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<wolfspraul>
TESTING
<wolfspraul>
the keyboard patches caused quite a stir on the list
<wolfspraul>
I cannot immediately respond to this now
<wolfspraul>
seems all sorts of conflicts there :-)
<wpwrak>
keyboard patches ? looking ...
<wolfspraul>
some people have no time, wish they had more, push feature-adoption to infinity, etc.
<wolfspraul>
I will just wait a little and uptick again - it's easier now
<wolfspraul>
the KiCad core team first has to sort out some internal things
<wolfspraul>
what Wayne had responded with initially would have made any politician proud
<wolfspraul>
I think for now the patches will be moving nowhere
<wpwrak>
nice reaction by Hoteev Sergey ;-)
<wpwrak>
"It is FUTURE!" :)
<wolfspraul>
yeah but there seem to be serious conflicts internally
<wolfspraul>
that would also explain the inconsistent renames I'm seeing
<wpwrak>
(wayne) you mean the reply from last year ?
<wolfspraul>
and that separation vaguely described there will never happen, I don't even need to ask for specifics because it's obvious they just want to make the issue go away
<wolfspraul>
no, the new stuff
<wolfspraul>
some people seem to have too much time/commitment to officially call it quits, yet too little to make solid changes
<wpwrak>
hmm, don't see it in the thread
<wolfspraul>
and they cannot decide which way to go ;-)
<wpwrak>
which subject ?
<wolfspraul>
Jan 20, same subject
<wolfspraul>
"I apologize for not responding sooner" (not really needed when I needed a year to respond :-))
<wpwrak>
ah, he broke the thread
<wolfspraul>
"hold off until we separate the underlying object code from the UI code and implement it as a DLL/SO"
<wolfspraul>
that must be from the "how can I talk my dumb manager into leaving me alone hacking" seminar
<wolfspraul>
later in the thread he admits that that magic "separation" is at least 1 year out
<wolfspraul>
"at least" :-)
<wolfspraul>
yeah
<wpwrak>
"It is at best a year out." ;-)
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
I could restructure the patches in many ways, but there is no guidance/leadership at this moment.
<wolfspraul>
yet the magic 'separation' will still not fall from the sky...
<wolfspraul>
so I plan to do nothing right now
<wolfspraul>
uplevel once in a while
<wpwrak>
yeah, that may be the best approach
<wolfspraul>
it's a bit worrisome at least the way Wayne describes it that the "other lead developers" (all?) seem to all want to push this out a year or more?
<wpwrak>
there's a lot of things they plan to change. e.g., the board file format. that's been pending for well over a year as well
<wolfspraul>
that could make someone think KiCad development has haltet...
<wolfspraul>
halted
<wolfspraul>
yes but maybe all those things are actually in "x years" status
<wolfspraul>
makes me proud of the Ben NanoNote :-)
<wpwrak>
i guess if people get too restless, a fork may happen at some point in time
<wolfspraul>
it cannot survive a fork, because there is already geda
<wolfspraul>
the footprint library is in abysmal state
<wpwrak>
so far, it hasn't, but there's been noises several times already
<wpwrak>
oh, i don't see a problem with a fork, as long as there are people who are motivated to keep it going
<wolfspraul>
I think the osmo-sdr guys switched from kicad to geda because of better scriptability somewhere, but I think it was inside the design (not sure).
<wolfspraul>
yeah, but this is too distracting for me
<wolfspraul>
so I can only uplevel, a bit more regularly than before
<wolfspraul>
I can't get into the kicad thing now
<wpwrak>
(distracting) we can just wait and see. if someone forks and doesn't fall over his or her own feet too quickly, we can join the new crowd
<wolfspraul>
well yeah, but this needs an active developer base of multiple people really intensively hacking on
<wolfspraul>
at least
<wpwrak>
i guess it needs people who can really sink 100% of their time into it
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
isn't it funny how he describes the 'separation'?
<wolfspraul>
and that is after a talk with other lead devs?
<wolfspraul>
what separation?
<wpwrak>
for dick, wayne, etc., it's basically a weekend project
<wolfspraul>
a bunch of C++ classes directly through the dynamic library?
<wolfspraul>
and then - which ones?
<wolfspraul>
the GUI classes?
<wolfspraul>
the entire current code structure doesn't lean itself towards any kind of 'separation'
<wolfspraul>
it's just handwaving really
<wolfspraul>
"please go away and don't ask us details. and come back as late as possible"
<wolfspraul>
actually I think the current code structure is not bad, I would just leave it like that and gradually cleanup further
<wpwrak>
i think they want to separate the data model better from the GUI. right now, it's all mixed together
<wolfspraul>
but the separation as it is described there will never happen, 100% wishful thinking
<wpwrak>
of course, whether a cleaner separation really improves things in the end also remains to be seen
<wolfspraul>
sure, but they haven't gotten beyond the "we should really have this" level
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
because that's a quite well known problem
<wpwrak>
sometimes, a hundred ugly lines are better than five million beautifully structured ones
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
but there is nothing I can do, really. just uplevel.
<wolfspraul>
the patches will stay outside.
<wpwrak>
yeah. we can try to piss them off a little. make them feel their control might slip if they don't integrate those features :)
<wpwrak>
well, a few of the responses already went in this direction ;-)
<wolfspraul>
it's a design program, so the focus will always be GUI
<wpwrak>
yes and no. there is a deeper layer that's not GUI-centric
<wolfspraul>
if the focus is completely scripted, one could write an entirely separate engine that directly modifies the files
<wolfspraul>
ok I'm just starting to think for them
<wpwrak>
yes. that's what we currently do. and i don't mind doing that.
<wolfspraul>
so if the main focus of Kicad is to be a (manual) design program, then naturally it's ok that a few command-line options are being 'inserted' into the otherwise integrated codes, as the patches are doing
<wolfspraul>
we could cleanup that 'insertion' to a really nice level
<wpwrak>
the files are not extremely pretty but i've worked with worse
<wolfspraul>
like I said, if the focus of the entire binary is 90% manual visual editing, and 10% at most some (few) extracted codepaths accessible via command line, then that is just fine
<wolfspraul>
the cmdline gives you access to maybe 1% of what kicad can do in the GUI
<wpwrak>
yes, the problem of the command-line patches is that they try to reuse a lot of what kicad has. that's why there's a conflicht
<wolfspraul>
that's not a problem, that's by design
<wpwrak>
e.g., fped just ignores all the kicad code base
<wolfspraul>
the command line options just auto-execute the GUI for you
<wolfspraul>
oh sure, that's a separate tool
<wpwrak>
yes, but it's that design property that creates the conflict for the command-line patches, while i can dodge that with fped.
<wolfspraul>
actually the patches are quite clean
<wolfspraul>
there's a global, and some ugliness in some dialogs, but these things could all be cleaned up easily
<wolfspraul>
without waiting for a separation that will never happen
<wolfspraul>
but like I said, I will do nothing
<wolfspraul>
just uplevel
<wolfspraul>
not my battle
<wpwrak>
naw, their problems seems to be that you talk to their old code, while they'd wish you to talk to their new code instead
<wolfspraul>
new code?
<wpwrak>
alas, the lack of a time machine makes itself noticed once more ...
<wolfspraul>
ah, ok
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
that separatoin is really nonsense
<wolfspraul>
it will not happen
<wpwrak>
it may not be nonsense
<wpwrak>
that's a possibility
<wolfspraul>
well then it's already there
<wolfspraul>
they have it all nicely in dialog classes
<wolfspraul>
it's all fine
<wolfspraul>
it's a GUI app
<wolfspraul>
sure they could move non-gui stuff in one corner, and gui stuff in another corner - but that is already happening
<wolfspraul>
any practical insertion of a few cmdline switches would still go right through this
<wpwrak>
sure. it's just mismatched perfectionism.
<wpwrak>
the argument would be perfectly valid if they'd be working on a massive redesign that's to be completed soon. but there's no "soon" in there.
<wpwrak>
maybe they're just old and slow ;-) clone sebastien, run a global FPGA to EDA substitute on the clone, and then let him loose on kicad, and we'll have a fork that outperforms all our wishes in a few weeks ;-)
<wpwrak>
anyway, i agree with your conclusion that upleveling is the best we can do at the moment
<wpwrak>
just outsitting it doesn't work, because changes are happening in the code base
<wpwrak>
but the future perfect code isn't a realistic target either. i.e., you can't do anything today to make your patches work with that
<wpwrak>
it's also good to have the functionality around, so that people can get a taste of what it is like
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<qi-bot>
Pete Ippel ‽: RT @qihardware: Raspberry Pi Founder Eben Upton Walks You Through the Launch of the $35 Computer http://t.co/MhbYBLU8 @Fabricatorz ( 161986940202254336@hypermodern - 51s ago via HootSuite )
<kristianpaul>
wow i see now why other people uses geda :)
<kristianpaul>
better i dint tried learn kicad yet :)
<kristianpaul>
good that geda have its BOM :)
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<wpwrak>
hmm ? what did you see ? and what BOM ?
<qi-bot>
Jon Phillips: Via @qihardware qihardware: Raspberry Pi Founder Eben Upton Walks You Through the Launch of the $35 Computer http://... http://t.co/mIOdtCuB ( 162029771742650368@rejon - 39s ago via Ping.fm )
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<DocScrutinizer>
wpwrak: kicad broke ??I ?
<DocScrutinizer>
rather [A-Z]{1;2}I
<DocScrutinizer>
IE API|ABI|UI|GUI|...
<DocScrutinizer>
CLI
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