and connivance of shitty behaviour is not tolerated
<anjaa>
you can't educate a problem away if you don't recognise the main factor
<beneroth>
that all this many many high public cases which are currently going through the media were completely undetected by third parties for years and even decades, that in that cases only the victims and the abuser ever knew of them, this I find highly unrealistic. so probably some people knew and never acted, because it was more convient
<anjaa>
and you don't end men's abuse of women (and other men) by saying 'but women are also abusers!)
<beneroth>
no
<beneroth>
but neither do you end it by telling all men that they are (likely) abusers. you end abuse by definitely exclude it from the role model what a "man" is and foster a culture where any kind of abuse is not taken lightly.
<anjaa>
the fact that you want to have this conversation instead of discussing what you, as a fellow man, can do to help with this really large problem, is a part of the problem. you can't say that masculinity and ideas of manhood and manliness and masculinity isn't part of the problem when it obviously is
<anjaa>
you seem more interested in protecting men from feeling attacked than women who are actually and physically attacked
<beneroth>
bullshit
<beneroth>
why do you interpret this?
<beneroth>
why are even weighting this against each other? can't we do both?
<beneroth>
s/why are/why are you
<anjaa>
because you keep saying that it isn't fair to men to tell them that they are a part of the problem when in fact they are
<beneroth>
no, I nowhere said that
<anjaa>
because you have to start with the bigger issue
<anjaa>
not the smaller and more convenient to point out issue
<anjaa>
well it's my interpretation, not a direct quote
<beneroth>
I don't see a need for a strict ordering of issues and why one should not try to solve them all from the start. by that logic you should first solve the problem of many people dying each day for human-made reasons (e.g. refugees in the Mediterranean sea) before protecting peoples sexual integrity.
<beneroth>
weighting such kinds of issues against each other is not useful in any way I say.
<beneroth>
yeah you assume me being your opponent when I'm not.
<anjaa>
sexual abuse against women is a more pressing issue than false allegations against men
<beneroth>
agreed. I nowhere disagreed, did I?
<anjaa>
sounded like it
<beneroth>
lets not trhow the baby out with the bathwater.
<beneroth>
well your problem if you interpret it this way.
<anjaa>
then why did you focus so hard on false accusations against men?
<beneroth>
to find a better solution to protect females.
<anjaa>
from what?
<beneroth>
abuse? what were we talking about?
<anjaa>
how does that protect women?
<beneroth>
you don't understand what I attempted to say.
<anjaa>
about 2-8 % of reported rapes are estimated to be false claims. how does focusin on them help the remaining 92-98 %?
<beneroth>
I'm not about focusing on them.
<beneroth>
I'm about "can't we find a 100% approach"
<beneroth>
you seem to rule this out.
<beneroth>
You sound like "lets fight against men". I want to say "lets fight abuse.". talking to men is a big part of it, so you want the men liking to talk with you, so defining them as the problem will not help.
<beneroth>
or you are consequential on your approach and get rid of all men.
<anjaa>
same research shows that there was probably sexual abuse somewhere behind most false accusations, plus trauma and mental health issues
<anjaa>
extremely few false accusations were shown to be malicious
<beneroth>
yeah. some research shows that the worst (often male) abusers where abused themselves as children.
<beneroth>
one of the worst female child abusers I ever read about is one of my most favourite authors.
<anjaa>
let's fight against men who abuse. i don't see how that is a controversial statement, since it will also most likely lessen abuse from women
<beneroth>
doesn't make her novels less in quality. but the quality of her novels does also not excuse anything.
<beneroth>
well why should any men help you in your fight?
<anjaa>
because it's the right thing to do
<beneroth>
that is like trying to convince nazis to become better humans by saying them that they're assholes
<beneroth>
doesn't work. you convince them by pick them up at the point in life there are now, and guide them to your ideal. not by demonizing them, that only fosters that they don't want to talk with you.
<anjaa>
and anyway it is up to other men to educate men about not being abusive, rapist arseholes. it isn't the women's duty, it's the men's
<beneroth>
yeah this will surely solve it, shovelling the responsibilities to someone else and then whining when somebody else doesn't held the same priorities or duties.
<beneroth>
most men are educated by women.
<anjaa>
telling women to educate men is shovelling the responsibilitt to someone else
<beneroth>
no, I say lets get rid of this bullshit of splitting this into a men/woman issue. make it a responsibility for all humans.
<anjaa>
alright, get to work on it then
<beneroth>
ok, a question for you :D
<beneroth>
what can I do in my current circumstances beside spreading awareness and trying to find a good understanding by reading and discuss?
<beneroth>
concretely
<anjaa>
don't laugh at rape/gay/trans jokes when you hear them, call people out when they do
<anjaa>
don't use femaleness as a synonym for bad
<beneroth>
yo easy I already do this. why don't you assume that people don't do it?
<beneroth>
yeah, same to you, don't use maleness as synonym for bad, will not help your cause.
<beneroth>
arg my spelling is really shit, sorry :(
<anjaa>
society doesn't teach people in general that masculinity is bad. it does, however, teach people in general that femininity is.
<beneroth>
I experienced it differently, but yeah I live somewhere else than you and grow up differently. (not saying that my situation is typical for other people where I live).
<beneroth>
in my personal view we should get completely rid of gender roles but I can see that this standpoint is quite a bit too radical for most people.
<beneroth>
anjaa, don't you live in Sweden? did you grew up there or not? I'm a bit surprised by your statement that in Swedish society femininity is generally viewed as bad.
<beneroth>
maybe I mixed something up.
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<beneroth>
also, feel free to ask me stuff. don't assume without asking, it often results in attacking the wrong people for the wrong causes. and when you attack people then they often don't want to help you, however how good your quest is.
<beneroth>
s/however/doesn't matter
<beneroth>
and please give me some advice, if you have others beside "behave as a decent human being".
<beneroth>
I have currently not the money/time to invest myself into serious political campaigns or help organisations. Working on changing that, but will take years. So for the moment I stick to "behave as a decent human being", researching (as I like it) and thinking to figure out good concepts.
<beneroth>
ideas to optimize this are gladly welcome.
<beneroth>
tankfeeder, cool. I don't get the riddle tbh ^^
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<anjaa>
i grew up in sweden, yeah, and i agree about gender roles. femininity being viewed as something negative is a general problem, not necessarily confined to sweden
<anjaa>
and you&d be surprised how many men don't understand basic decency
<anjaa>
i don't know, discuss the issue with other men. i think that is a good place to start.
<tankfeeder>
feature: stops scan line if duplicate found.
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<beneroth>
quite shorter than the CL code
<beneroth>
this code I can understand :D
<beneroth>
nice solution
<tankfeeder>
Regenaxer: comments ?
<beneroth>
he seems to be away, already most of the day
<beneroth>
anjaa, so I do, both with men and women and people in between. the more different perspectives the better to understand something, I find.
<beneroth>
qualitatively, the interesting aspects are not the (what I find) obvious ones but the difficult, controversial ones. those can produce insights.
<beneroth>
that is the reason why I'm not much interested the topics with you on which we obviously hold similar opinions. nothing to gain from that beside (currently very fashionable) to pat each other on the shoulders and tell each other how great the others opinions are. this in-group virtue signalling I find boring. doesn't help to solve anything.
<beneroth>
s/interested/interested to discuss
<Regenaxer>
tankfeeder: Cool!
<beneroth>
it seems to me that a great number of idealists spend more time with congratulation each other on their opinions instead of doing something more useful.
<beneroth>
partly necessary behaviour to socialise, to keep an in-group together. but this will not make other people join the cause.
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<cess11_>
beneroth: so the important thing is your amusement, not the systematic everyday male terror of women you somehow manage to be unaware of.
<beneroth>
how the hell do you come to this conclusion?
<beneroth>
yes, I claim there is no "systematic everyday male terror of women" happening in my direct social environment. How do you claim to being able to state anything about my direct social environment beside this IRC channel?
<cess11_>
you're reducing a fight for justice to mere fanaticism that bores you, as you wrote here recently
<beneroth>
if you see "systematic everyday male terror of women" in this IRC channel - yes I'm not aware of it. Tell it!
<beneroth>
so you claim this discussion in this programming channel is a "fight for justice" ? because that is the only thing I wrote a opinion about, and even that was only about a part of this discussion.
<cess11_>
right, so it was even personally directed against my wife
<cess11_>
instead of discussing the issue she was discussing you dismissed it as boring in-group signalling
<beneroth>
no, I only expressed my opinion on her opinions see wrote here. if I'm not allowed to do that, than you can't claim any right to do the same the other way. if you or she feels offended by it.. tell me how.
<beneroth>
yeah, so I signalled I don't want to further discuss it. doesn't stop her or anyone here to continue to discuss it.
<beneroth>
what "systematic everyday male terror of women" is happening in this IRC channel?
<cess11_>
i just showed an example
<beneroth>
me disagreeing with an opinion of anjaa is hardly "systematic", nor "every day", nor has it anything to do with her being a woman.
<beneroth>
I think your example does not qualify
<cess11_>
i don't care
<cess11_>
you're dismissive and rude about women's experiences and claim that your particular experience should somehow be the norm
<beneroth>
tell me concrete examples on the first, so I can learn and improve.
<beneroth>
I nowhere claimed that my particular experience ins the norm. Don't put words in my mouth.
<cess11_>
you do. you think the important thing is how it looks to you, what you can see
<beneroth>
I especially tried to stress that this is my personal experience by adding elements like "I find" and "I think" and "not saying that my situation is typical for other people where I live"
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, right
<beneroth>
thx
<Regenaxer>
This discussion is going bizarre
<beneroth>
T
<cess11_>
your experience was never the subject until you made it that way
* beneroth
is unsure if it would be more constructive to stop this discussion or to go through it to possibly come to a resolution
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, tankfeeder and others: please tell us when we annoy you and overly use this channel for a discussion this channel is not meant for
<beneroth>
cess11_, sexual abuse in Sweden was never a subject until you made it that way. apple's root login security issue was no subject in this channel until I made it this way. changing the subject is allowed. bringing up a subject with might interest others here is allowed. ignoring that subject or changing it to different one is completely legitimate.
<beneroth>
you disagree?
<Regenaxer>
Not annoying yet, though not really on topic ;)
<beneroth>
this channel is about discussing picolisp and directly related topics. it is RESERVED for this.
<beneroth>
when other topics come up (which I like) we can discuss it here as long as it doesn't harm the intended use of this channel.
<beneroth>
and there is no requirement for any participants to stay on this off-topic topics or any necessity to take part in it.
<beneroth>
I would agree with your notion if we would be discussing this in a environment where the purpose and explicit topic is the "systematic everyday male terror of women".
<beneroth>
this is not the case here in any way, so I allow myself to change the topic to another off-topic one.
<beneroth>
and if no "systematic everyday male terror of women" is happening here, than this is no place here to fight this fight. this will not improve womans situations or bring any justice. so yes, therefore I see such discussions in here as a "thing for amusement", as this channel here is not changing anything beside being a suboptimal channel to distribute ones opinions.
<beneroth>
going into politics, changing the law, contributing or working in organisations which do something (e.g. we have here in switzerland organisations who run secret houses to which attacked females can escape to), this has an effect.
<beneroth>
some talk over this channel? seriously you believe you improve the world by talking here against abuse of women? if so, you betray yourself and should reconsider your options.
<beneroth>
make an informative website over the topic. if you use picolisp for it, this channel is the right place to talk about the technical implementation. other than that discussing such things here is "amusement", including your activities I say.
<beneroth>
yes, I personally find the (still legitimate) viewpoint that such mere "talk" does any significant good comparable to hands-on actions/efforts stupid and silly. if you anjaa and cess11_ seriously hold this viewpoints then yes, you can legitimately feel personally attacked by me. has nothing to do with your gender identifications or sex or other qualities you have. and I assure you that I don't think lower of your other views, opinions and achievements, b
<beneroth>
ut this singular specific viewpoint I honestly can't take serious and I think it damages other more meaningful efforts if one equals talking with doing.
<beneroth>
for people who claim to fight for more respect between humans I found you assume pretty much without having any background information nor posing and direct questions.
<beneroth>
s/and/any
<beneroth>
You make the impression that you believe I'm a nerdy white boy sitting in a basement who has only similar single-minded male friends. And I don't care if you believe that, I don't care much about what other people believe of me. This assumptions damages only your ability to understand me, and without understanding me (anyone), you seriously damage your ability to convince me (anyone) of your viewpoints.
<beneroth>
In case that convincing other people from your viewpoint is not the general goal of this discussion, then it follows that this whole discussion is just virtue signalling or whatever, and not part of a serious attempt to improve the world.
<beneroth>
bloat and waste.
<beneroth>
In case that convincing other people from your viewpoint and/or to gain insight is your goal, then let me advise you that you used a suboptimal approach here for this.
<beneroth>
what you make of this is on to you.
<beneroth>
(e.g. you could asked me about my environment. what kinds of female, male, transgender and other people, which cultures and communities, play a role in it. you didn't. you just assumed. not very scientific).
<Regenaxer>
afp
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<beneroth>
is it normal behaviour that "$ pil @lib/http.l @lib/xhtml.l @lib/form.l --server 8080 project.l +" cannot be stopped with Ctrl+C because of the debug mode (" +") ?
<beneroth>
Regenaxer?
<beneroth>
(I witnessed the same with other pil server apps.. )
<Regenaxer>
ret
<Regenaxer>
It depends
<Regenaxer>
Ctrl-C drops into debug interrupt
<Regenaxer>
And it depends whether a child is running or not
<Regenaxer>
Without child, the server exits immediately
<Regenaxer>
Otherwise the child gets the ^C and goes into debug interrupt
<beneroth>
well in my case it doesn't react to Ctrl+C (so it probably never receives it)
<Regenaxer>
Does it show the REPL prompt ':'?
<beneroth>
when it is a server with sessions, so (app) in the beginning, it works after the first child process was created and terminated
<beneroth>
no
<beneroth>
not until the first child process is created
<Regenaxer>
hmm, then ^C should terminate it
<beneroth>
works fine when no + is supplied, so not in debug mode
<Regenaxer>
Is your tty set to send sigint for ^C?
<beneroth>
ok, so this seems to be an issue with my setup and not a common thing
<beneroth>
so.. it appears to be received by the pil binary..
<Regenaxer>
yes, read(0, "\3", 8192)
<Regenaxer>
3 is ^C
<Regenaxer>
it is read
<Regenaxer>
instead of generating a signal
<Regenaxer>
like a normal char
* beneroth
marvels at your knowledge :)
<beneroth>
autsch
<Regenaxer>
easy, A B C -> 1 2 3 ...
<beneroth>
so.. bug in my picolisp setup or bug in picolisp itself or what?
<Regenaxer>
I think the terminal
<Regenaxer>
oh
<Regenaxer>
I grepped for "[cmd -args] "
<Regenaxer>
it is in lib/eled.l
<beneroth>
lulz?
<Regenaxer>
I don't know it
<Regenaxer>
the emacs version
<beneroth>
ah right
<beneroth>
yeah I probably have (em) enabled
<Regenaxer>
it intercepts ^C it seems
<beneroth>
ah ah ah
<beneroth>
this might be the difference in my setup to the standard one!
<beneroth>
hear hear!
<Regenaxer>
# 'C-c' (Ctrl-c) keymap
<Regenaxer>
call shell-command with arguments
<Regenaxer>
Emacs standard?
<beneroth>
well Ctrl+C is one of two basic key combinations for everything in emacs, yes.
<beneroth>
didn't know (em) supported that stuff honestly xD
<beneroth>
ok
<beneroth>
so I should be able to get rid of using @lib/eled.l by evaluating (vi) without arguments, right?
<beneroth>
this I did, and now the behaviour changed, but still not matches the expectations :D
<beneroth>
$ pil +
<beneroth>
: (key)
<beneroth>
!
<beneroth>
strace:
<Regenaxer>
Best if you remove .pil/editor
<Regenaxer>
safest
<beneroth>
ah okay
<beneroth>
I do that!
<Regenaxer>
yes, ! is the right behavior
<Regenaxer>
debug break
<Regenaxer>
Removing .pil/editor is "factory reset" :)
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
yes, now the app example also works as documented!
<beneroth>
ha!
<Regenaxer>
cool
<beneroth>
so @lib/eled.l is bad in that aspect. good we found out! another riddle solved.
<beneroth>
thank you Regenaxer :)
* beneroth
will not use (em) anymore
<Regenaxer>
yes, good to know
<beneroth>
yes, *someone* should look into this ^^
<beneroth>
but not high priority I believe ^^
<Regenaxer>
There is an explanation in lib/eled.l # Switch Crtl-C off
<beneroth>
ah
<beneroth>
lol
<beneroth>
ok so works as documented xD
<Regenaxer>
It is not wrong I think
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<Regenaxer>
(call "stty" "intr" "^R")
<Regenaxer>
So ^R should work instead :)
<beneroth>
well it is bad that this is complete at odds with the picolisp documentation and tutorials, especially the app tutorial :)
<Regenaxer>
true
<beneroth>
and I would say the picolisp documentation/tutorial has more weight here. on the other hand, setting (em) is a active user action.
<beneroth>
and yeah, no good solution if (em) indeed supports Ctrl-c
<Regenaxer>
yes, and only for specialists
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
I guess the usage of Ctrl+C in this way in emacs might be older than the standard usage of Ctrl+C
<beneroth>
even when Ctrl+C probably came up with tcp / telnet implementation, I would guess? :D
<Regenaxer>
I don't think so
<Regenaxer>
^C is older I believe
<Regenaxer>
was already in CP/M
<beneroth>
CP/M is from 1974, emacs is from 1972
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<beneroth>
ha! :P
<beneroth>
old shit :D
<Regenaxer>
ha, true
<Regenaxer>
For Emacs as an editor and env it is better not to terminate on ^C
<beneroth>
my conclusion: beneroths issue was found and solved. user mistake. no need to change something.
<beneroth>
agreed?
<Regenaxer>
Other editors used ^C for navigation
<Regenaxer>
agreed
<beneroth>
yeah the lack of explicit standards on keyboard shortcut is a real weakness for the field of user interaction
<Regenaxer>
It makes perfect sense as it is
<beneroth>
afaik there are no standards beside de-facto historically grown ones, or is there?
<beneroth>
yes, agreed!
<Regenaxer>
yep
<Regenaxer>
it is different everywhere
<Regenaxer>
Apple-Key :)
<beneroth>
you improved my life by resolving this longstanding (low-priority) issue I had :)
<beneroth>
yeah
<beneroth>
it is all horribkle
<beneroth>
(em) is also calling (raw), which (vi) seems not to do
<Regenaxer>
(raw) is just returning the current value
<beneroth>
T, eled.l does (raw T)
<beneroth>
and (raw T) tends to mess things up sometimes in my experience :)
* beneroth
never really worked with eled.l :(
<Regenaxer>
(raw T) is needed for line editing, but it is done implicitly by (key)
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* beneroth
is finally doing another approach to truly learn form.l framework :)
<Regenaxer>
Good! :)
<beneroth>
works much better once one is fluent in picolisp :)
<Regenaxer>
Yes, it is heavy diet
<beneroth>
it is probably easier to learn without prior experience with other common web frameworks
<beneroth>
the common web frameworks never managed to abstract the server/client separation away (as form.l does!!!)
<beneroth>
best they can do is MVC, and MVC is a rather limited concept. works for simple cases, but rather quickly falls apart for any real applications.
<beneroth>
I would say the attack surface on a typical pil app server is much smaller than on a typical webserver using common web technology, so attacker gaining a copy of the pw db might be less likely, but then why encrypt passwords at all...
<beneroth>
or do I have an error in my thinking? :)
<miskatonic>
is sha-512 based on elliptic curves?
<viaken>
I don't think so.
<miskatonic>
elliptic curves cencryption is rumoured to be much safer than prime factor encryption
<miskatonic>
but i do not know why it is the case
<miskatonic>
it is an app server in picolis, not one in c and assembly that runs fast-cgi scripts writtenn in pil?
<beneroth>
miskatonic, read the link I posted. SHA-512 is hash function, meant to compare data, not really to securely store something.
<beneroth>
and I'm talking about the picolisp standard application framework as used and provided by Regenaxer, not any web app framework developed by me or others
<beneroth>
the standard picolisp application is a stand-alone webserver (written purely in picolisp) which optionally can be run behind the pil-specific httpGate webproxy (written in C)
<beneroth>
there is at minimum 1 webserver implementation in picolisp to be run as cgi behind a mainstream webserver (e.g. apache/nginx etc), but this implementation was not made by Regenaxer and is not part of the standard distribution of picolisp
<beneroth>
the main advantage of elliptic curve encryptions is afaik performance, while possibly having good or better than usual security. the underlying concept is similar for all elliptic curve encryption algorithms, the difference is kinda a configuration of parameters. some configurations are already found to have weak spots, some of those where probably because of their weaknesses standardized by NIST (to make the NSAs job easier)
<beneroth>
so some of those "configurations" are believed to be more secure than traditional prime factor encryption, some are known to be probably weak, and many are not tested and thought about enough to give a good audit
<beneroth>
at least this is my current understanding. I'm absolutely no crypto expert.
<beneroth>
a important aspect is that hashing algorithms (for comparing stuff, e.g. are two files the same) and two-way encryption algorithms (to encrypt & decrypt stuff with a password or private/public keys) should have fast performance
<beneroth>
while password hashing is a one-way encryption, similar but not the same as the "comparing" use case.
<miskatonic>
ok, so the sha-something is not a public-private key thing
<beneroth>
you want password hashing algorithms to be slow and hard to parallelize
<beneroth>
exactly
<beneroth>
but for various historic not-really-security reasons, most password-hashing in the past was made with "compare stuff" hash algorithms (e.g. MD5, SHA)
<miskatonic>
so sha-1 and md5 are nowadays too fast,especially with multiple processors
<beneroth>
this was already a theoretical problem 20-30 years ago, but since 10-20 years it is a practical problem, especially since people started to make such calculation on GPUs
<beneroth>
exactly
<beneroth>
they were a poor choice for password encryption from the start
<beneroth>
but I guess one reason they were used was because there were easy to use implementations around for those comparing hash algorithms
<beneroth>
while the correct choices was (and still often is) a bit a harder setup for an application developer
<beneroth>
afaik Regenaxers password hashing is based on the standard UNIX way. which is flawed :)
<beneroth>
not a huge issue but not exactly optimal / state of the art :)