Topic for #qi-hardware is now Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs
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<kristianpaul>
DocScrutinizer05: Have you fixed your n900 for mic (people dont hear your) problems?
<kristianpaul>
Hi btw :_)
<DocScrutinizer05>
kristianpaul: I never knew I had those problems
<kristianpaul>
hmm
<kristianpaul>
but you heard of it perhaps?
<kristianpaul>
from googling seems to be a know issue
<DocScrutinizer05>
I heard of some allegedly hw defects triggered by hmmmm maybe early FM-radio app implementations, on maemo
<DocScrutinizer05>
some 2 or 3 years ago
<kristianpaul>
hmm? and an app can damage hw or just a soft issue?
<kristianpaul>
dont get it..
<DocScrutinizer05>
me neither
<kristianpaul>
xD
<DocScrutinizer05>
there've been like 2 or 3 reports of mic ceasing to work, and allegedly(!) a full reflash wasn't able to cure the problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
but maybe PEBKAC
<kristianpaul>
hope so :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway those guys sent in their devices and got them back "repaired" - nobody knows what Nokia Care did, maybe they simply did proper reset/reflash
<kristianpaul>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
from schematics I have a hard time figuring how to kill mic and related circuitry on a hw level
<kristianpaul>
the wires are hard to access? or?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wires?
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc the mics are SMT and digital
<kristianpaul>
s/wires/pcb routes/s
<qi-bot>
kristianpaul meant: "the pcb routes are hard to access? or?"
<kristianpaul>
sorry sorry yes
<kristianpaul>
digital..
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<DocScrutinizer05>
mompls, I check back
<kristianpaul>
now i see more senss for the PEBKAC
<kristianpaul>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
B4030 "Digital Microphone"
<DocScrutinizer05>
VDD, CLK, DATA, GND
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe they fried the DATA output of the mic by programming GPIO1_A of codec to output?
<kristianpaul>
erghh
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see any other way to fry mic
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I doubt this way would actually work
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooops sorry, GPIO2_A
<DocScrutinizer05>
GPIO1_A is mic's CLOCK, via 100R, so unlikely to do any harm, no matter what you'd do to that GPIO
<kristianpaul>
ah yes clk is is 01
<DocScrutinizer05>
DATA <- [L4032,120R] -> GPIO2_A
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I gather the 120R are at 100MHz, according to writing on that bead
<DocScrutinizer05>
DATA <- [L4032; 120R/100MHz] -> GPIO2_A - actually
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, I doubt there's any hw problem re N900 internal mic
<kristianpaul>
okay
<kristianpaul>
what about microsd any know issues on your side?
<DocScrutinizer05>
uSD? no known issues either
<kristianpaul>
okay
* kristianpaul
click buy?
<DocScrutinizer05>
except for some kerneldriver fix for a particular transcend(?) card that might get permanently damaged otherwise
<kristianpaul>
urghh?...
<kristianpaul>
ha
<kristianpaul>
i tought the kernel damaging intel e1000 cards was the top...
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, one single build of a card
<kristianpaul>
the same i heard for the intel nic...
<DocScrutinizer05>
and that's a linuxwide bug fixed by TI or Intel
<kristianpaul>
yes sure
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you'd need powerkernel to get the fix, I guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
not sure if Pali included it or not
<DocScrutinizer05>
or you run your own bleeding edge kernel anyway, dunno what you plan to do
<kristianpaul>
i just sat the offer
<kristianpaul>
saw*
<DocScrutinizer05>
which offer?
<kristianpaul>
i will run maemo for sure (if i decide buy)
<DocScrutinizer05>
though they claim "new, unused, in unopened original package"
<DocScrutinizer05>
if that's the truth, it would be a good buy
<DocScrutinizer05>
if it's not true, you could send it back - haha
<kristianpaul>
ha
<DocScrutinizer05>
kristianpaul: well, this "Hongkong" offer is actually a seller from Israel with a lot of nasty negative ratings, all about "goods actually not new"
<kristianpaul>
...... :-|
<DocScrutinizer05>
I suggest you check ebay for ~2 weeks, I'm rather confident something decent will show up
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<LunaVorax>
Hey!
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<xiangfu>
kyak, Hi.
<xiangfu>
kyak, I have tried linux-3.6.0 + xburst-tools. it works fine here. what is your libusb version? (`libusb-config --version` give me : 0.1.12)
<kyak>
xiangfu: hi
<kyak>
0.1.12 here as well
<kyak>
but it's definitely kernel
<kyak>
mine is 3.6.3
<kyak>
i skipped 3.6.0
<kyak>
the previous working one was 3.5.6
<kyak>
i;m using xburst-tools version 201206 it that matters
<kyak>
though usbboot --version says 201104
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<xiangfu>
kyak, ok. I build both 3.6.0 and 3.7.0 (I am using the git source code). both work fine here. I am download 3.6.3 now.
<xiangfu>
reboot for test 3.6.3 + xburst-tools
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<xiangfu>
kyak: Hi. I am under linux-3.6.3 now.
<xiangfu>
linux-3.6.3 + xburst-tools works fine here. I have tried relfash bootloader and kernel to nanonote.
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<kyak>
xiangfu: damn -\ i'm glad it works for you, but i'm dissappointed that this is not reproducable
<xiangfu>
kyak, can you try run usbboot -c "boot;reset" now? paste the output somewhere.
<lindi->
e2580: but where does it say that it is an open source license?
<e2580>
several places on the page
<lindi->
e2580: well it says it is similar to open source
<e2580>
the first line it says it
<e2580>
it says it is similar to the open source software license
<lindi->
yeah similar
<e2580>
this is hardware, which is different
<lindi->
yeah I don't think there is a clear definition on what "open hardware" means
<e2580>
no, there isnt
<lindi->
thus it's confusing to use "open source" there since open source has a clear meaning
<e2580>
that is still a new area
<e2580>
the software is open source, as you expect it to be
<lindi->
e2580: I hope so :)
<e2580>
we are just trying to prevent big industry from comoing in and making a ton of the devices and knocking us out of market
<e2580>
we dont care what individuals do
<lindi->
if open hardware means that then I'll definition want to work on something else
<e2580>
the device is made to be modified
<lindi->
s/definition/definitely/
<qi-bot>
lindi- meant: "if open hardware means that then I'll definitely want to work on something else"
<roh>
make it copyleft, but excluding business per se isnt compatible with 'opensource' from most definitions
<roh>
also it would kill all verticals, even the ones buying your hw
<e2580>
so what is your suggestion for securing we are able to get our investment back in the sales of the hardware and still keep it open source ?
<roh>
copyleft license
<e2580>
significant cost has gone into the development of this project
<e2580>
any links you suggest?
<roh>
look up copyleft
<roh>
you know the bsd vs gpl differences? most of that
<roh>
if someone can copy your hw and redo all the 'getting it produced' hoops and loops, and still make money, you didnt listen to your customers
<roh>
because you can sell cheaper than anybody who doesnt know the design and all its details
<roh>
making hardware is 20% concept, 20% design/development, 20%software and 40% production complications
<roh>
the latter 40% is what you dont release, since the data would only be valid for your process on your machines. thats what makes you money. because its your advantage in time to 'get things falling out of the production line'
<e2580>
we plan to release all files, so the gerber files for pcb, solder mask files, BOM, etc..
<e2580>
you can order pcbs, and parts and build them
<e2580>
even source files from altium will be provided
<e2580>
schematic, pcb layout files etc..
<e2580>
for editing
<e2580>
our other option is to hold these hardware files until we recoup our investment, then release them
<e2580>
or change the license after we hit profit
<e2580>
open it at that point
<roh>
sure. if you dont have anybody elses code in there...
<e2580>
not for hardware
<e2580>
we are open to ideas and suggestions on this
<roh>
well.. i am not your target group, so maybe i am the wrong one to ask ;) but i'd advice to sell worldwide.
<e2580>
we cant
<roh>
no reason to make hw and not sell it. make it in china and sell it directly to europe or via some european importer if us exports are worrysome.
<e2580>
export laws on crypto
<roh>
pfff.
<roh>
your phone pbx are chinese code already... dont worry *veg*
<e2580>
well, if you want to make and sell outside the US, let me know
<e2580>
we will sell pcb to anyone
<roh>
e2580: you want to make and source everything in the us?
<e2580>
and we will sell device with no MCU on it
<e2580>
no, i work with people all over the world to make this project
<roh>
whow.. expensive chip
<e2580>
its not that i have issues it, there is export laws we have to abide by
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<roh>
e2580: and that means 'you need to loose money'?
<wpwrak>
perhaps the best way to circumvent the export restrictions on the chip is to manufacture abroad. e.g., china probably doesn't care about such things :)
<wpwrak>
roh: the cost calculation between original maker and copycat is different: the original maker also tries to recover the initial R&D investment. the copycat doesn't have that issue and can therefore be profitable on lower margins.
<wpwrak>
e2580: you'd probably be fine just gpl/cc-by-sa/etc.-ing it. the rock-bottom copycats won't care about your license anyway, but they may also be too busy cloning some big brand name stuff to even notice you.
<wpwrak>
e2580: the "big but still reasonably nice guys" tend to fear gpl-type licenses, so it would take forever for a clone to clear their legal department. besides, they'd want to do their own branding and so on.
<wpwrak>
e2580: that leaves the small and nice guys who have high overhead and who'd probably have a hard time competing with your volume production.
<wpwrak>
besides, you have a headstart with your brand name. as long as people associate it with quality, they may not trust the copycats. security is a good place to play on customer paranoia ;-)
<e2580>
not really trying to sell paranoia
<e2580>
enough security devices do that
<e2580>
we wanted to provide an actual solution
<e2580>
we have no interest in directly selling outside the US, actually if a reliable distributor outside the US wants to work a deal, we may consider listing them in our website for official non US sales
<wpwrak>
oh, you don't need to sell paranoia. but you can still be quite certain that it's out there ;-)
<wpwrak>
besides, anyone who cares enough about security to buy your device is unlikely to be the blissfully unconcerned and blindly trusting type
<e2580>
its only paranoia until someone trys to attack you
<wpwrak>
why limit yourself to the US ? it's a big world out there ...
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: yes here, good morning. what's up?
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<wpwrak>
wolfspra1l: wrong w* ;-) whitequark was looking for you
<wolfspra1l>
oh
<wolfspra1l>
no coffee yet
<wpwrak>
e2580: of course, having international distributors is always good, also to limit shipping costs, customs hassles, local crypto regulations, and so on
<wpwrak>
hmm ... does anyone know whether FR4 (the pcb material, without copper or any other coating/treatment) is food-safe ? i just figured that i could mill a nice garlic-peeling device, but i need one or two boards of material that can resist mild acids. alas, that eliminates aluminium.
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<wpwrak>
actually, Al may still be an option, as long as it's washed soon after use. hmm. need to conduct some experiments on that.
<wpwrak>
acrylic would be an all-around safe choice, but it's probably too brittle for that task.