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<clacke_movim>
rick42: I think the commenter is precisely correct, but you skipped the "only not as gracefully" part.
<clacke_movim>
Python even has a LISP implementation, hy, which generates Python AST as it parses. In effect adding the grace after the fact. :-)
<clacke_movim>
In fact, now that I am a Python professional again, I am motivated to learn the core lessons of hy and make Language-Oriented Programming an accessible thing on Python.
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<rick42>
clacke_movim: smells like cheating :) however, i understand your point. also of note, the poster said "(or any other modern programming language)". so, taken together, i'm still inclined to disagree with the poster.
<rick42>
clacke_movim: it's a worthy endeavor to do what you are doing, namely learning how your tools and languages work at a deep level. hats off to you.
<yunfan>
clacke_movim: you mean hy?
<clacke_movim>
hy does this cool thing where after you have imported hy, it hijacks the import mechanism to look for .hy files and compile them with hy
<clacke_movim>
So in your Python module you can just import hy; import my_hy_module and it Just Works
<clacke_movim>
I think that could be generalized to the equivalent of Racket's #lang header
<clacke_movim>
In racket you just start your .rkt file with #lang mylanguage, and it will load mylanguage/reader and read the file with the exported reader functions. Racket includes several non-parenthesis language in the standard distribution this way, e.g. datalog.
<clacke_movim>
So you write syntactic datalog, add #lang datalog at the top, save it as mymodule.rkt, and you can (require mymodule) in your mainline racket module.
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<beneroth>
"Now that WSL 2 includes its own Linux kernel it has full system call compatibility."
<beneroth>
"Initial builds of WSL 2 will be available through the Windows insider program by the end of June 2019."
<beneroth>
lol, RMS commented on that MS blog :D
<beneroth>
ah no, its fake RMS
<Regenaxer>
Cool
<beneroth>
is this an appropriate time to joke about Linux on Desktop PC ?
<Regenaxer>
Why joke?
<DKordic>
Good morning everyone.
<DKordic>
Why not?
<beneroth>
well the "this year Linux will take over Desktop PCs" is a 20 year old saying or so, being repeated again and again, but the Distros never dented much into that space
<Regenaxer>
Hi DKordic
<Regenaxer>
beneroth, T
<beneroth>
Hi DKordic
<DKordic>
Hi Regenaxer, beneroth :)
<beneroth>
it's kinda a ironic that now Microsoft will proliferate Linux (just the kernel though, not the GNU system really) to most desktop pcs...
<DKordic>
Right.
<DKordic>
[[http://metamodular.com/closos.pdf][CLOSOS Specification of a Lisp operating system]] revealed the essence of UNIX in a few footnotes!
<beneroth>
well C is definitely a 3gen language. but it isn't much more than a platform-independent assembler.
<beneroth>
using that angle, one can also attack assembler for being not low level, as 1gen machine code is a lower level (and these days, below that are likely still a few layers of software just pretending to be hardware)
<beneroth>
I like this definition from the article: "A programming language is low level when its programs require attention to the irrelevant."
<beneroth>
though then I'd view most non-picolisp languages as low level ^^
<beneroth>
(the subjectivity lies in what someone sees as irrelevant of course - for my taste, weak static typing is mostly just coding overhead)
<beneroth>
good article though, thanks DKordic
<beneroth>
good food for people who were surprised by this Spectre drama
<beneroth>
the fun is that whole topic (side-channel attacks on CPU caching etc) flies directly into the face of the whole cloud industry (= shared hosting)
<Regenaxer>
Good point about the irrelevant details!
<beneroth>
yeah, you could put it in pils marketing material ;-)
<beneroth>
add it to blaesius
<Regenaxer>
indeed
<beneroth>
the source for the quote is "Computer science pioneer Alan Perlis": Perlis, A. 1982. Epigrams on programming. ACM SIGPLAN Notices 17(9).
<beneroth>
ah, the first recipient of the Turing Award
<beneroth>
he worked on ALGOL, so he certainly knew McCarthy then
<beneroth>
I don't think I stumbled over these before.. this is GOLD! starts with "1. One man's constant is another man's variable." bwahaha
<Regenaxer>
Cool, thanksI
<beneroth>
we have NIL constants in pil :D
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<Regenaxer>
reading ...
<beneroth>
oh I love this "Everything should be built top-down, except the first time."
<Regenaxer>
and this "Moral: Structure data late in the programming process"
<beneroth>
:)
<Regenaxer>
dynamics
<beneroth>
fits pil and pilDB well
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
doesn't fit relational SQL DBMS well - which was one of the causes of the NoSQL hype, I believe
<beneroth>
(though they didn't deliver so well, those NoSQL hipsters...)
<beneroth>
I heard those before:
<beneroth>
A program without a loop and a structured variable isn't worth writing.
<beneroth>
A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing.
<beneroth>
thanks DKordic, you made me find this!
<beneroth>
OH
<Regenaxer>
yeah, thanks
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, another one for the blaesius!
<beneroth>
"Wherever there is modularity there is the potential for misunderstanding: Hiding information implies a need to check communication."
<beneroth>
this goes straight against how encapsulation is done in industry, and against having many layers of software hiding things from each other!
<beneroth>
so my original ideas are not so original :D
<beneroth>
this is all pure gold
<beneroth>
wow
<beneroth>
"Sometimes I think the only universal in the computing field is the fetch-execute-cycle."
<beneroth>
so he already witnessed the disaster that today's node.js/NPM is :D
<beneroth>
"Giving up on assembly language was the apple in our Garden of Eden: Languages whose use squanders machine cycles are sinful. The LISP machine now permits LISP programmers to abandon bra and fig-leaf."
<beneroth>
one for our theorizers: "Don't have good ideas if you aren't willing to be responsible for them."
<Regenaxer>
yeah
<beneroth>
and "The proof of a system's value is its existence." to second it
<beneroth>
ha
<beneroth>
sorry razzy, and even DKordic, the next weird question about why are things in picolisp the way they are will be answered with that quote :P
<beneroth>
(I like you, guys)
<Regenaxer>
;)
<DKordic>
""In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they are quite different. "" -- John Cowan in ##lisp
<Regenaxer>
93. When someone says "I want a programming language in which I need only say what I wish done," give him a lollipop.
<Regenaxer>
Put tractatus into my todo list
<beneroth>
DKordic, very true
<beneroth>
Regenaxer, thanks, do it!
<Regenaxer>
Must find the proper place in the tree
<beneroth>
thats the problem with lisp coding :D
<Regenaxer>
T
<beneroth>
the lollipop I would do in a negative branch
<beneroth>
it's an insult. a righteous one, but still.
<Regenaxer>
Such languages were propagated repeatedly. Always found that stupid
<beneroth>
in the positive branch I would add somewhere a point/branch about pil not being a esoteric case study but a practical battle-tested project
<beneroth>
well it's the big dream. magic also looks like that, until you found out you have to study years to make the right hand-movements, so you get the dishes cleaned and do not by accident summon the daemons of multiverse destruction
<Regenaxer>
The Thermomix of programming! Gives up everything worthwile (in cooking or programming)
<beneroth>
T
<beneroth>
I didn't know this product, funny, wikipedia has a full "Safety" chapter on its article: "There have been numerous accounts of a Thermomix machine "exploding" and scalding people with hot liquids."
<beneroth>
btw. in good news: Java EE is practically killed now (Java Enterprise Server horrors) - Oracle killed it by accident, like OpenOffice et al
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