<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: http://www.almesberger.net/misc/clouds-20131228.jpg tells me that there must be a number of mountains some 10..100km from you, and the wind is blowing from that mountain towards your location. And I *guess* those mountains are ~30° left from the direction of your snapshot main direction
<wpwrak>
hmm, you may drown in the atlantic while searching for these mountains ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
if the above is correct then I also can conclude that you probably have a weather tight now that's too warm and dry compared to average
<wpwrak>
ah, left .. that would actually be land
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the direction is a real guess
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the mountains could as well be 180° opposite direction, but the clouds suggest they are either in front and left or behind and right of that photo
<wpwrak>
(30 deg left) in that direction, there's for the next ~200 km the delta of the rio de la plata
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless that's all weird symmetrical atrifacts created by a lot of airplanes
<wpwrak>
180 deg ... that would be the coast or the atlantic ;-)
<wpwrak>
now, mountains ... how tall ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
those parallel cloud stripes are usually waves created by wind "jumping" over a mountain or cliff or sth
<DocScrutinizer05>
how high? a few hundred meters could already suffice
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically what you see as clouds are the turbulences created by that obstacle
<wpwrak>
hmm, 100 m or so may actually be possible. don't forget that buenos aires is on the edge of the pampa. it's very very flat out there :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you see those small parallel stripes
<wpwrak>
but your idea may still be right, just different barriers
<wpwrak>
we have: ocean vs. (big) river delta; water vs. land; open land vs. (large) city
<DocScrutinizer05>
get a meteosat cloud photo
<DocScrutinizer05>
should show where the turbulence starts
<wpwrak>
the metropolitan area of buenos aires is some 30-40 x ~20 km, so it certainly affects the air patterns
<wpwrak>
ah yes, that would have been an idea
<wpwrak>
now i can't see anything :-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite possible
<wpwrak>
hmm, looks like something forming over the atlantic. more front than circle
<wpwrak>
hmm, the big waves aren't so much what i was wondering about. more the small spots.
<wpwrak>
the waves are probably air being pushed up by the warmth of the city
<wpwrak>
the smoke have come from fires (of tires and such) people made in the street, as a form of protest against the power cuts. some have been without electricity and all that entails for ten days by now.
<wpwrak>
a rather delightful argentine custom is to protest against the powers that be by making the lives of your neighbours miserable
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak: got the HCL now reading up on how to etch it
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: still bit unsure about the amount to add for H2O2 and HCL
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<wpwrak>
nicksydney: about twice as much H2O2 as HCl. and don't make too much acid - it just needs to be high enough for the PCB to completely submerge. if your container has a nice flat bottom and it reasonably small, that will be just a few ml.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
or you use a conveniently fitting-in-size and tighly seal'able plastic bag
<DocScrutinizer05>
of course you want to worl with this setup only over a sink like shower/bathtub, wearing rubber gloves and goggles
<DocScrutinizer05>
otherwise it's quite convenient for the small amount of etch liquid you need, as well as for "stirring" the whole thing
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/worl/work/
<DocScrutinizer05>
probably it's even a good idea to fill the bathtub/shower tub wit a 100mm high of water, so no spilled etch liquid gets in direct contact to the tub
<ysionneau>
sometimes I feel like I'm on #chemistry
<ysionneau>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
using hot water even makes for a convenient way to warm up the etch bag floating in it
<DocScrutinizer05>
make that 50mm, should suffice
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even 15mm if you're stingy with water
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then it cools down rather quickly
<DocScrutinizer05>
you get the idea
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: managed to etch anelok today...here are some photos
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<wpwrak>
(bathtub) interesting idea
<wpwrak>
but if you work work reasonably convenient containers the spill risk is basically zero
<wpwrak>
plus, you can seal them after use so you get to keep your acid
<nicksydney>
tested with 2 dummy board before i etch anelok and now the H2O2 is almost finished :)...but still lots of HCL
<nicksydney>
boy the HCL is strong stuff i pour probably 5-10ml and i can see bubbles forming straight away and eating away on the copper
<nicksydney>
i used latex gloves as it's my first time was worried about spilling it to my hand..and most of the time i keep distance from myself when opening the HCL or H2O2 :)
<nicksydney>
what you think of the etch result ?
<wpwrak>
the picture is loading ...
<wpwrak>
do you have a continuity tester ? (multimeter or such) in general the board looks pretty neat. but some traces look suspicious. could be broken.
<wpwrak>
(gloves) yes, definitely a good idea. i always wear gloves with working with that sort of stuff.
<wpwrak>
the board material is FR2 (pertinax) ? the color suggests it is. that would be a very poor quality material (easily develops mechanical problems). with FR4 (epoxy) you get much better results.
<nicksydney>
(tester)...just used multimeter and most of the traces does connect
<nicksydney>
let me check what is the board..it is a single sided board
<nicksydney>
it says "FR4 Copper Clad Circuit Board Single Side PCB."
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<wpwrak>
okay, if it's FR4 then that's good. they picked a strange color for it.
<nicksydney>
how can you tell between FR4 and FR2 ?
<nicksydney>
i was reading about Hydrogen Peroxide and i read that H2O2 is a bleach .. so does this mean that normal household bleach can be used with HCL ?
<wpwrak>
you can tell by cutting into it with a dremel. the dust tastes different. but it's kinda hard to describe :-)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: ohh don't tell me i have to taste the dust...yuck :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: (the dust tastes different) hahahaha
<wpwrak>
(bleach) i wouldn't try mixing unknown chemicals with a potent acid :) also, many bleaches are chlorine-based, so that's a different process. the peroxide acts as oxidizer.
<wpwrak>
(dust) well, as you cut into the board, the dust finds its way into your respiratory system kinda on its own :)
<whitequark>
*nod* it's just the sort of thing a seasoned engineer would tell a newbie one almost like a joke
<whitequark>
the image of you telling that to someone with a completely serious face cracks me up
<nicksydney>
tomorrow will do the bottom part and will try to solder some parts that i've got
<wpwrak>
;-))
<nicksydney>
not sure what i have but hopefully the OLED that i've stocked up does fit .. didn't get a chance to check the stock taht i have :)
<nicksydney>
the thrilled of having your first PCB etched is undescribeable !
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: let me check with DMM for those traces
<wpwrak>
could of course be just be harmless discoloration. your picture it quite blurry, so it's hard to tell
<wpwrak>
(thrill) hehe ;-)) and it's even a fairly complex one
<nicksydney>
(traces) all those ones that you marked does connect ... it looks bit thinner than other traces though
<nicksydney>
would it be better if i apply solder to all the copper traces like how you did yours ?
<wpwrak>
yes, applying solder is a good idea. that way, the copper is protected from corrosion
<nicksydney>
ok cool...so lots of flux and solder ?
<wpwrak>
yes, heat the iron well (you want 300 C, maybe a bit more). apply flux generously, then put a few small drops of solder on the PCB.
<wpwrak>
then distribute the solder with the side of the tip of the iron (to you move it parallel to the board)
<wpwrak>
what you want is a very very thin coating. as thin as you can get.
<wpwrak>
risks: if you stay too long in an area or the iron "catches" on a trace and you're a bit too rough, you may shear traces off the board. that sort of damage is often fatal for the board. but since this is a test board anyway, you can experiment without fear
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: will give it a go and see how it goes...ok time for me to hit the bed...and thanks for the tip...see you tomorrow
<wpwrak>
another risk: of you get too much solder in one spot if can be hard to get rid of it again. a thick coat will make it hard to solder components since they will be on that "hill" and it'll be hard to hold them in place
<wpwrak>
sweet dreams of copper oxidizing while you sleep :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: is your design meant to show mirrored writing on the PCB?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, reading mirrored writing is so natural to me that sometimes I don't even notice, or like here just think it's mirrored when in fact it isn't, or the other way round
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the indentation and huge CC-BY-CA vs small anelok plus the kinda weird fontset tricked my brain
<DocScrutinizer05>
suǝddɐɥ ʇı̣ɥs
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'd anyway prefer scans of the PCB to those photos
<DocScrutinizer05>
they are almost as poor quality as mine usually are ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite brave to try and spot bad traces in them
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/them/it, since only one picture works
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "quite brave to try and spot bad traces in it, since only one picture works "
<wpwrak>
i was about to suggest that nick get himself a decent camera :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, it's just a random arbitrary number, not really relevant for the project
<DocScrutinizer05>
just feels comfy for digital minds
<DocScrutinizer05>
the procedure with using a plastic bag for etching has the major advantage of needing exceptionally small amounts of etching liquid, particularly due to good coverage and "stirring"
<DocScrutinizer05>
you howeve must make sure to not "cover" parts of the PCB by plastic bag touching PCB surface
<DocScrutinizer05>
constant pushing around the liquid in the bag however reliably avoids this as well as some other problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
almost as good as a vertical cuvette with bubble stirring
<DocScrutinizer05>
^^^ "Ätzmittel" has a decent explanation about how hydrochloric acis + H2O2 works and how to mix the etching liquid
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly: >>Sollten übermässig Bläschen aufsteigen, deutet dies auf einen H2O2-Überschuss hin, der zum Abbruch des Prozesses führt und der durch Hinzufügen von verdünnter Salzsäure wieder in Gang gebracht werden kann.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
that been a pretty short browout?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or did you miss more than ~30s
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually here it looks like 10s
<wpwrak_>
yeah. UPS said "beep !", PC went down, fluke reset (this one is always the most fragile item)
<wpwrak_>
my internet gateway pc made it through it without reset. else i have to wait about an hours before it's willing to power on again.
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Reichelt etching stuff looks pretty convenient, also for "spare" parts
<wpwrak_>
looks a bit over-engineered
<wpwrak_>
etching isn't the difficult part of making pcbs :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
cuvette small + tap
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually no, it not the difficult part. But getting it right is significantly more demanding than just etching away 50% of your structures
<DocScrutinizer05>
rule of thumb: the faster your etching, the more you damage the fine traces
<wpwrak_>
sure. but it's essentially the step that always works, even if you're sloppy. well, at least with a bit of routine and the right acid.
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<wpwrak_>
and yes, high-speed etching doesn't work ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nevertheless I just ponder whether using electrolitic techniques might give you some benefits in that step. E.G. tiny holes/cracks in the resist (whatever toner or photopositive) would maybe get sealed by gas that can't escape
<wpwrak_>
i actually have one that was even worse. a large but simple board with thick traces. there, the acid started to boil :)
<wpwrak_>
tiny cracks seem to slow down the acid enough that it can't make it through the trace. what you get then are these discolored spots. so for the average DIY board, that's still quite okay
<DocScrutinizer05>
obviously you had to do the last few µm of etching in a non-electrolytic way anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
since eventually you get isolated isles which is the whole purpose of the process
<DocScrutinizer05>
but yeah, that would stop etchin for those traces that are already isolated from the gdn fill pattern
<DocScrutinizer05>
gdn
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn! Ground
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you could etch away for good all exposed and connected to GND-fill copper, and 10min after last such copper connected to the GND-fill got electrolytically removed, you can stop the process and start chemical etching of the remnants
<DocScrutinizer05>
which should finish pretty fast then, without endangering your fine traces
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<wpwrak_>
phew. more over-engineering ;-) just acid and a little flat-bottomed glass container works fine. no need to invent solutions for problems that don't exist :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
pah, what a curious spirit is TAHT?
<DocScrutinizer05>
whole world is just a collection of problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
with this mindset you would eat your beef raw, since what's the problem that makes you discover fire as a useful tool
<wpwrak_>
grmbl. the anelok board is acting more and more unpredictably :-(
<wpwrak_>
now i have a mystery resistance across the battery contacts of ~90 Ohm. when SW2 is off and R9 is absent ! that would mean a drain-to-gate flow through Q1. that's physically impossible, isn't it ?
<larsc>
depends on how well the isolation works
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<wpwrak_>
90 Ohm ? from drain to gate ?
<larsc>
probably not
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<nicksydney>
morning....it's a beautiful day....2 days before 2014 :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: can you give me suggestion what is the best way to work with anelok now that i have top and bottom part on separate board ? ... what's the best way to try it out ?
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: looking at neo900 donation chart...perhaps need more PR noise to attract attention ?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: but I never heard about the official fix though
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites
<dos1>
Samsung published fix that was patching RAM at each emmc init
<DocScrutinizer05>
dos1: HEHEHE indeed
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: that reply wasn't for me
<dos1>
after patching it was reading it back to confirm that it went ok
<dos1>
so this Oranav guy REd reading it to dump whole firmware
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: sorry?
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: maybe get Google's attention :)
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: 21:52 < DocScrutinizer05> whitequark: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: aah
<dos1>
they patched out one function call to point to new function, which was just calling the old one, checking its return value and if it's 0, then it goes into infinite loop
<DocScrutinizer05>
nicksydney: we deliberately and thoughtfully decided _not_ to go with those crowdfunding sites
<dos1>
so eMMC on Samsung Galaxy Note II is now definitely user upgradable
<whitequark>
oh, that's Note II. I was talking about SGSIII (IIRC)
<dos1>
hmm
<whitequark>
it's likely they have the same bug though
<dos1>
Samsung Galaxy Note II GT-N7100, N7105 > Galaxy Note II, Galaxy S III Developer Discussion [Developers Only] > eMMC sudden death research
<whitequark>
quick google query confirms sgs3 suffers from same issue
<dos1>
yep
<dos1>
I just copied name from the begining of forum name, haven't noticed the later part :D
<dos1>
and I'm not really up to date with all those android devices
<dos1>
my interest faded away somewhere around HTC Dream :P
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: (board) two separate boards are nearly useless :) you could try to make them overlap and tie them together with vias, but i have no idea how well that would work :)
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: in any case, i'd recommend making a custom design for your experiments. don't try to make an anelok clone but something simpler. the anelok design will change anyway, so there's little value in making a clone
<wpwrak_>
(sandwich press) no idea :) i would suspect it to be too uneven (since your sandwiches don't care about whether they're off by 0.1 mm somewhere) and maybe it wouldn't even close completely. but maybe you could get it to work by putting the pcb on a piece of wood or such. dunno.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: looks like need to "stretch" anelok into 1 layer and work from there
<wpwrak_>
or enter the beautiful new world of making double-sided pcbs :)
<wpwrak_>
btw, your photos tend to be quite blurry. smartphone cams usually aren't so good at these things. DocScrutinizer05 and i recently had a discussion about that.
<whitequark>
sandwich press? laminators are usually thought to be ideal for the task
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: will take some picture and post it
<wpwrak_>
if you plan on making photos of such things often and still have some favours left from santa, you may want to look for one of the "upper middle class" canon cameras. e.g., the ELPH 330 HS aka IXUS 255 HS may be fairly good (macro range is as short as 1 cm) and isn't very expensive.
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: need to borrow wife's 100D :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: favors from Santa is gone...all that is left are pocket changes for parts :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, just started wondering as well
<dos1>
DocScrutinizer05: that's java plugin
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, maybe I should disable java
<DocScrutinizer05>
but doesn't seem like this was the culprit
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: 100D ... okay, that's a decent enough piece of equipment ;-)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: so need to be nice to here otherwise only phone cam i have :)
<wpwrak_>
you may already taxing her patience with all the chemicals you're bringing home lately. these things tend to have a really low WAF ;-) (Woman Acceptance Factor)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: yeah...that's why need to be very very nice
<whitequark>
guess why wpwrak_ is single :p
<nicksydney>
whitequark: it's a tough job being a husband ..hahaha
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2013-12-29 23:11:19] <wpwrak_> whitequark: yes, that's also what i use. and the only thing besides manual ironing i saw mentioned. but it guess there's always something more to explore, somewhere out there :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, what a opposite take than regarding thinking about new ways to etch stuff
<whitequark>
I knew you would be quick to notice that
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: indeed. and i hide the nasty bit (preferably in friendly-looking colorful boxes) when women are visiting :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: an alternative approach, safer for your life, is to use that as a selection process
<whitequark>
why would I want to talk to people scared by the mere sight of HCl?
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: i just think that if it worked great, someone may have mentioned it. a sandwich iron (well, if that kind of device exists in your area) should be easier to put to use than first modding a laminator
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: because those that go "oh cool, lemme have a sip !" usually aren't around to talk to ? :)
<wpwrak_>
(cheers) naw, that's just a friendly exaggeration ;-)
<wpwrak_>
it was a bit of a rush job, though, because the neo900 folks broke their barrier a bit too quick for my freezer to cool the glass properly
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: modding a laminator? no modding required, they work out of the box
<whitequark>
the rolls (or how are they called) are flexible enough to accomodate for a typical pcb thickness... 1-1.2mm for sure
<whitequark>
or elastic enough. they're covered in some kind of heat-resistant rubber.
<nicksydney>
one thing i can say that i've tried and nobody has tried before is using the 'butt' of a hot teflon ... it works slightly worse than iron :)
<whitequark>
a cast iron one would probably work better. more stable t° and convenient pressure
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: is that some sort of pagan dance?
<wpwrak_>
(the building in the background is the one with the "barrel" roof)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: seems like people having fun near the fire thre ?
<wpwrak_>
naw, people who have been without electricity and possible without water (because of no power = no pumps) for the last 2-10 days. they think it's a good idea to block streets, burn tires, and such.
<whitequark>
let's overthrow the government, sure that would bring more order in our lives
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<wpwrak_>
whitequark: (laminator) a few do. most don't. one common issue is that there's not enough heat transfer. so you have to either slow the motor or (for the adventurous) increase the heat. another issue is that sometimes there are obstacles in the paper path that won't let a pcb through.
<wpwrak_>
(cast iron) yeah, more thermal capacity. also, less likely to bend from use. some pans do get a little out of shape with time.
<whitequark>
more likely to cause permanent brain damage, though
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: oh, i'm sure it would. argentina did this in 2001 and after a week of chaos, things calmed down and then the "emergency president" (just for one year) fixed a lot of things
<wpwrak_>
alas, the guy he placed as his successsor (still democratically elected) did not quite so well, and when (after 4 years) he was succeeded by his wife, things really went downhill
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: then why aren't you on the street? :p
<whitequark>
you guys should have a revolution every two years or so. keep those fuckers in check.
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: waiting for more useful protests :) i did go to the ones protesting against the government corrupting the institutions
<whitequark>
nice
<wpwrak_>
well, one every 6 years or so may be sufficient
<whitequark>
I wonder what would actually happen if the protests here were a little more successful
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: the left side is the demo from above. the right side is when the unions called for a strike against the government. there you can also see the size of that street.
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: all that was last year. this year there were mid-term elections, where the government technically did well (gained some seats) but fell short of its expectations (among other things, they hoped to have a 2/3 majority so that they could change the constitution to their likin)