<nicksydney>
damn it !!!!...still doesn't want to stick !
<nicksydney>
the only successful one (around 60% stick) is the brochure
<wpwrak>
maybe your iron is set too cold ?
<wpwrak>
or maybe you're not ironing long enough
<wpwrak>
or not applying enough pressure. you can pretty much push down as hard as you like..
<wpwrak>
also, what does "doesn't want to stick" mean ? nothing at all ?
<nicksydney>
i meant the toner doesn't want to stick completely on the board :)
<nicksydney>
i set the iron to the ma
<nicksydney>
*max
<nicksydney>
if i still see the toner still stick to the paper does that mean that not enough heat being transferred ?
<nicksydney>
in terms of pressure my feeling is i apply enough pressure but probably need to press bit harder
<wpwrak>
yes, i'd try with a bit more pressure and maybe more time ironing
<wpwrak>
how do you treat the surface of the paper ? do you clean it with alcohol ? or not at all ? you can try reversing whatever you do there
<wpwrak>
(clean with alcohol) wet a bit with alcohol, leave it there for a few seconds, then gently remove the jelly-like stuff from the surface with a paper towel.
<wpwrak>
not all papers have such a surface treatment, but many do
<nicksydney>
for the paper not at all no treatment
<nicksydney>
you mean clean the paper with alcohol before printing or after printing the artwork ?
<nicksydney>
i'm still soaking the board in the water with hot water..let's see if those paper will come off by itself
<wpwrak>
don't soak. the paper really ought to come off dry.
<wpwrak>
if you soak it, you weaken the bonding of the surface, so the paper is more likely to remain
<wpwrak>
i wonder whether the copper is smooth enough. you're using fine steel wool, right ? not the coarse stuff
<wpwrak>
fine = the threads are about as thick as hair; coarse = the "threads" are maybe 0.5-1 mm wide
<wpwrak>
then, you should scrub in an X pattern: left-right until the copper shines, then up-down until you only see up-down grooves, then maybe repeat left-right
<wpwrak>
then clean the board surface with alcohol and paper towel. this is important for removing the steel dust
<nicksydney>
i think the step that i'm missing in cleaning the board is the use of alchohol....i only use water
<wpwrak>
ah no, water is bad. that'll only help the oxides back on board
<wpwrak>
besides, the alcohol will get rid of any lipids
<wpwrak>
that other steel wool, if you pick the copper/bronce version of the same structure, makes an excellent sponge to clean the soldering iron. much more convenient than real sponges since it doesn't need to be wet.
<nicksydney>
the result after peeling off from the board (this is the 2nd attempt) -- http://ctrlv.in/270546
<wpwrak>
(but don't use steel wool - use copper/bronce wool. the steel would damage the tip of the soldering iron)
<wpwrak>
(picture) i'm confused :)
<wpwrak>
what's that yellow-white film stuff ?
<nicksydney>
this is the result on the board (for the 2nd attempt) http://ctrlv.in/270547 .. and this is the result on the paper what is left over of the toner after peeling it off from the board http://ctrlv.in/270546
<nicksydney>
the "yellow-film" stuff is a brochure paper i'm using
<wpwrak>
ah, i see
<wpwrak>
you still have the problem that the paper disintegrates
<wpwrak>
that paper probably doesn't have enough strength. and it probably simply doesn't have enough plastic/jelly on its surface
<wpwrak>
so the toner really likes to stay on the paper
<wpwrak>
please use a glossy "photo" paper for ink printers. once you get that to work, you can always try to find some cheaper paper source. but it's probably not worth the effort.
<nicksydney>
this is the original brochure paper i used for the 2nd attempt http://ctrlv.in/270549
<wpwrak>
ah, i see. don't know how these are made. the chemistry may be quite different from "photo" paper
<nicksydney>
looks like i need to revisit (1) the way the copper is being clean and (2) just use photo paper ... what you think ?
<wpwrak>
btw, there's yet another choice: if you can't find any photo paper with enough plastic on it, you can try the plastified paper on which adhesive stickers come
<nicksydney>
(1) for cleaning the copper .. will need to find the steel wool you showed in that link and also will need alcohol...in terms of cleaning the board...i just use alchohol to clean it OR clean it first with water and than apply alcohol >
<wpwrak>
a few warnings about that, though: a) you need to clean it very well or you'll drag glue into your printer causing an early retirement of at least the transfer drum, and b) you need to work at a lower temperature with this sort of paper
<nicksydney>
"lower temp with this sort of paper"...you mean the photo paper ?
<wpwrak>
(cleaning) just alcohol: 1) scrub it nice and shiny with the steel wool, then 2) put a bit of alcohol on it, wet a paper town with alcohol, then rub off the steel dust (you can apply a good amount of pressure). you'll see that the paper towel comes back black.
<wpwrak>
(lower temp) subtrate for adhesives. the "plan B" approach
<wpwrak>
but it's better if you can get "photo" paper to work. that's more robust. the adhesives stuff is also very sensitive to pressure and such. so it smears easily. you can get it to work but it takes some effort.
<wpwrak>
it's basically the exact opposite of your not-to-cooperative brochure. but of course, if failure lurks at one extreme, that doens't mean that the other extreme is any friendlier :)
<wpwrak>
it gives off particles that will eventually produce visible artefacts on the printer's drum but the transfer is very clean. and no problems at all with paper disintegrating.
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<wpwrak>
(alcohol) looks decent enough. they don't even mention the concentration so maybe it's actually pure :)
<nicksydney>
(alchohol) will buy that later today and also the steel wool and will try again with the HP photo paper again
<wpwrak>
its main weakness are large surfaces. there, it sometimes leaves holes. but then you can just cover them up with a permanent marker. or ignore the imperfection.
<wpwrak>
well, i wash the board afterwards. with tap water, rubbing it with a thumb. that way, any plastic residues that may get in the way of the acid come off. else you can have some small copper spots.
<wpwrak>
250 sounds good. that means that they have enough space to make it nice
<nicksydney>
i was wondering you know with this one http://ctrlv.in/270531 what will happen if the paper is not removed completely and then etch it ?
<wpwrak>
the acid will politely refrain from touching the areas it's being blocked from
<nicksydney>
i see....because it looks like it sticks to the copper but the paper "refuses" to let it go
<wpwrak>
maybe a little bit will make it under the paper but its effect will be greatly reduced
<wpwrak>
well, unless you make a REALLY aggressive mix. if you make the acid bad enough, then it'll just eat through anything in its way. be that paper, pieces of nick, or whatever :)
<wpwrak>
yup, that's what it looks like. most likely the thin plastic surface coating, not the paper itself. so that's a very efficient acid barrier.
<nicksydney>
from all the paper i've tried that one i notice was the most successful one....but it's so annoying that i can't get rid of the left over paper
<nicksydney>
http://ctrlv.in/270531 --> in this one you notice the top and bottom part i strip off the paper and the whole toner came off with it
<wpwrak>
naw, that doesn't look very successful. exactly because of that problem
<wpwrak>
don't be fooled by the nice print you can see through the paper. that's toner on paper, not toner on copper.
<nicksydney>
ahh ok...thought that the toner has "stick" to the copper but the paper refuses to do it
<wpwrak>
all the places where you were able to remove the paper say otherwise :)
<wpwrak>
well, except the about 2 x 2 mm lower right corner. these three vias and their traces look quite nice ;)
<nicksydney>
will try again later .. need to go out after this and drop by to buy the alcohol and steel wolll
<nicksydney>
so i lay a brochure paper and put clear tape on top of that and than print on it ..and after ironing the board i peel it off i can see that is sticks better to the board
<wpwrak>
;-)
<nicksydney>
but it was not 100%..it was around 70-75% successful on the board
<wpwrak>
well, that's one way of getting plastic ...
<wpwrak>
yes, that could work if you refine the process sufficiently
<nicksydney>
do you think the paper that is used for laying the plastic tape on really matter when it comes to ironing it to the board ?
<nicksydney>
will try that again once i clean the board properly and see if it will work
<wpwrak>
(paper used for laying the plastic tape on) you mean if you print on adhesive tape instead of on photo paper ? well, it would still have to make a firm connection with the adhesive tape. but else, it would be removed from the equation.
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<larsc_>
apelete: yep, unfortunatelly something went wrong when the patches were submitted originally and the patch removing the old custom API was merged before the audio driver was updated.
<larsc_>
apelete: how about adding your usb patches to the qi kernel tree?
<apelete>
larsc_: was thinking about it yesterday. is it okay if I push them to jz-3.12 branch ?
<larsc_>
I think we can also revert the old driver
<larsc_>
But this is really awesome, since this was one of the last major missing pieces to finally have full upstream support for the nanonote
<apelete>
larsc_: hmm, old driver is already disabled in the code, maybe we can wait that the musb glue layer is merged upstream before removing it completely
<apelete>
what do you think ?
<larsc_>
I'd just remove it
<larsc_>
but whatever you think is better
<larsc_>
We may use the old driver to figure out how to get dma working
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<apelete>
larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure how some things like dma may work
<apelete>
s/figure/figure out/
<qi-bot>
apelete meant: "larsc_: yes, that's what I was thinking: keep it for now in case we need it later to figure out how some things like dma may work"
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak: will "resume" the adventure lunch time ;)
<wpwrak>
oh, right, it's already monday over there :)
<wpwrak>
the alcohol looks good
<wpwrak>
(gee, that's an easy thing to say :)
<nicksydney>
to ease the frustation pain i'm having with this task i have to make sure that I can make myself happy by saying thing that I think is not possible on paper :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: yesterday you said that creating library (or was it a module) a pain in Kicad...found something that can ease the pain perhaps https://github.com/AdharLabs/Kicad-tools ? :)
<wpwrak>
modules are a pain. but i already have a tool for that, fped (even wrote it myself :)
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<wpwrak>
fped is a 2D parametric CAD. so it's not just a "wizard" that knows a few typical patterns.
<nicksydney>
ah yeah forgot that you mention that before :)