13:36 <immasheepherrder> hi

13:36 <Regenaxer> Hi immasheepherrder

13:36 <immasheepherrder> New here, been lurking for a week now. Seems like a great community!

13:36 <Regenaxer> Thanks :)

13:37 <immasheepherrder> I'll probably start asking some rookie questions in the near future, if that's OK. :)

13:38 <Regenaxer> Sure, any time! :)

13:38 <Regenaxer> No worries

15:13 <immasheepherrder> > All other things equal, 64-bit PicoLisp is usually slower than the 32-bit version, due to a poorer memory cache performance (the cells are twice as large size). On the other hand, arithmetics are faster, due to the additional short number type in pil64.

15:14 <immasheepherrder> Whoops, wanted to format that better. The quote is from the bottom of this page: https://picolisp.com/wiki/?pilvsel

15:14 <beneroth> Ahoy immasheepherrder, welcome here :)

15:14 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, yeah, what is the question? :))

15:14 <immasheepherrder> Hi beneroth!

15:16 <immasheepherrder> As I mainly do CRUD stuff, I guess the PicoLisp version for me would be the "normal" one, then?

15:17 <immasheepherrder> (With "normal" I mean the 32-bit version.)

15:19 <beneroth> no, the normal one is currently pil64

15:19 <beneroth> as nearly all CPU these days are 64bit

15:20 <immasheepherrder> Ah ok, thanks

15:20 <beneroth> the only meaningful use of pil32 these days might be if you want to have it's direct C interopability, but most of that you can get with the (native) function in pil64

15:21 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, actually a new edition of picolisp (vm implementation) was just finished, pil21 which is picolisp implemented in LLVM (a kind of compiler-standard)

15:21 <beneroth> probably this one will become the "primarily" picolisp edition (implementation) soonish

15:22 <beneroth> the main advantage is better compatibility, it runs on current androids and on Apple MacOS (which wasn't supported with pil64 because it has a exotic binary format)

15:22 <Regenaxer> I think this speed argument isn't true anyway on today's machines

15:22 <Regenaxer> Pil64 is in Asm

15:23 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, you can still use the older versions, they don't have any known bugs/issues, but the newer implementations have some more functionality and are actively getting extended, so to say

15:24 <Regenaxer> right

15:24 <Regenaxer> Pil32, Ersatz and Mini are not maintained any more

15:24 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, CRUD stuff is actually kinda the main usage of picolisp

15:24 <Regenaxer> Pil64 will be replaced by Pil21 soon

15:28 <Regenaxer> So, in summary, for a newcomer pil21 is the recomgended way to go :)

15:28 <Regenaxer> https://software-lab.de/pil21.tgz

15:28 <Regenaxer> I'm still working at the docs

15:29 <Regenaxer> INSTALL, README, doc/*.html are there

15:29 <immasheepherrder> Thanks guys, that's really helpful

15:29 <Regenaxer> :)

15:29 <tankf33der> https://github.com/picolisp/pil21

15:29 <Regenaxer> Exactly, even better

15:29 <Regenaxer> I think the refs need more tuning or corrections in some details

15:30 <Regenaxer> But basically they are done

15:31 <Regenaxer> tankf33der, https://git.envs.net/mpech/pil21 is correct too?

15:31 <tankf33der> yea

15:31 <Regenaxer> What is the diff to https://github.com/picolisp/pil21 ?

15:31 <tankf33der> on envs is mine mirror, on github is Mansur's.

15:32 <Regenaxer> ah, ok

15:32 <immasheepherrder> In case I have suggestions for the docs in the future, where should I post them?

15:32 <beneroth> here

15:33 <beneroth> or mailing list

15:33 <beneroth> or send patch to Regenaxer

15:33 <Regenaxer> yeah

15:33 <Regenaxer> easiest is here perhaps

15:34 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, first errors you will probably get is segfaults - no panic, you mistakenly called a symbol like a function without it's value being a function

15:34 <beneroth> you will not manage to do any more segfaults later

15:35 <Regenaxer> T

15:35 <beneroth> next level of learning picolisp is then being sure about finding a bug but actually using some function wrong, and the reference actually states it cleary (but it's very terse, therefore misreads happen)

15:36 <beneroth> or not knowing about a function. there are many :)

15:36 <beneroth> then it becomes more and more fun, and then you will start to hate programming in another language ;-)

15:37 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, check out rosetta code, that is a good help to get into picolisp: http://rosettacode.org/wiki/PicoLisp

15:38 <beneroth> most code there is either from Regenaxer or tankf33der

15:39 <Regenaxer> It is a useful place to look for programming examples

15:39 <immasheepherrder> Will do!

15:45 <immasheepherrder> I'm reading up on Pilog. One thing I was wondering: how portable is data contained in a Pilog database? Is it easy to extract it to a plain text format (or something like GNU recutils, e.g.), or would that require a lot of custom scripting?

15:45 <Regenaxer> It is fairly easy to write reports

15:46 <Regenaxer> Reports always also generate CSV while displaying the HTML

15:46 <Regenaxer> You find examples in the distro

15:47 <Regenaxer> (app/sales.l and app/inventory.l)

15:47 <Regenaxer> In the easiest case you write a one-liner

15:48 <Regenaxer> (for This (collect 'nm '+Item) (prinl (: nr) "\t" (: nm) "\t" (: pr)))

15:48 <Regenaxer> dumps all items in the DB

15:53 <beneroth> immasheepherrder, custom scripting is kinda needed, but it's much less effort than configuring stuff in other databases

15:56 <beneroth> https://picolisp.com/wiki/?pilvsorm

16:07 <immasheepherrder> Nice, thanks

16:12 <immasheepherrder> As a full-time Java developer It'll probably take some time adjusting to your much much shorter naming conventions.

16:12 <immasheepherrder> https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/finally-monitor-that-will-fit-the-entire-name-of-my-java-classes-panoramic-very-long.jpg

16:13 <Regenaxer> haha, yes, a neccessary gadget

16:14 <immasheepherrder> Is there a reason for that, btw? Other than personal preferences? Example: using "nm" as a class field, instead of "name".

16:14 <Regenaxer> (I should not tell here that I'm in fact working in 48 columns here)

16:14 <Regenaxer> for DB class field it makes sense

16:14 <Regenaxer> the names are stored along with the data

16:15 <immasheepherrder> Ah ok, so smaller name = smaller size of each record

16:15 <Regenaxer> Yes. "name" takes up 2 bytes more in *every* DB objecy

16:16 <Regenaxer> But I confess that I'm a bit paranoid about using too long names in general

16:16 <Regenaxer> It is easier to read at a single glance

16:17 <Regenaxer> (once you are *in* the code)

16:17 <beneroth> same applies to most NoSQL databases (to all "document databases" to be specific)

16:18 <Regenaxer> I see

16:18 <beneroth> (but there you usually just throw more hardware to it)

16:18 <beneroth> (green it is only marketing lie)