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<freemint>
Good Morning
<beneroth>
Good morning freemint
<freemint>
beneroth: Do you any thoughts on the dialog i had with Regenaxer?
<freemint>
(thinking faster than i type "have")
<beneroth>
nah, why should I?
<freemint>
you do not have to have an opinion, obviously
<freemint>
Were you aware that the database works thata way?
<freemint>
that way = pilIO dumps of serialized symbols at block offset?
<Regenaxer>
Hi freemint, beneroth
<freemint>
Hi Regenaxer thank you for taking the hours yesterday
<beneroth>
yes of course
<Regenaxer>
Good thing, it helps me to explain things
<Regenaxer>
Much easier than a systematic write up
<Regenaxer>
(for me)
<freemint>
I understand why
<Regenaxer>
Yes, beneroth knew the internals, but I think most people will not
<Regenaxer>
It is not documented
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
needs to be documented, eventually.
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
but its easy to inspect.
<freemint>
i know half of the internals now i guess
<beneroth>
inspecting a real database and reading the source code = explains things :)
<Regenaxer>
freemint, I think you know most of it now. There is not much more on that layer
<beneroth>
freemint, do you see how it builds upon picolisp data types? how the simplicity results in emergent complexity? I find it beautiful.
<beneroth>
I guess freemint still has to grok the e/r system, including relationships daemon?
<freemint>
beneroth: mhh you are right, i could have just reverse engineered it, but that understanding is hard to communicate and leads to every body having their own terms for everything
<beneroth>
well I have several years of experiencing working with databases and ERP systems, so I guess I have the advantage of knowing most of the database terms. though Regenaxer has often his own terms, too :P
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, T
<Regenaxer>
or even third, if btrees are the second
<freemint>
beneroth: i have not seen enough to call it beautifull, but at least i can call it sensisble now. Way lesss magic then i suspected
<Regenaxer>
T, no hokuspokus
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, I would put e/r and btrees on the same layer. hm.. though relationships are built upon them, so yeah, it might be a lower layer...
<beneroth>
I hate magic
<Regenaxer>
I can imagine applications of only btrees without e/r
<Regenaxer>
a simple lookup storage
<freemint>
that is not a sufficient condition for layering i think
<Regenaxer>
well, the condition is independence
<Regenaxer>
layers independent of other things
<beneroth>
Magic is unreliable. When you go slightly of the designated path, you get brooms filling your house with water without listening to any stop command.
<freemint>
i can imagine an app without numbers yet numbers are not layered of symbols
<Regenaxer>
haha, true
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, good definition of layer, independence.
<Regenaxer>
but symbols are parallel
<beneroth>
freemint, yep, but both are made up of cells. cells is a layer below it.
<Regenaxer>
not building *upon* numbers
<freemint>
frac.l?
<beneroth>
relationship are built upon btree implementation, so btree are on lower layer. btrees are built upon external symbols, so higher than lowest db layer. Regenaxer you were right in the beginning.
<Regenaxer>
ok
<Regenaxer>
The btree layer can be substituted by something else without breaking e/r
<Regenaxer>
I did that in 'create'
<Regenaxer>
it simply redefines the 'store' function
<freemint>
Since B-Trees are just pilCode, would it be possible to implent other index types (tries) too?
<Regenaxer>
so that trees are delayed
<beneroth>
well, same is true for the external symbol layer, no?
<Regenaxer>
freemint, exactly
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, yes
<beneroth>
freemint, T
<Regenaxer>
eg. Android objects
<freemint>
what reason is there to store wiki markup in blobs and and in db strings?
<beneroth>
Putin has hahaha-only-serious hacker humor. Apparently he said about hackers "hacker, those are free people. Like artists. They stand up in the morning, and when they're in the mood, they sit down and paint their pictures."
<beneroth>
freemint, size
<Regenaxer>
Putin is right ;)
<beneroth>
wiki article sizes can vary a lot. stuff you put into DB you want to be of a similar size on average, so you can chose a block size for them which fits them most, so you don't waste space (too big block size, much padding) or performance (fragmentation, too small blocksize)
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, yeah
<beneroth>
freemint, I have 2 pilDB applications where I put the articles/pages into DB. no problem. but probably some waste and overhead.
<Regenaxer>
And though strings can be more easily operated upon, this is not needed in the wiki so much to justify the higher costs of space and I/O
<Regenaxer>
The texts are only indexed and displayed
<freemint>
a server side vulnerability had me panic though
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<Regenaxer>
BTW, I really like bitlbee
<Regenaxer>
I use it to read/write twitter and mastodon in my irc client
<Regenaxer>
All in one UI :)
<Regenaxer>
How about some of you also start with Mastodon (as Twitter is indeed dubious)?
<beneroth>
thanks for the advice.
<beneroth>
I need first some good reasons why to start with Twitter/Mastodon as social media concept/thingy, to be honest :)
<Regenaxer>
true
<Regenaxer>
Besides this, Mastodon is a bit confusing. Fediverse
<beneroth>
yes, little messages are nice. but shitstorms are annoying as hell. and I'm discussing already enough with "strangers on the internet who are wrong", I'm afraid it would be just another useless timesink :)
<beneroth>
(for me, YMMV)
<Regenaxer>
I didn't see any shitstorm in Mastodon yet
<beneroth>
well fediverse is practially RSS feeds + federal forwarding like in the usenet, no?
<beneroth>
well I bet 1) you are not looking 2) you usually only interact with nice people
<beneroth>
I believe shitstorms etc. is a property of the media (à la McLuhan) interaction/usage features and not bound to twitter or so
<beneroth>
but yeah, what advantages do you gain by being present in the fediverse, Regenaxer ?
<beneroth>
user/customer interaction might be a solid reason?
<Regenaxer>
It is like Twitter is the sense that you follow people you are interested in
<Regenaxer>
For example, there is now a discussion about Penti and other alternative keyboards
<Regenaxer>
For user/customer it is probably not enough mainstream
<Regenaxer>
"1) you are not looking" is not longer the case, as I have it permanently open in this text client
<Regenaxer>
The web gui needs JS, or a dedicated App
<Regenaxer>
I used Mastalab App for a while, but I don't like the need having more things running here
<beneroth>
I mean 1) you don't look in news/blogs/in the fediverse for shitstorms, and you probably don't attract one yourself as you are nice and you a rather quiet (better for safety/security) :)
<Regenaxer>
also Firefox is too heavy and noisy
<Regenaxer>
that's right
<Regenaxer>
alexshendi is there too, and rick42
<beneroth>
there were already shitstorms and bigger clashes in fediverse. e.g. western user vs. japanese users over culturally different understanding of drawings of rather child-like figures with not much cloths on.. .to formulate it that way
<Regenaxer>
well, ok, that's life
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
Ah, not rick42 perhaps, but clacke[m]
<beneroth>
sounds plausible, clacke is media active kinda :)
<beneroth>
now I'm missing him here!
<Regenaxer>
indeed
<Regenaxer>
haven't seen him for a while(?)
<beneroth>
T
<Regenaxer>
I view Mastodon|Twitter not so much as RSS feed but as a more "modern" version of IRC, with better acceptance by some people
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<beneroth>
only thing bad about IRC is lack of encryption
<beneroth>
newer is not better.
<tankf33der>
encryption or privacy? :)
<tankf33der>
im over ssl
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<beneroth>
tankf33der, T, TLS ftw
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