<beneroth>
"consent" is only one thing allowing a company to have my data. a business contract/relation does also fully allow them to process all data required to fulfil the contract - though it doesn't allow them to sell my data to third parties or analyse to hell to spam me. so same as with the Cookie banners, its completely unnecessary unless the company is doing something shameful.
<beneroth>
and the guardian article points out, that if these parties indeed need a new consent because they were not allowed to have my data beforehand..well then sending that consent email is probably also illegal :D
<yunfan>
i'd receive serveral email about gdpr
<yunfan>
its interesting that the euro goverments prefer privacy so much while they agree to avoid people using strong encrypting
<beneroth>
I'm a bit excited to see how many GDPR requests I get (as a company/hoster)
<beneroth>
well you must see that the EU governments (even the EU institutions alone) are a big group of many different groups. one wing might fight for thing A while another wing tries to outlaw it.
<beneroth>
same e.g. with US Gov and TOR, some parts financing and basically building it up, some parts wanna make it worldwide illegal
<beneroth>
also most of GDPR is not new law for European countries. the existing laws (dating back 20-30 or more years) had in general the same rules. the big new thing is that now punishments are defined.
<yunfan>
well i dislike most of the euro countries
<beneroth>
the whole discussion about GPDR brings also up a fundamental difference in how the law works in some regions of the world... in Europe it's mostly "principle"-based, meaning a law is a formulation of some principles which should be followed, and a court will check how much the principle was violated, not just exact wordings. Also European courts (especially EU stuff) have mostly a tradition of proportioned judgements, meaning if you violate GPDR but by mis
<beneroth>
take and not indent, you will most likely suffer just a small or no punishment (the first time).
<beneroth>
US law is mostly rule based, so the exact wording matters more and gets executed.
<mtsd>
Hello everyone
<beneroth>
hi mtsd
<Regenaxer>
Hi mtsd!
<mtsd>
Lots of GDPR mails here as well :)
<yunfan>
beneroth: i prefer us law
<beneroth>
for what do you dislike most of the euro countries, yunfan ?
<yunfan>
but i was thinking maybe its just the TV seris which affect me
<yunfan>
beneroth: high welfare, too left wing
<mtsd>
I see it as a good opportunity to clean up among the places I am, or have been, a member
<beneroth>
I think US from outside looks a lot more uniform (and often stupid) than it is.
<mtsd>
So, I usually reply with a request to be deleted ;)
<beneroth>
yunfan, legitimate opinion :)
<beneroth>
have you ever lived in euro countries?
<yunfan>
beneroth: nope, i am chinese, a vasa is not easy for me to got years ago
<yunfan>
but now i think its not a problem, except i dont have the interesting of visiting europe
<yunfan>
my passion were on pacific islands which i havnt visited too :D
<beneroth>
I see. well rest assured, the eu countries are pretty different all in all.
<beneroth>
oh that sounds nice :)
<beneroth>
if you ever happen to visit Switzerland, I would be happy to met you :)
<yunfan>
of caurse, every coutries has its own situation
<yunfan>
beneroth: yes, i already read from news about switzerland, i like them, they have all people taking guns
<beneroth>
multiple situations. and its not black/white. every group/branch/nation has bad stuff and probably some good.
<beneroth>
partly true. any member of the military takes their gun home. but ammunition is not allowed and hard to come by ;-)
<yunfan>
beneroth: but since you have a organization named european union, you were towarding some direction to reduce the situations, isnt it
<yunfan>
btw, i prefer netherland
<beneroth>
a bit, there is a new gun law which Switzerland is meant to copy from EU, but its not yet decided how and how much of its content. Swiss people are very stubborn and will not just take copy this unchanged.
<yunfan>
for its freedom , i heard of that they allow marijuana and prostitude
<beneroth>
its getting more and more restricted.
<yunfan>
yes they event refuse to join the EU :D
<beneroth>
prostitution is in most European countries legal afaik (as long as it happens under free will, which might include economic pressure).
<beneroth>
Defining stuff illegal does not make it go away, just make it harder to handle it well.
<yunfan>
also luxemburg gots my respect for their attitude to space mining
<beneroth>
whats their attitude to space mining?
<yunfan>
beneroth: they were very positive on the plan
<beneroth>
well as far as I know it is not cheap enough yet to do
<beneroth>
economic warfare against poorer countries which just happen to have the previous minerals is cheaper :(
<yunfan>
yes, the situation is like the eve of the big maritime navigation era, isnt it?
<yunfan>
exception at that time, the coutries is portugal
<yunfan>
but there's something i think eu gets better than US, it has lesser religion issues
<beneroth>
maybe you should read Buckminster Fuller. He was one of the greatest (and weirdest) inventor of the past century. We developed a lot stuff. In one of his books (Manual to Spaceship Earth) he paints a picture of the maritime traders/pirates as the big evil guys in world history, because they we're able to exploit the rest of the humans by their advantage in travel and knowledge.
<yunfan>
i knew that guy, i like its fuller dome :D
<yunfan>
beneroth: thought he is smart on engineering, but i think his ideas on huminity is very poor
<beneroth>
yeah. and the fulleren (chemical basic structure) is named because of him. he didn't develop it, but it was found based on his architecture design.
<beneroth>
probably, but a good read.
<yunfan>
i was recently thought about if fuller dome could be used to build a portable greenhouse
<yunfan>
where are you from? beneroth
<beneroth>
I completely detest US Gov for operating concentration camps, torturing people (including US citizens), completely destroying other nations etc. etc. while posing as a human rights defender. hypocrite. I find a hypocrite is kinda worse then a guy/gov who is doing bad thing but never claimed to be the good guy (but more like doing the necessary evil. in the end, everyone always believes to be the good guy).
<beneroth>
Switzerland. grown up here.
<beneroth>
I like the good infrastructure here :) I don't like that we sell arms to everyone. :)
<yunfan>
aha, do you carry gun :D
<beneroth>
I don't have any. I was not in military service because of health reasons, and I never got myself a gun otherwise. There is no point for me having a gun except maybe for sport shooting as a hobby.
<yunfan>
ok
<beneroth>
there is like zero risk that someone would invade my home or mug me on the street or similar stuff (reasons for having a gun in some countries).
<beneroth>
You only get in such trouble here if you are a member of a criminal organisation or such. even then not so likely.
<beneroth>
ok, rarely there is some lunatic amok run happening, but thats very rare.
<beneroth>
most gun incidents we have is people doing suicide (often with their military gun). sometimes this people kill also their family before killing themselves. but that also happens quite rare.
<beneroth>
btw. USA: half of the countries firearms are possessed by only 3 Percent of the population
<beneroth>
"Three percent of the population now owns half of the country’s firearms, says a recent, definitive study from the Injury Control Research Center at Harvard University."
<beneroth>
how is the law in China? can you get a gun for hobby freely?
<beneroth>
well ok, possible when doing hunting or sports, but I guess not so easy to access.
<beneroth>
interesting knives are also banned.
<beneroth>
well ok, in Switzerland we have a limit on the length of knives to be freely transported. Knives longer as a certain length are only allowed e.g. for sports and you are only allowed to travel to the sport location and back to your home with it.
<aw->
hi bene
<aw->
oh here in Japan it's quite strict on that stuff too
<aw->
you get in trouble if you have a box cutter with no boxes to cut ;)
<beneroth>
hi aw- :)
<beneroth>
box cutters aren't a problem here. well unless you are swinging it around in a crowded area without any boxes nearby, but why should someone do that ;-)
<beneroth>
btw. yunfan the EU law change which they want to implement in Switzerland is focused about private people getting an allowance for having guns, it's not aimed at the Swiss military gun thingy.
<beneroth>
aw-, how is the risk of being mugged in Japanese cities?
<beneroth>
(not that a gun helps there)
<aw->
beneroth: haha
<aw->
mugged?
<aw->
there is no such thing
<aw->
never heard of it
<beneroth>
nice :)
<aw->
unlike my friend's first day in London
<beneroth>
same here.
<aw->
or another friend's first day in Barcelona
<beneroth>
yeah I heard it about London from friends, too
<beneroth>
that shit makes me wonder. though I guess it is a cultural/population/economic thing, not just bad police work (police can't prevent crimes unless the incentives for crimes is very low anyway)
<aw->
people here often walk around with hundreds of dollars worth of JPY.. it's not uncommon
<beneroth>
same here. well ok Switzerland is special, as we like cash. Paying 10k or more in cash for buying a car is nothing special.
<aw->
yeah here too
<aw->
Switzerland, seems like a nice place
<beneroth>
it is. Good infrastructure, nice landscape. But the people are pretty closed and not very friendly.
<aw->
haha yeah, just like Japan
<aw->
well.. "friendly" is subjective
<beneroth>
even Swiss people moving into a small village where they had no relation to in advance will be treated as weird foreigners for 30 years or so.
<beneroth>
T
<aw->
if you live here long enough, you can understand the various definitions of "friendly"
<beneroth>
I guess so. I think the "having multiple faces/masks" is much stronger in Japan culture, while here in switzerland its less having multiple faces but more like not interacting a lot with people not known well already.
<aw->
here it's rare to go to someone's house for drinks or dinner or just hang out.. I really miss that from Canada, always people coming over even without calling in advance.
<beneroth>
on the flip side, good friends here means usually good friends for a live, no matter what.
<aw->
i see
<beneroth>
yeah. a Swiss inviting someone else into his hous/flat the first time is a big increase of the relationship and trust level
<beneroth>
though also has good sides. International Celebrity here because most Swiss don't care at all about them, or at least not in an invading manner.
<beneroth>
s/here/likes it here
<aw->
right, only the closest friends are invited, and it's usually for special occasions, as opposed to "hey i was shopping nearby and wanted to watch the game, i brought beer"
<beneroth>
ok. well spontan visits happen here. thats more depending on the individual persons, some get nuts when you visit them uninvited, but that's not normal. here it's more about either belonging to the friend circle or not.
<aw->
oh yeah very similar to Japanese culture...
<aw->
interesting...
<beneroth>
and Swiss in general don't like foreigners, including foreigners which just happen to be Swiss from another part of Switzerland.
<beneroth>
that's also the same in Japan afaik
<aw->
hahaha
<aw->
i think there's no dislike between Japanese
<aw->
but rather between Asians
<beneroth>
I spoke with a new employee at a client of mine yesterday. He is Australian, grew up there, but has a swiss passport (swiss grandparents), so he moved here. He said in Australia you can move everywhere and will not be treated differently (aka as a foreigner). also not much diversity in language, same dialect in the whole country, just maybe some stronger accent in the countryside.
<aw->
hmmmm
<beneroth>
aw-, ok. that would a difference. Dislike between Asians is understandable with the old and rich history all these different people had with each other ^^
<aw->
i lived with two aussies from different parts, they always make fun of each other
<beneroth>
dislike between Swiss is rather common. Canton Zurich people dislike Canton Basel people and vic versa (you can tell by the dialect who is from where).
<aw->
but yeah prob not at the level of "dislike"
<beneroth>
yeah I like aussies, all I know are fun and relaxed.
<beneroth>
you can tell by the dialect who comes from which part of Switzerland. If you know dialects well, you might be even able to distinct between two small villages in the same region 2 miles apart.
<beneroth>
and there are cultural gaps between the german and french and italian parts of switzerland.
<beneroth>
we're not a common people. we're a nation formed by the fact that we happened to be in-between the superpowers and being their buffer. plus overly stubborness.
<beneroth>
I believe we're more "trained" into "making compromises" than other cultures. our political system is very largely built upon that. thats a good thing, I guess.
<beneroth>
well ok, to be accurate modern Switzerland as a nation was founded by Napoleon, who conquered it, wanted to make it part of France, and than gave up and let it be its own nation because "you can't rule this people, they never agree on anything and quarrel all the time"
<aw->
interesting... well as long as you don't get mugged, that's better than not talking to your neighbours IMO ;)
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
though its common to talk at least some niceties with your neighbours. its declining now, but for a long time its usual that all neighbours in a house with multiple parties have one shared (cloth) washing room to share, so sometimes you had to talk to the neighbours to settle when it is used by whom ^^
<beneroth>
that's the guy who brought the old EU/CH-US data protection act to fall (which was followed by the current "privacy shield" nonsense)
<beneroth>
“Everything that is strictly necessary does not need a consent pop-up. For the rest the user can agree or say no.”
<beneroth>
yep I think this is a good rule.
<rick42>
if the user says "no" is that tantamount (equal to) not accepting the service? Because Schrems is quoted in the article as calling this "blackmail". hmmm
<beneroth>
you must differ between data necessary to do the service vs. data not required for running the service but interesting for the service provider
<beneroth>
first thing doesn't need any additional consent, so they don't even have to ask you, e.g. if the service is send you something by postal letter they obviously are allowed to store and process your postal address.
<rick42>
who defines that difference? the service provider?
<beneroth>
but the second thing, data which is NOT inherently necessary to provide the service, is not getting automatic consent by the user using the service, so it needs additional consent, and this has to be given freely and not be coupled to access to the service
<beneroth>
I guess the difference is often obvious from the nature of the service. In doubt, it's up to the courts to decide I guess.
<rick42>
"i need your date of birth because only people above a certain age should use this site (a threshold defined, again, by me)."
<rick42>
L)
<rick42>
:D
<beneroth>
other example: you subscribe in an online shop, for something which you get delivered by download. so the company does not require your postal address, so they are not allowed to store and process it without additional consent. (unless required by other laws, eg. accounting laws or such, but then again its ok without additional consent)
<beneroth>
that example is bad, because asking date of birth is bullshit to decide the age of a person :)
<beneroth>
better ask them what a pencil is used for next to a picture of an audio cassette :D
<rick42>
if you pay by CC they ask for it (for ID/ security reasons) ... although i agree that there should be a better way
<rick42>
lol
<beneroth>
some shops do, but most online shops I know don't ask for additional data beside the CC number + holder name + valid till date + checksum thingy
<beneroth>
often the CC transaction goes over another provider, so the shop owner usually doesn't even get that data
<beneroth>
the funny part is that the law doesn't change substantially in most countries, most stuff forbidden now was forbidden before, people just largely didn't know and companies didn't care because there were no real punishments to enforce it