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<zrafa> again
<zrafa> hi
<wolfspraul> hi
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<wolfspraul> Made in Optimistan
<wolfspraul> Ben NanoNote and Milkymist One are Made in Optimistan
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<whitequark> so... pink
<whitequark> *brain melts*
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<wpwrak> whitequark: so that's what happens when barbie goes to university, takes philosophy classes, and finds an HTML editor someone left open in a classroom PC
<wolfspraul> I see - optimism unleashes its irresistible power :-)
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: what space/tab convention do you prefer personally?
<wolfspraul> in c sources
<wpwrak> linux kernel style. one tab per indentation level. four spaces for wrapped lines. void *foo(int bar)\n{\tvars;\n\tbody;\n} and \tif (cond) {\n\t\t...\n\t}
<blogic> wpwrak: \o/
<wpwrak> max 80 characters per line. if you have to wrap anyway, make it < 80.
<blogic> wpwrak: penalties for using spaces as indentation need to be imposed
<wpwrak> blogic: oh, lots of editors auto-handle this. what's important is that it's 8 :)
<wpwrak> i.e., there's a penalty in indenting. keeps you from writing ten levels deep nested madness - simply because there's no room for it :)
<Ayla> what editor are you using?
<wpwrak> vim
<Ayla> hmm
<wpwrak> (but any vi will do)
<Ayla> here I get two spaces after a IF without brackets, instead of a real tab
<Ayla> do you know how to change that?
<wpwrak> dunno. i don't use auto-indentation :)
<wpwrak> after a while, your fingers learn to do this on their own :)
<Ayla> well, then there's litle point to use VIM instead of gedit for instance
<wolfspraul> wpwrak: 8 or 4? (first you say "4 spaces for wrapped lines" then "important is that it's 8"
<wpwrak> don't know gedit. i like the compact and logical UI of vi
<wpwrak> wolfspraul: 8 per indentation level. +4 for wrapping. e.g., \tfoo = very_long_identifier(\n\t argument, argument,\n\t still_more);
<wolfspraul> ok, got it
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<wpwrak> let's see what else ... spaces around operators except for unary and basic arithmetic (+, -, *, /)
<wpwrak> sizeof(foo) looks like a function. return foo; doesn't. switch and case at the same level (that's a bit of a compromise - otherwise, switch gets too messy to use)
<wpwrak> space between cast and thing being cast. no pascal parentheses in boolean expressions. (i.e., a == b && c == d and not (a == b) && (c == d) )
<wpwrak> yeah, i think that's most of it. many more small details, of course )
<wpwrak> ah, also if .. else follows kernel style. so if (foo) bar; else blah; or if (foo) { bar; ...; } else { blah; ...; } or even if (foo) bar; else { blah; ...; } but not if (foo) { bar; ...; } else blah; instead, use if (foo) {bar; ...; } else { blah; }
<Ayla> I don't agree with switch/case
<Ayla> and the kernel guidelines forbid if (foo) bar; else { blah; ...; }
<Ayla> it should always be if (foo) { bar; } else { blah; ...; }
<Ayla> when there's a "else", that is
<Ayla> and even if "bar" is a single line of code
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<wpwrak> Ayla: this was discussed sometime ago on lkml and the verdict was that if (cond) one; else { one; two; } is okay
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<wpwrak> the example in CodingStyle is is (cond) { one; two; } else { one; }
<wpwrak> s/is is/is if/
<qi-bot> wpwrak meant: "the example in CodingStyle is if (cond) { one; two; } else { one; }"
<wpwrak> but that was a long long time ago :)
<wpwrak> anyway, gotta run. dentist is waiting
<Ayla> ok
<DocScrutinizer51> wpwrak: which direction are you running?
<DocScrutinizer51> toward or away from dentist?
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<lars_> wpwrak: just wanted to ask, when "sometime ago" was. CodingStyle is very explicit about that if one part has brackets the other part should have brackets two.
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<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: toward :) it's the fitting of a crown. the nasty bits are already done.
<wpwrak> lars_: hmm, maybe ~6 years ago. lemme see if there are still any traces around
<wpwrak> hmm, some old wisdom i found while searching: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2001-03/0260.html
<wpwrak> found the thread. was only a bit more than two years ago. and i mis-remembered: if (foo) x; else { y; z; } is still considered objectionable. just if (foo) x; else y; isn't.
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<DocScrutinizer> EEEEW! (i.e., a == b && c == d and not (a == b) && (c == d) )
<wpwrak> unlearn your pascal :)
<DocScrutinizer> nevaaar
<wpwrak> all those redundant parentheses just make the code hard to read
<DocScrutinizer> haha
<wpwrak> C has a very thoughtfully designed precedence system. there's no need to pretend it's the mess wirth has created in pascal.
<DocScrutinizer> a == b && c == d || a == b & c == d | a = b & c == d && a |= b & c == d
<DocScrutinizer> indeed, every thoughtful
<DocScrutinizer> ;-P
<wpwrak> that's why the great gnu has created compiler warnings :)
<qi-bot> [commit] Jiri Brozovsky: Compiler from (limited) C to language used by HP48 calculators (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/openwrt-packages/5edbd6c
<whitequark> I think that C's operator system can be improved
<whitequark> greatly
<whitequark> just borrow from perl
<DocScrutinizer> yeah, they tried to fix C compilers that way. The first C 'compilers' were actually bloated macro assemblers for a simple reason of hw not allowing anything better. So C isn't designed for coders but for optimal RAM footprint and CPU usage of the compiler itself, and no compiler warnings level will turn C into a decent coding language. Actually the fewer the syntactic alternatives to code one semantic chunk, the better for readability
<wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: please go on, while millions of happy C programmers productively ignore your ranting ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> which ranting? I'm just stating age old known facts
<DocScrutinizer> and I'm happy with assembler even
<DocScrutinizer> if you want to to start ranting, ask me about my notion regarding redundancy of ms-basic constructs: while 'condition' do bla blub enddo. vs repeat bla blub until not 'condition'.
<DocScrutinizer> s/to to/me to/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "if you want me to start ranting, ask me about my notion regarding redundancy of ms-basic constructs: while 'condition' do bla blub enddo. vs repeat bla blub until not 'condition'."
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<wpwrak> rants against ms-basic are about as relevant as placing dinosaur traps ;-)
<blogic> is ranting about gw-basic ok ? :D
<DocScrutinizer> whatever, on a human logic level your arguments about readability due to precedence system conflict with your recourse to compiler warnings which for sure weren't invented because nobody ever is messing up a term like a == b && c == d by leaving out one char
<DocScrutinizer> or put simpler: I don't agree on a == b && c == d being ANY readable
<DocScrutinizer> a && b << 3 | c == d
<DocScrutinizer> a & b < 3 || c = d
<DocScrutinizer> a && b < 3 || c == d
<DocScrutinizer> a && b < 3 | c == d
<viric> gcc managed to compile C without any optimal ram footprint
<viric> does that turn C more decent?
<DocScrutinizer> neither you nor gcc existed when the compilers were built according to my above rationale
<DocScrutinizer> C however existed already
<DocScrutinizer> C is an extremely powerful macroassembler, nothing beyond. A lot of experienced coders will agree on that
<viric> and what new exactly does your idea bring?
<DocScrutinizer> eh?
<viric> :)
<DocScrutinizer> and what new does your question introduce to the topic?
<viric> :)
<blogic> i thinkt the answer is "the above rational" or not ?
<blogic> +e
<DocScrutinizer> I think you lost me
<blogic> s/rational/rationale/g
<blogic> where is the sed bot ß
<DocScrutinizer> and the answer is 42, always been
<viric> Maybe it is me who got lost :)
<viric> I find C ok for its job
<DocScrutinizer> another undeniable fact is that *read*ability increases with redundancy, until it crosses a certain threshold. It maybe *write*ability that's better without "redundant" parentheses etc
<viric> do you like lisp? :)
<viric> C is quite a good balance between the complexity to write/read and the complexity of writing a compiler for it.
<viric> giving enough granularity to the programmer to achieve code that runs fast
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<DocScrutinizer> nonsense, nowadays no high level procedural language lacks the opportunity to allow coders to write fast code
<whitequark> blogic: sed bot is too stupid to understand perl syntax. just s///, nothing more.
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<whitequark> btw, this rant is funny
<whitequark> (note that I'm not saying any of the above is not true. just funny a bit.)
<blogic> s/rational/rationale/
<blogic> i thinkt the answer is "the above rational" or not ?
<blogic> s/rational/rationale/
<qi-bot> blogic meant: "i thinkt the answer is "the above rationale" or not ?"
<blogic> *magic*
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<DocScrutinizer> xxxxxxxxx
<DocScrutinizer> s/x/ABC/g
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "ABCABCABCABCABCABCABCABCABC"
<wolfspraul> people surely love that feature ;-)
<DocScrutinizer> yes
<wolfspraul> we should get some of those interactive fiction bots into the channel...
<DocScrutinizer> luckily buffer size is limited
<DocScrutinizer> what annoys way more is you can't fix 2 typos with sedbot
<DocScrutinizer> unless they are identical
<DocScrutinizer> tis sucks somtimes
<DocScrutinizer> s/tis/this/;s/somt/somet/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "this sucks sometimes"
<DocScrutinizer> duh
<DocScrutinizer> :-D
<DocScrutinizer> actually it's probably not exactly the buffersize that's limited, rather the max length of a single post as defined by freenode
<DocScrutinizer> xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#xxxxx#
<DocScrutinizer> s/x/0123456789/g
<DocScrutinizer> hah
<DocScrutinizer> xxxxx#
<DocScrutinizer> s/x/0123456789/g
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "01234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789#"
<DocScrutinizer> whitequark: sedbot it just not editing anything but the least post - blogic's last post was >>[2012-01-04 20:45:57] <blogic> +e<<
<DocScrutinizer> and even /g parameter isn't meant to change that
<DocScrutinizer> a funny idea though: s/x/y/G edits *all* posts ever posted by the user since last /join ;-D
<DocScrutinizer> wolfspraul: what do you think, will users love *that*? ;-)
<wolfspraul> ;-)
<whitequark> hmm
<whitequark> s,hmm,hm,
<whitequark> :/
<DocScrutinizer> sillii idea to think sedbot would act on all lines starting with "s" ;-D
<DocScrutinizer> s/illii/illy/;some illegal command
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "silly idea to think sedbot would act on all lines starting with "s" ;-D"
<DocScrutinizer> hahaha
<DocScrutinizer> ok
<DocScrutinizer> s/ok/OK/;!seen DocScrutinizer51
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "OK"
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<DocScrutinizer> in fact, I think: not even that will work
<DocScrutinizer> s/,//;s/://
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "in fact I think not even that will work"
<DocScrutinizer> ooh
<DocScrutinizer> s/o/(/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "((h"
<DocScrutinizer> MEH!!
<DocScrutinizer> thete's not been any /g
<DocScrutinizer> there*
<DocScrutinizer> I I wonder
<DocScrutinizer> s/I //
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "wonder"
<DocScrutinizer> now THAT is *BAD*
<DocScrutinizer> ibot/infobot/apt obeys /g
<DocScrutinizer> qi-bot has a bug
<DocScrutinizer> am I right in thinking qi.bot has a fine bug in this regex-sustition function?
<DocScrutinizer> s/in/with/
<qi-bot> DocScrutinizer meant: "am I right with thwithkwithg qi.bot has a fwithe bug with this regex-sustition function?"
<DocScrutinizer> :-/
<DocScrutinizer> who's qi-bot's master?
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<qi-bot> Ron K Jeffries: @qihardware ( 154695765929897984@RonKJeffries - 22s ago via web )
<qi-bot> Ron K Jeffries: Private key only bitcoin wallet. Zero trust, Easy Export, No split keys. http://t.co/yjuyx32b [via @zootreeves Ben Reeves]
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<jow_laptop> yay, Bitcoin spam via twitter relayed to IRC
<wolfspraul> yay well
<wolfspraul> I actually clicked on the link to see whether there is open hardware there, but couldn't find it right away
<jow_laptop> ;)
<wolfspraul> jow_laptop: what do you think about bitcoins?
<wolfspraul> seems at some point a technology like that begs for dedicated secure hardware
<wolfspraul> which should be open to be secure imho
<roh> wolfspraul: bc arent the answer to the question for digital money. they are an experiment stirring stuff up to see whats possible.
<wolfspraul> yes, roughly my thinking too. but as a transaction medium they work today, I would sell nanos and milkys for bitcoins, no problem.
<wolfspraul> also the combination of cryptography and networking is so interesting, maybe it can be used for other applications
<wolfspraul> from a hardware side, I think this stuff cannot work unless there is secure hardware
<roh> in the end it boils down to a technical issue. how to make sure its an exchange currency and not a currency imploding as the real ones right now due to speculation
<DocScrutinizer> bitcoin, a chain letter philosophy concept
<wolfspraul> well I'm a small business man, and I am struggling with payment systems every day
<wolfspraul> every time I struggle, I think of bitcoin now and there is *hope* :-)
<wolfspraul> thank you bitcoin!
<wolfspraul> so I definitely sell hardware for bitcoins, no problem
<wolfspraul> DocScrutinizer: you send me some bitcoins, I send you a Milkymist One ;-)
<wolfspraul> I do not believe in the revolutionary part of bitcoins though, they will not replace other currencies etc.
<wolfspraul> but maybe a small little payment system, for geeks first? right now it seems to work...
<wolfspraul> unless someone breaks through the crypto part right away and makes an infinite number of them, I think they will continue to stay around
<DocScrutinizer> I found nobody who was able to convince 9 others and me about bitcoins being a thing worth looking into
<DocScrutinizer> and tbh I'm not looking for somebody
<erikkugel> everything has it's merits, but bitcoin's main advantage currently is hiding illegal activity. Once it had OTHER advantages, popularity might grow.