<tankf33der>
f12 do openat and giveup and dont recreate if doesnt exist.
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<freemint>
tankf33der give up if file does not exists, would make 'out s behavior OS version specific that would suck as some apps might break
<Regenaxer>
freemint, we are talking about 'pool' here
<freemint>
then it would break pool?
<Regenaxer>
What exactly would break?
<Regenaxer>
We simply have an incorrect picolisp build, so anything can go wrong
<beneroth>
Good morning all
<Regenaxer>
Hi beneroth!
<freemint>
If pool does no longer create databases, when callin (pool "name" ) wouldn't (doc 'pool) need to be changed? (the second sentence would need an "except when you are on FreeBSD12")
<beneroth>
freemint, do you know the context of what you are talking about?
<beneroth>
you are in a discussion about FreeBSD12 problems, its not about changing the behaviour of pool
<freemint>
I've read the messages from yesterday and today. But when you ask that way - likely no.
<beneroth>
it's no discussion about changing something in picolisp. picolisp does not build/run on FreeBSD 12, which it did on 11, and even on release candidate
<beneroth>
its not only a picolisp problem, rust (the language) is also affected
<beneroth>
so chill down
<beneroth>
:)
<beneroth>
tankf33der described the faulty behaviour. nothing else.
<tankf33der>
now pil32 and 64 compiles on f12 and passed tests out of box.
<tankf33der>
rick42: must download picoLisp.tgz and recompile.
<tankf33der>
f12 issue closed.
<Regenaxer>
Thanks!!
<rick42>
$ ./pil -version -bye
<rick42>
19.1.30
<rick42>
$ ./pil lib/test.l -bye +
<rick42>
OK
<rick42>
thanks tankf33der, Regenaxer!
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<rick42>
passed here also for 19.1.30 C
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<rick42>
ok, i just finished reading the traffic from this morning. excellent job tankf33der and Regenaxer! the dynamic duo!
<rick42>
f11 bites the dust. :D
<namra>
greetings
<namra>
was wondering if the following is still the case (taken from the rosetta code page for "Documentation" example): "PicoLisp doesn't yet support inline documentation directly in the code."
<beneroth>
Greetings namra
* beneroth
tries to look up the definition of "inline documentation"
<namra>
though it doesn't look like a big deal to implement a "doc" function for ones own code. similar to the existing one.
<beneroth>
*Dbg mechanism works a bit like this, when picolisp is started with + at the end, debug mode is turned on, which saves for every definition and load where it was defined
<beneroth>
but yeah, strictly speaking we don't have inline documentation. one can make a system for that easily, tough.
<beneroth>
I would also argue that the picolisp standpoint is that the code should be the documentation, which is helped by having short source code :) surely a comment on a more complex piece of code helps, but in general comments should describe WHY something was done in a certain way, not be a natural language representation of the same information which is in the code.
<namra>
certainly agree on how things should be commented
<beneroth>
yeah you're talking about having comments/descriptions available during reflection, kinda
<namra>
and pico lisp is also a joy to read compared to more popular languages
<beneroth>
thanks :) I agree.
<beneroth>
at the beginning it might look a bit like write-only-code (perl, regex), but it absolutely is not! and just being able to reflect/look up every detail (as most in-builts are lisp code too, or well-documented pil asm) I find a big plus
<namra>
gotta have some recreational coding after a working 8hs a day in python. just to keep sane :D.
<namra>
i agree
<beneroth>
maybe you can explain us why pyhton libraries are so big? just too many lazy coders? or somehow encouraged by the language?
<beneroth>
not wanting to bash on python. but sometimes it looks a big stack of turtles.. too many turtles
<namra>
maybe to many CS graduates indoctrinated with some weird understanding of OOP
<tankf33der>
mansur dont use freebsd anymore.
<beneroth>
namra, true, that is a general (language-agnostic) problem :) just look at XML. or UML. sometimes people are so happy with their models and rules they try to fit everything through it, forgetting that their model/rules were originally made as a tool for some purpose, not for a value in itself.
<beneroth>
tankf33der, do we know of anyone using pil on freebsd even? well rick :) and?
<beneroth>
maybe it would be interesting to put pil on Playstation console? they're based on freebsd I think, nice hardware for some specialised stuff
<tankf33der>
beneroth: i think everybody use linux
<tankf33der>
linux won.
<beneroth>
(also to say, as the larger part of the pil community is only passively on the mailing list, and even many picolispers outside of the ML are also active)
<beneroth>
tankf33der, aye
<beneroth>
well freebsd is not copyleft, so maybe useful for some business stuff (e.g. whatsapp servers). I can see the attraction of openBSD for security/cleanliness/paranoid. but yeah, linux is the most supported. network effect plays for linux (see solaris).
<beneroth>
namra, what do you code in your recreational coding time?
<beneroth>
what's holding you back from diving further into picolisp? :D
<namra>
just building some tools/libs for software testing purposes
<namra>
what's holding me back might be the small set of available libs. but i have to make the decision if i want to learn more, meaning to implement things from scratch myself, which i guess in the long run might be more valuable. or if i want to be able to quickly build a pet project that can potentialy generate some side income.
<namra>
even building a pet project should be in a language that i do enjoy. and that does the right things in my opinion.
<namra>
and picolisp is certainly such a language. so beautifully simple.
<namra>
though i actually don't want to crank out something quickly that just works and leave readability/maintainability behind me. have to do that at work all the time. and it just sucks.
<namra>
"works" in quotes. don't really know if it works most of the time :D
<namra>
though small set of libs ain't really a valid point as their is an FFI.
<Regenaxer>
A small (kind of cheating) trick is to write strings in the code in places where its evaluation is not used as a value
<Regenaxer>
(de f (X) "This does f()" (foo) (bar))
<Regenaxer>
A little dangerous ;)
<rick42>
i don't like some of the engineering choices of linux, for instance, linux kernel oops -- probably better to fail hard and fast
<beneroth>
rick42, depends on the use case
<beneroth>
I agree for proper software. I don't agree for most scenarios out there ;-)
<beneroth>
namra, if you go more into picolisp, you will just hate your day job even more. Bad code is more frustrating if you know that it could be a single short line.
* razzy
catched bad habit of not commenting code. because it changes so quickly it is waste of time :]
<Regenaxer>
razzy, true, same here
<Regenaxer>
a wrong comment is worse than no comment
<razzy>
:D all of mine are either old, or not existent :D
<rick42>
/* you are not expected to understand this */
<rick42>
:)
<Regenaxer>
:)
<namra>
beneroth, for that it's already to late ^^. since i encountered lisp the first time. i never really wanted to go back to anything else ^^.
<namra>
:D
<namra>
Yeah hitting that quite often. Outdated comments that weren't removed or updated when the code changed.
<Regenaxer>
I loved the concept of shadow screens in Forth (we discussed it here once shortly)
<Regenaxer>
The comments are out of the way then
<Regenaxer>
but still available at a single key
<Regenaxer>
I must build that into Vip
<Regenaxer>
at least think about it, if feasible
<Regenaxer>
Modern OSes don't have "screens" any more
<Regenaxer>
What comes close is the "resource forks" of MacOS (do they still exist? I used them last time 30 years ago)
<beneroth>
no idea
<razzy>
i do not know what do you mean by "screen"
<razzy>
but i love org-like collapsable lisp code
<namra>
gn8 folks. was nice meeting you.
<razzy>
so you can temporarily collapse some code to "see" biger picture
<Regenaxer>
The original Forth "file" system was simply a set of screens 1 KiB each
<Regenaxer>
16 lines by 64 chars
<rick42>
never heard of resources forks. just read about them now. reminds me of picolisp symbol plist: attach whatever you want :)
<Regenaxer>
maybe bigger
<Regenaxer>
rick42, exactly
<Regenaxer>
Sometimes when I get Mac zip files I see directories __Mac.
<razzy>
sounds like artificial limitation/regulation
<rick42>
namra: gnite
<Regenaxer>
I think these are the way to store the resource forks
<razzy>
namra: gn
<rick42>
ok
<Regenaxer>
In forth you edit code in screens. No continuous file. So it is easy to reserve a shadow screen for each source screen
<razzy>
you mean general system for resource alocation when doing parael processing?
<Regenaxer>
It is a dump from a system I wrote in the 80s
<Regenaxer>
The right colums are the shadows
<Regenaxer>
When editing you see the left screen, and scroll down etc.
<razzy>
hmm, it would not help me write better comments :]. i would rather hide comments and forgotten about them alltogether
<Regenaxer>
With a single key you toggle between the source and its shadow
<Regenaxer>
so the comment overlays the source if needed
<razzy>
i like collapse-able code and hide-able comments org-mode style better. so it is in one file, and client do the magic
<Regenaxer>
I like comments in assembly. They are to the right and out of the way
<Regenaxer>
I don't like them in Lisp or C-style langs
<rick42>
Regenaxer: january and february 1987 were busy months for you writing Kernel :)
<razzy>
show comments in separate screen is also possible to do with client. no need for separate files
<Regenaxer>
rick42, haha, seems so
<Regenaxer>
Actually, I did not write this from scratch
<Regenaxer>
It is a port of the famous Laxen/Perry Forth from 8080 to 6809
<rick42>
ah
<rick42>
Regenaxer: do you write anything in Forth in the lasy few years?
<rick42>
last*
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<Regenaxer>
Nothing, except the base of a Forth in Pil
<rick42>
ah neat!
<Regenaxer>
well, not soo recent
<Regenaxer>
Feb 2017
<Regenaxer>
it is also still on software-lab
<rick42>
so since software-lab has abu.key, i can send you secret messages? :)
<beneroth>
can you trust this one? :P
<beneroth>
I mean the one you see is not necessarily the one stored on the server :P
<rick42>
so here is a question (for everybody): what do you use for key management (including backups and deployment on to clients)? curious. i'm doing mine sort of manually by stuffing keys into a lastpass DB
<beneroth>
keepass
<rick42>
it's a pain but it works
<rick42>
ok beneroth, how do you deploy/backup?
<beneroth>
the encrypted file I put in git.
<rick42>
ok
<beneroth>
my personal server
<rick42>
makes sense!
<beneroth>
private keys I encrypt, storing the encryption password in keepass too
<rick42>
symmetric
<beneroth>
else private keys are only on the machines where they are used
<rick42>
ok
<rick42>
meaning passphrase
<beneroth>
aye
<beneroth>
keepass is not without doubts. so far it never had an issue afaik, and its nice that it runs on windows/linux/mac.
<rick42>
yes
<beneroth>
but upgrading to something from tankf33der would probably be good :)
<rick42>
tankpass :D
<beneroth>
also I mostly work alone, so I have no real needs for a collaborative password management
<beneroth>
passf33der :)
<Regenaxer>
ret
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, we can trust the key, as I am the only one who can decrypt with it
<Regenaxer>
All my passwords are in a master password file
<Regenaxer>
encrypted with 'ccrypt' inside Vip
<rick42>
nice
<rick42>
Regenaxer: while you were away, i was reading the sushi by Masako pages :)
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<Regenaxer>
Good :)
<rick42>
but translations :)
<Regenaxer>
You could fly over and take a course ;)
<rick42>
is she still offering courses?
<Regenaxer>
yes, you see the courses under Anmeldung und Termine
<rick42>
yes, and recipes!
<Regenaxer>
right
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, when rick42 is downloading the key, it might get replaced mid-transfer :)
<rick42>
"Our long-term plans go far beyond messaging: we'll use Briar's data synchronization capabilities to support secure, distributed applications including crisis mapping and collaborative document editing. Our goal is to enable people in any country to create safe spaces where they can debate any topic, plan events, and organise social movements."
<rick42>
sounds great
<Regenaxer>
yes, I have it since around half a year
<Regenaxer>
But not many contacts yet, as you must meet in person
<rick42>
java project
<rick42>
ok thats good (meet in person)
<razzy>
briar is awesome :]
<rick42>
only runs on android (seems)
<rick42>
no fruit phones :)
<Regenaxer>
yes
<Regenaxer>
In this case bad for me, daughter has only ios
<Regenaxer>
(was a present from her boyfriend's father ;)
<rick42>
pureos looks like the "convergence" os that people talked about a few years ago
<beneroth>
no idea, convergence?
<beneroth>
you mean, mobile usable as pc? I don't see what should be so amazing about that.
<beneroth>
a number of vendors are working on something like that at the moment
<beneroth>
but yeah, universal computer is universal. its bigcorp bullshit that smartphone is practically not an universal computer...
<rick42>
T
<beneroth>
the amazing thing about the librem 5 is that they actually attempt to sandbox the baseband. separate it from the main cpu and even have a physical off-switch.
<rick42>
purism lappys too expensive
<beneroth>
that is what I once expected from android
<beneroth>
T
<rick42>
i like the physical switch
<beneroth>
though getting just some random cheap hardware and then hoping it to work with linux drivers is not working, I found out :(
<rick42>
yeah there's that :)
<beneroth>
so I guess their offering has quite some value for people who are not so good in searching their hardware together themselves
<beneroth>
and spreading FOSS is good and needed :)
<rick42>
attacking the mac market (and the like)
<rick42>
yes i agree
<rick42>
i could do for a less powerful lappy that runs on arm chip (get the intel out :)
<beneroth>
apple popularity is mostly fashion/status-symbol, and for IT guys that it is somewhat UNIX-compatible (devs working with linux servers but too afraid to go for linux desktop went to mac, windows tries to get them back with the subsystem etc)
<beneroth>
T
<rick42>
mac is just easy. good for lazy people: smart or not-so-smart
<beneroth>
it used to be good hardware
<beneroth>
becomes worse
<rick42>
T not so anymre
<beneroth>
it used to be good design. but not because it was really excellent, just the rest is even much more worse I'd say :P
<rick42>
haha T
<rick42>
it was always that way
<beneroth>
in public market. academia was/is decades ahead at some places
<rick42>
that's why i like the suckless approach of honesty: they only claim that their software sucks less (than others). :)