<hellekin>
the group was started after a proposal was made to politicians in Argentina to remove import taxes on electronics for free hardware+free software projects
<kristianpaul>
oh,hi hellekin
<kristianpaul>
just for floss hardware+software projects?
<larsc>
meanwhile in europe microsoft tries to outlaw free software because it does 'predatory pricing'
<whitequark>
it's like they hired entire The Onion staff to write new legislature while high on meth
<whitequark>
and I'm not even exaggerating
<whitequark>
"The very Mizulina explained the audience that swear words - it is a way of interaction, based on the conflict, and at the heart of Russian society have always been love, kindness, tolerance and harmony. In the real world, she says, children shield of foul language, and just need to act on the web."
<whitequark>
"He said that the Russian language - it is a strategic factor of Russia's national security, because it forms the consciousness and subconsciousness of people. Consequently, the spread of obscene language must be treated as a national threat."
<wpwrak>
quick, arrest the foul language terrorists !
<whitequark>
yes, this is exactly how I expect it to be
<wpwrak>
and confiscate the radios, for they are weapons of mass destruction !
<larsc>
speak-crime
<viric>
anyone here knows much about grounding?
<viric>
a linux router, in the top of a mountain, with a wifi antenna, and a solar panel...
<viric>
would you add ground?
<whitequark>
no
<viric>
or, with a metal pole, would you simply attach the ethernet shield to it?
<whitequark>
oh, wait, ethernet
<viric>
:)
<whitequark>
(I expected some kind of mesh.)
<whitequark>
so you have shielded ethernet there?
<whitequark>
SUTP or how it's called
<viric>
well... imagine three small radio devices with linux, connected to a bigger router device.
<viric>
yes
<viric>
I *might* have it. I'm deciding.
<viric>
Some people choose not to use it, some do.... I think the best would be to use shielded ethernet.
<whitequark>
not sure in this case. ethernet itself is differential and galvanically isolated from the router.
<whitequark>
ethernet pairs that is
<viric>
but there can accumulate big amounts of static electricity
<viric>
(due to isolation)
<viric>
no?
<whitequark>
ask wpwrak :)
<viric>
wpwrak: ! :)
<viric>
whitequark: I wasn't sure about the isolation in ethernet. then it even makes more sense to use shielded ethernet
<whitequark>
well, in the router, the shield of the socket will be connected to the internal router ground
<whitequark>
I'm not sure if the ethernet plug somehow connects the shields
<whitequark>
never really used SUTP
<viric>
ok
<viric>
so you think that in some cases SUTP can be *bad*?
<whitequark>
I'd imagine if it did, that would lead to nasty ground loops
<whitequark>
so it probably doesn't
<whitequark>
but better ask someone who knows for sure
<viric>
does russian have the same word for earth ground and circuit ground?
<viric>
namely, 'ground'?
<wpwrak>
if you can have big potential differences, grounding the device sounds like a good idea to me. of course, that means that you then build the potential between the source of the difference and the device's ground vs. between device and ethernet.
<viric>
here we say, respectively, terra i massa.
<viric>
wpwrak: storms can cause big potentials on ungrounded devices, no?
<wpwrak>
but maybe a real EE, like DocScrutinizer05 could shed some light on such questions :)
* DocScrutinizer05
burps
<wpwrak>
in general, i'd say that grounding can't make things worse, but it may expose flaws more quickly
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, busy with PHP + SQL debugging
<viric>
fair.
<viric>
poor DocScrutinizer05
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<wpwrak>
viric: are we talking about lightning protection ? :)
<viric>
I don't mean to resist lightning right on the device
<viric>
:)
<viric>
I mean that an isolated part of the circuit (ground, shield), when there is a storm, can act as a big capacitor vs earth.
<viric>
lightning happens because there is a big tension between earth and clouds.
<viric>
A middle isolated device is likely to suffer from that electric field
<viric>
well, that's my picture. It may be wrong enough. :)
<wpwrak>
if you get a lightning discharge into the device, you're probably happy that you made that ground connection. well, unless you used the piping as "ground", because that one can have a reasonably high Z path to earth, which means that the discharge electrifies your piping system ;-)
<wpwrak>
it works especially well if you have plastic pipes but metal faucets :)
<wpwrak>
but i don't really know about general precautions
<viric>
well, one thing is home, where you have a ready ground connection
<viric>
another thing is a device alone in the top of a mountain
<viric>
do you think tv antenna poles are grounded?
<wpwrak>
as i said, i think a bit of grounding can't hurt. but you have to make sure the devices involved are properly built. if they have high potentials at weird places and aren't (mis-)designed to survive that, then grounding can kill them.
<viric>
aha
<viric>
for example, adsl routers have no kind of grounding
<viric>
usual home adsl routers
<wpwrak>
for example, i had a wall wart that passed a bit too much current from the primary side through its capacitative coupling and a device that had no suitable overvoltage protection. grounding it killed it.
<wpwrak>
you're not really expected to have strong fields in your home :)
<viric>
hehe
<viric>
I know, but I wondered if I could put one of such boards in a box on a mountain
<wpwrak>
i don't quite understand the rules for grounding RF antennas. some are some aren't. RF is magic :)
<wpwrak>
for example, one end of the atben/atusb antenna connects directly to (circuit) ground
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<viric>
ok
<viric>
I should know about that...
<viric>
but my university studies didn't help me join theory and practice
<whitequark>
wpwrak: (grounding) I'm pretty sure that if lightning strikes your wifi router, it (and everything connected to it) is dead either way
<whitequark>
several feeble mm2 of grounding wires won't stand that, no?
<whitequark>
viric: (russian word) yes, "earth" and "ground" are the same word.
<viric>
well, lightning can break a device due to heat, sound wave, or electric field.
<viric>
If properly grounded, you avoid the electric field part
<whitequark>
all of the above :)
<whitequark>
viric: are you sure?
<whitequark>
btw, talking about russian words
<whitequark>
"massa" is used too, but I only heard it in automotive context
<viric>
well, that's what grounding is for, no? avoiding electric fields.
<viric>
whitequark: ah ok.
<viric>
ah you mean Felipe Massa
<viric>
:)
<viric>
Massa in catalan means, among others, 'mass' in English. I think it has the role of "inertia", in a circuit.
<viric>
The unmovable, the reference, ...
<whitequark>
sure, russian "масса"
<whitequark>
transliterated as "massa", translated as "mass"
<larsc>
in german we call electrical ground "mass" too
<whitequark>
I think there's a certain word for "circuit ground"
<viric>
Unrelated, it also means "too much", and "mace". :)
<viric>
well, maybe in "mace", it also has the sense of "big mass with a lot of inertia"
<whitequark>
yeah, that's "ground" (meaning "earth ground") and "signal ground".
<viric>
larsc: and earth ground?
<larsc>
'earth'
<viric>
like the planet?
<larsc>
grounded would be 'earthed' if translated literally
<viric>
ok
<larsc>
but ground can be both 'mass' or 'earth', but usually it's mass
<whitequark>
linguistic evenings on #qi-hw :)
<viric>
hehe
<viric>
here, if someone on a circuit mixes the words "earth" and "mass", it sounds quite ridiculous.
<viric>
mixing, in the sense of not using them right
<viric>
well, electronics had its own evolution everywhere, so there go interesting words. :)
<viric>
specially as most ideas come from allegories from other previously known phenomena.
<larsc>
ah, so mass doesn't have to be ground
<larsc>
but usually is
<viric>
For example, in Spanish they use the word хлыст for short ethernet cables.
<viric>
I don't know what can that be in English
<viric>
small whip.
<viric>
larsc: usually mass is earth ground? I wouldn't say so.
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<larsc>
why not?
<viric>
in my region, also, the popular word for computer mouse isn't 'mouse', but 'rat'. крыса. People from other regions find that funny.
<viric>
larsc: there are three cables in your power sockets. Not two. :)
<viric>
if it was usual to join any of them, it would be troublesome.
<larsc>
but that's AC
<viric>
righ.t
<viric>
I don't remember any case where a DC circuit has GND connected to EARTH.
<whitequark>
viric: (rat) in russia too
<whitequark>
though it's somewhat humorous
<larsc>
the german word for mobile phone is Handy, written and pronounced like the english handy
<viric>
here the italian 'telefonino' sounds fun
<whitequark>
larsc: suppose I want to learn german. any advice? :)
<whitequark>
(for fun, and because it's one of the most widespread languages. but mainly for fun)
<biot>
whitequark: zweitenhundenstoffenteufel!
<whitequark>
biot: that's like honey for my ears! :D
<biot>
how is that fun!
<larsc>
whitequark: no. never had to learn it as a second language ;)
<whitequark>
biot: I like how it sounds. A lot.
<larsc>
it's not a real word though
<biot>
it's probably a very useful language to know for when you stub your toe
<whitequark>
larsc: ha. my current best guess is to learn the basics, and then set up de.wikipedia by default instead of en.wikipedia
<biot>
same with russian
<larsc>
whitequark: watch movies in german
<larsc>
or read german novels
<whitequark>
larsc: well, that's what I do with English (movies)
<whitequark>
but the good thing with English is, it's easily to motivate yourself to watch them, because translations are usually really, really horrible
<biot>
I always made my daughter watch movies in english when she was a toddler
<biot>
and when she was older, she only got subtitles on a special occasion
<biot>
as a result, her english is really great now, she really grew up with it
<whitequark>
biot: I'm mostly reading english stuff for about four years at this moment, worked really well too
<whitequark>
you don't have to be a toddler :)
<viric>
one thing that makes english more comfortable is that you know some english
<whitequark>
hm?
<viric>
(watching movies, etc.)
<viric>
I mean it's harder to start something. :) I guess you already knew some english when you were conscious about deciding to learn it
<whitequark>
oh
<whitequark>
yeah, I started it by reading manuals for Borland C++ Builder at... I think 8? 9? something around that
<whitequark>
I've no idea how it is even possible to learn a language that way
<larsc>
english was the on subject in school I almost failed
<larsc>
the one
<larsc>
always a 4 minus minus
<whitequark>
and the "perfect" is... 1?
<larsc>
if you get a 5 you have to repeat a year
<larsc>
yes 1 is the best grade, 6 the worst
<whitequark>
right
<whitequark>
there were anecdoes about grading in russia and germany
<whitequark>
because in russia, 5 is the best and 2 is the worst
<larsc>
I know, it's kind of the reverse
<whitequark>
and 1 is something you'd have to try hard to achieve
<larsc>
so when people from russia come here it's always a bit confusing
<larsc>
to be honest I don't know why there is is 5 and 6 here, if you get either of them you've failed
<whitequark>
and americans have ABCDEF to make things even more confusing
<larsc>
well A is 1, F is 6
<whitequark>
still ambiguous :D
<whitequark>
and I think they have percentage system in Japan. 0-100%
<whitequark>
which probably makes the most sense
<larsc>
but also more complicated
<whitequark>
is it?
<larsc>
so many different numbers
<larsc>
but maybe it is also more fair
<larsc>
there is a fixed mapping between your grade and the percentage you get right on a test
<larsc>
e.g. 1 = >= 90%
<larsc>
so somebody with 90% percent gets a 1 and somebody with 89% a 2
<larsc>
considering that there are only 4 grades for which you pass this means a 2 is only worth 25% of a 1
<larsc>
so e.g. if somebody gets 90%,90%,90% he gets a much better grade then somebody who gets 89%,89%,100%
<whitequark>
isn't it rounded?
<whitequark>
oh, it isn't
<whitequark>
I think I read something about american system where it is rounded
<whitequark>
though that's still unfair: it just shifts the bounds
<larsc>
the final grades are not rounded
<larsc>
you get a plain integer number
<larsc>
so the first person would get a 1, the second a 2
<larsc>
even though on average he scored higher
<larsc>
how do you round in the U.S. though? Do you get a B.F?
<viric>
here 10 is best, 0 is worst
<viric>
no letters. :)
<viric>
often with one decimal place even
<whitequark>
0-9?
<larsc>
speaking of point systems. If you do a traffic violation you here get points, once you have enough you get your drivers license taken away
<larsc>
I've heard that in other countries it is the opposite. You start with a certain amount of points and then get them taken away for each violation
<larsc>
and they say from a phychological point of few such a system is better, because you loose points instead of earning them
<larsc>
point of view
<larsc>
well and psychological
<wpwrak>
that isn't the opposite. the opposite would be that, once you've amassed enough violations, you get the permit ;-)
<wpwrak>
(i think that's how it works around here)
* kristianpaul
'sdriver license have no expiration date
<whitequark>
"driver license" at qi-hw is *really* ambiguous :D
<kristianpaul>
well :)
<larsc>
drivers licenses don't have an expiration date here either
<larsc>
people have sill their old paper licenses from the 60ties
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: if the streets are sufficiently dangerous, expiration is implicit :)
<kristianpaul>
lol
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<larsc>
whitequark: the license is still valid you may not be able exercise your right to drive though
<larsc>
wpwrak:
<kristianpaul>
and here you just pay for the violations, unless is something more serious guess vehicle get confiscate and you go jail
<wpwrak>
larsc: that reminds me of "in russia, everything is forbidden - even if it's allowed"
<kristianpaul>
points will be interesting to check the scores between provinces :p
<larsc>
kristianpaul: you have to always pay a fine here too
<larsc>
but may get some points in addition
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: (penalty) in germany, they tie you behind your cars and drive up and down the street
<wpwrak>
s/cars/car/
<kristianpaul>
but here most people never pay xD
<qi-bot>
wpwrak meant: "kristianpaul: (penalty) in germany, they tie you behind your car and drive up and down the street"
<wpwrak>
wow, qi-bot is really fast :)
<kristianpaul>
even when the disccount arrives at the end of the year and so on
<larsc>
kristianpaul: discount? Pay 10 speeding tickets get one for free?
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: car drivers are danger, i avoid then all day when get to the city
<kristianpaul>
larsc: percent disccount, 50% or even more
<viric>
larsc: we have 10 points at start, in driving license. By not getting punished, they can 'grow' until 12. On punishment, you lose some points.
<larsc>
viric: yea, that sounds like the better scheme
<viric>
there is some black market of points
<viric>
I'm not sure how it works...
<larsc>
here too
<larsc>
you just say you drove the car that day
<viric>
I think that when you get a fine, some people sell their points (claim they were driving) or so
<viric>
aha
<larsc>
e.g. if you cross a red light or something
<larsc>
they usually take photos of the driver and the license plate though
<viric>
also the driver? hm
<larsc>
yea
<larsc>
quality sucks though
<larsc>
so if the person looks kind of like it they'll believe you
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<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: new option -q for quiet capture (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/d1b65cb
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: aggressive polling for wait_for_interrupt, if timeout_ms = -1 (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/07b1da2
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: option -q becomes "quick" and uses aggressive polling (buffer-frames) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/873f80c
<wpwrak>
argh. wrong branch :-(
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c: remove queued_rx; buffer frames in the MCU instead (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/b73d5fc
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c (next_buf): dedicated function for incrementing buffer indices (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/998ac7e
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/lib/: aggressive polling for wait_for_interrupt, if timeout_ms = -1 (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/07b1da2
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: tools/atrf-txrx/atrf-txrx.c: option -q becomes "quick" and uses aggressive polling (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/873f80c
<qi-bot>
[commit] Werner Almesberger: atusb/fw/mac.c (RX_BUFS): increase buffer size from 2 to 3 frames (master) http://qi-hw.com/p/ben-wpan/bf067b3
<wpwrak>
hmm, is anyone here familiar with GUI development on small embedded systems ? the kind that run under contiki or freertos.
<whitequark>
sigh, contiki
<whitequark>
what are you interested in?
<wpwrak>
in the project i'm currently working on, they seem to be looking for someone who'd implement a gui. not entirely sure, though - the question wasn't very clearly phrased.
<whitequark>
oh, so it's more a hiring question
<whitequark>
no idea then.
<wpwrak>
the platform is freertos with a touch of contiki. stm32f32f2 microcontroller. quite reasonable critters, but unfortunately too weak for linux.
<wpwrak>
what gui libraries would you use ?
<whitequark>
haven't seen anything reasonable to be honest. so I would probably reinvent something.
<wpwrak>
the only one i know is mtk nee genode fx
<wpwrak>
heh ;-)
<wpwrak>
maybe i should just tell them to use linux :)
<whitequark>
it's a really small critter and everything I've seen so far was... let's say IC vendor quality
<wpwrak>
(not that i haven't said that a dozen times already :)
<whitequark>
ha
<whitequark>
that'll cost them, no?
<whitequark>
money and power
<wpwrak>
maybe 1-2 USD per device. and they don't seem to be overly concerned with power.
<whitequark>
stm32f2 is somewhere around $5, less if in bulk, and needs no external components except a crystal
<wpwrak>
seems that you can make a pretty decent linux system with an i.MX233, some SPI flash and an SDRAM chip