DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
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<wpwrak> hmm, trying the latest net-next (after not touching the ben kernel for a few months). the kernel loses usb once again :-( doesn't even seem to try to initialize it
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<larsc> works fine on 3.10 for me
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<whitequark> hahaha, i just found an android application which is basically delphi for touchscreen devices
<whitequark> it's sad and miserable. people using it clearly want shell scripting but they don't know it
<whitequark> instead they have an incredibly limited, action list based language, er, "language", and GUI editor like this: https://twitter.com/whitequark/status/360779649913085952/photo/1
* whitequark is using this to autodisable GSM in presence of WiFi: at my place there's almost zero cellular coverage so that eats battery pretty fast
<whitequark> and I use SIP anyway.
<biot> it's the old "in the future, we'll all be programming by dragging graphic blocks around" gag
<biot> been hearing that one since the '80s
<whitequark> though I will _sometimes_ rewrite this in Java, because the thing's all strange proprietary stuff installed on my system partition. don't like that, but in short term it works
<whitequark> biot: which alternatives do you have for touch devices?
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<whitequark> it's horrible, but it does the job, and I don't really see a way to do it better
<viric> I always say that technology improvements go in the direction of providing the kind of devices only disabled people had, to a broader audience.
<whitequark> viric: oh. I will quote you on that, be sure.
<viric> :)
<viric> a normal person now has the tech that only disabled people had 10 years ago
<viric> :)
<whitequark> that's... so deliciously double-edged
<viric> ;) yes
<wpwrak> (alternatives) get a keyboard ? :)
<viric> there is a very good spanish film from the 50s, on the topic of disabled people, and devices that assist them
<viric> I was shocked by seeing a person without arms drive a motorbike
<whitequark> wpwrak: annnd what do I do with it?
<viric> it's a very short scene; let's see if someone put that on youtube
<whitequark> interestingly, Android supports keyboard surprisingly well. for example, it handles F-keys, Esc, and Tab automatically works in every single UI form or widget in it
<whitequark> I think Android initially was developed for devices with keyboards, Blackberry-like, but it's nice to see this wasn't lost.
<whitequark> still, almost none apps are suited for users with keyboards.
<whitequark> and if I have to write stuff myself, I can as well get my Eclipse on my notebook and just implement what could be three lines of a shell script in several pages of Java boilerplate
<whitequark> that would surely be faster and easier than doing essentially the same, but on the phone itself.
<viric> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw-CraEap-0 it's this film; about an elder, whose friends all have some kind of motorbikes because they can't walk anymore. He can walk, hasn't such a vehicle, and feels out of the friend gang. :)
<wpwrak> whitequark: then you're all set for proper development, and can use a language that's designed to get things done :)
<whitequark> wpwrak: like what? :D
<whitequark> I mean, it's hard to believe that you have just called Java a "language designed to get things done"
<whitequark> more like "designed to wear out your keyboard", amirite? :D
<wpwrak> whitequark: you know the answer is C :)
<whitequark> ha
<whitequark> I guess I would need to toss out Android then, as it only provides Java APIs for the stuff I want
<wpwrak> can't they have wrappers and such ?
<whitequark> then I would need to write like two times the boilerplate just to expose the interfaces to C, *and* the C code
<wpwrak> write the wrapper once, use it forever
* whitequark nods
<whitequark> that may actually be a good idea. not in order to use C, of course, but in order to enable things which can use the C ABI
<whitequark> i.e. just about everything.
<whitequark> an Android port of Common Lisp recently made news. I've looked into the code. it's hilarious.
<wpwrak> well, common lisp is a bit of a practical joke :)
<whitequark> instead of using the incredibly overpowered GPU on board, they let you either: render *all* graphics with a rasterizer written in CL, or just implement GUI in Java and business logic in CL
<wpwrak> don't get me wrong. i love the language. but it's not the kind of thing i'd burden myself with when straying outside the ivory tower
<whitequark> hmpf
<whitequark> the technical aspects of that CL application *itself* (apart from android bridge) are satisfying
<whitequark> fast enough, etc, etc
<whitequark> but social, I agree with you
* whitequark glares at the OCaml source code of his compiler
<whitequark> from what I understand, there's a significant cost of going from Javaland to Cland on Android.
<whitequark> I've looked into it myself a while ago
<whitequark> it doesn't seem to make that much sense unless you're just tossing an OpenGL context to C and drawing some kind of game-like stuff in it
<whitequark> it has rudimentary built-in capabilities for handling input events and that's it. everything else you have to wrap yourself, and it's not easy nor cheap
<whitequark> so, unless your language can compile to Java bytecode, you're having a hard time.
<whitequark> but! there's a lot of languages which compile to Java. Scala (the C++ of FP!), Clojure, OCaml, just from the top of my mind, work on it already
<whitequark> hm.
<whitequark> I may as well look into running ocamljava on android. That at least sounds like fun, unlike writing JAva
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<wpwrak> i just wish those nand file systems didn't have that self-destruct-on-mount-failure feature :-(
<whitequark> did you just kill something?
<wpwrak> (tried to run a kernel on the ben that didn't have the nand layout change -> rootfs gone)
<whitequark> I'm sure you have an initrd with a shell handy :)
<wpwrak> naw, it's usbboot time ..
<whitequark> yup, usbboot to a kernel with a shell, restore stuff
<whitequark> that's how I did it on xz0032
<wpwrak> at least it's an idbg-equipped ben. no fumbling with the USB_BOOT contacts
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<wpwrak> how do i restore a ubifs that's so badly damaged that it doesn't even mount ? and even if it's possible, do i really want to waste time on that ? :)
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<whitequark> by restore I meant wipe and reimage :)
<pcercuei> wpwrak: mkfs
<pcercuei> heh
<wpwrak> yeah, that's what i'm doing. reflash_ben.sh :)
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<whitequark> what the hell, now Ubuntu supporters spam freenode with requests for donations
<pcercuei> for their phone?
<whitequark> yes
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<whitequark> http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge → Risks and challenges
<whitequark> that really reads as "we have no idea what we are doing. at all."
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<lekernel> whitequark, what spam?
<lekernel> I didn't see it
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<whitequark> wasn't on this channel, sec
<lekernel> I'm a bit skeptical of those claims that such projects "divert resources" from more interesting OSHW projects
<lekernel> RPI = > 1 million units sold, and the software is not impressive
<lekernel> the resources such projects divert are probably not worth much anyway
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<lekernel> and I would not call this ubuntu gadget uninteresting. I'm not excited about the hardware of course, but if someone could make an embedded free software GUI with a great design, I'd call it progress.
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<paul_boddie> whitequark: I guess that's the "Ubuntu Edge Referral Contest" in action.
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<whitequark> lekernel: they already made it
<whitequark> it's essentially regular desktop/netbook ubuntu running in an android chroot.
<whitequark> or do you mean th ephone GUI?
<whitequark> any of you seen a board like this http://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/tinykitlist/100-meggyjr, but in form of an arduino shield (yes, I know)
<whitequark> so, led matrix, buttons, possibly a speaker.
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<whitequark> I found shields with any one of these but not with all of them.
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<rz2k> (yes, I know) - lol
<rz2k> :)
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