<wpwrak_>
hehe. too bad the bird didn't take off. it's fun to watch them fly after a good drink :)
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<whitequark>
wpwrak_: how would you know?
<wpwrak_>
once upon a time, when i was still a student, when a party came to an end at sunrise, we went to sit outside. one guy had a bottle of whisky. someone had some bread. the two were quickly combined and offered to the birds who showed considerable interest. afterwards, their flight pattern was a bit "wavy".
<wpwrak_>
i thnk it was mainly sparrows, so a few pieces of alcohol-soaked bread already have an effect
<wpwrak_>
anyway, time to begin preparing my den for tomorrow's party
<whitequark>
"wavy", heh
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<kyak>
students that 1) drink whisky 2) share whisky with birds. What were you, millionaires? :)
<whitequark>
switzerland
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<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: the new copper board + the blue paper pays off completely !
<DocScrutinizer05>
though seems 1.0*1.0*0.25mm is 'smaller' http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Lumex PDFs/SML-LX0404SIUPGUSB.pdf
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<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: whoo ! santa claus brought you a nice board !
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: (form factor) sure. but also keep in mind sourcing. e.g., the one you showed is "Quantity Available: 0". especially if you need a every specific form factor, things get hairy very quickly
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: but yes, if you can find something more convenient and with a few sources that exist in real life, why not
<wpwrak_>
btw, about LEDs: one little detail is that some have just two pads while others have one pad extend a bit into the middle. so if you try to run a trace across the LED, you may find some surprises
<DocScrutinizer05>
0.08mm .oO(?!!?#@@#*§$@)
<DocScrutinizer05>
2350mCd
<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF?!
<wpwrak_>
the technical term for this is "typo" :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, check it!
<wpwrak_>
digi-key has lot of little errors. and others do, too. e.g., farnell thinks they have PCBs with a thickness of something like 30 um ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
is Cd teh brightness when you look at the bright spot, or the photon flux?
<whitequark>
they put those blue LEDs in appliances which light up your room rather bright at night
<DocScrutinizer05>
for the former the 0.08mm easily make for en intense but tiny bright spot at the source
<whitequark>
so I won't be surprised
<whitequark>
also whoever came up with that brilliant idea should have his eyelids cut and superbright blue LEDs glued directly to corneas
<wpwrak_>
mcd goes up as the angle goes down. so you always need to check the two
<DocScrutinizer05>
the Cd values are consistent in datasheet min max avrg and digikey
<wpwrak_>
but you realize that it's not 0.08 mm ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it isn't?
<wpwrak_>
of course not. 0.8 mm. see the data sheet.
<wpwrak_>
and also no stock, "call for price", and so on. this is just trouble.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, seen the (CALL)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
not considering to get it
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<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: the large surfaces are amazing. very neat. you have a few broken traces, though. that may be uneven ironing. so maybe you can improve that. these' get a very fine permanent marker and draw the missing bits. the permanent marker will act as a (weak) etch resist, too
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: you also have some blurring in the lower right quadrant. that's caused by too much ironing. but it's not too bad. you can just scrape off the toner between traces with a sharp knife
<wpwrak_>
also, if you overlook such small problems, you can fix them later by cutting through copper, by bridging small cracks with solder, and by adding wires to bridge larger gaps
<wpwrak_>
but the further you get in the process, the harder it is to fix things
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: I'd wait for it to etch... seen etchant eating/seeping through toner much more than once
<whitequark>
which I guess makes sense, but even more hassle
<wpwrak_>
or is it the radioactive acid ? :)
<whitequark>
not just russian... see above
<wpwrak_>
naw, that's over-engineering
<whitequark>
I'd say the process has far too many variables to be reliably reproduced :p
<whitequark>
btw I bought that press-n-peel stuff, but it'll take a while for it to arrive here
<whitequark>
holidays and stuff
<wpwrak_>
yeah. just make sure your basic process is reasonable. fix the glitches. i don't usually get 100% perfect boards but it's generally not a big deal to fix the few small issues (mainly fissures in the toner that lead to broken traces)
<wpwrak_>
what's important is to check the traces before soldering component. nothing like having some bit chip or connectors sitting on a broken trace ...
<wpwrak_>
or, better, a shorted trace
<wpwrak_>
and for etching, one important part is to get an acid that actually works. something that takes an hour before it even notices the copper is almost guaranteed to creep into the weirdest places
<wpwrak_>
of course don't use 30% HCl + 30% H2O2 either :) (super-fast. etches a board clean in something like ten or twenty seconds. the acid starts to boil in the process. has a certain tendency of overlooking toner. so you get something that still resembles the original layout but won't be of any use.)
<whitequark>
my FeCl3 solutions took about 20-30 minutes, my (NH4)2S2O8 solutions took about 10 minutes to etch
<whitequark>
still creeps around toner
<whitequark>
to significantly varying extent
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<wpwrak_>
FeCl3 is just dirty
<wpwrak_>
dunno the other
<wpwrak_>
do you need to heat the ammonium ?
<whitequark>
naw, it's supposed to work well at room t°
<wpwrak_>
good. that's another nasty bit of FeCl3
<whitequark>
oh right, I didn't heat it, since I didn't really have appropriate equipment for it
<whitequark>
that explains why ammonium results were better and why FeCl3 results were bad...
<wpwrak_>
i wonder what kind of pervert ever thought of using FeCl3 in the first place. it basically has all the characteristics that may it as painful as possible to use.
<wpwrak_>
3s/may/make/
<whitequark>
well, it's the most well-known and used etchant in russia
<wpwrak_>
yes, but why ? it just sucks
<whitequark>
maybe that's the reason :]
<whitequark>
you should feel the most pain possible no matter what you do
<wpwrak_>
doesn't work at room temperature, it stains, it barely transparent when new and fills up with black sludge in use, making it opaque, it's slow, disposal is a mess, and so on
<whitequark>
disposal? just pour it down the toilet
<wpwrak_>
yeah :) if you didn't have to suffer it doesn't count :)
<wpwrak_>
ok, russia ;-)
<whitequark>
oh, would it dissolve your pipes?
<wpwrak_>
depends on whether it can get trapped somewhere. but i was more thinking of toxidity.
<wpwrak_>
and of course, since it stains everything, your toilet may get a little harder to clean if you do tht regularly
<whitequark>
(toxicity & co) I don't think whatever amount of hobbyists purging their FeCl3 down the drain are going to produce any observable effects
<whitequark>
except maybe very locally, if they have that kind of sewage disposal
<whitequark>
Fe cations aren't exactly rare in nature either way, there's whole rivers full of that
<wpwrak_>
yeah, chances are it pales in comparison to whatever the factories in your area pump out
<whitequark>
that too
<whitequark>
I could understand if it was Cd or Hg or something worse, though I doubt that would be really that bad either
<whitequark>
Fe? *shrug*
<wpwrak_>
Cu
<wpwrak_>
fish really seem to hate it
<whitequark>
mhm, yes. but the amounts are still tiny. it's visible when done on scale
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<whitequark>
I find it rather ironic that Chromebooks from the oh-so-evil Google in near future will probably be one of the safest and most open pieces of hardware
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<whitequark>
"And he's just getting warmed up, if that's the right phrase to use for something that detonates things at -180C (that's -300 Fahrenheit, if you only have a kitchen thermometer). The great majority of Streng's reactions have surely never been run again. The paper goes on to react FOOF with everything else you wouldn't react it with: ammonia ("vigorous", this at 100K), water ice (explosion, natch), chlorine ("violent explosion", so he added i
<whitequark>
t more slowly the second time), red phosphorus (not good), bromine fluoride, chlorine trifluoride (say what?), perchloryl fluoride (!), tetrafluorohydrazine (how on Earth. . .), and on, and on. If the paper weren't laid out in complete grammatical sentences and published in JACS, you'd swear it was the work of a violent lunatic."
<wpwrak_>
the most remarkable thing is that he lived to write about his experiments
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<DocScrutinizer05>
gives me a laugh :-D
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<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak_: indeed
<DocScrutinizer05>
tetrafluorohydrazine WTF?!
<whitequark>
chlorine trifluoride: "It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water-with which it reacts explosively."
<whitequark>
and he mixed it with FOOF.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Tetrafluorohydrazine is used as a high-energy liquid oxidizer in some never flown rocket fuel formulas.<<
<wpwrak_>
never flown ... not even as shrapnel ?
* whitequark
is reading MSDS for ClF3
<whitequark>
"However, the dry ice bath embrittled the steel container wall, which split while it was being maneuvered onto a dolly, instantaneously releasing 907 kg (2,000 lb) of cold ClF3 liquid onto the building floor.
<DocScrutinizer05>
this guy should stop injecting this mix of testosterone and angel dust and speed
<whitequark>
that must have been fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
wow, the criticality events of chemical labs
<whitequark>
"One eyewitness described the incident by stating, “The concrete was on fire!”
<DocScrutinizer05>
reading such story I'm ahppy about our container station moved away from vicinity of my house
<wpwrak_>
if already find it sufficiently encouraging if something explosively reacts with water ice.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah
<DocScrutinizer05>
nicwe
<DocScrutinizer05>
nice even
<wpwrak_>
i mean the fire police already has a hard enough time with metal fires, and there's it's merey the heat splitting the water (causing hydrogen explosions)
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: talking about metal fires, there's this further thing about ClF3
<DocScrutinizer05>
they should check if it could get used for laser just like H2+F2
<whitequark>
normally it passivates a metal, but if you scratch it... yeah, the layer doesn't form quickly enough
<whitequark>
so you have to deal with a metal fire in addition to whatever else is it burning through
<whitequark>
basically, everything will be on fire
<DocScrutinizer05>
real fun
<DocScrutinizer05>
o.O
<whitequark>
LC50: 299 ppm for 1 hour rat (death due to respiratory
<whitequark>
wpwrak_: that's in german and uncopyable. a summary?
<wpwrak_>
DocScrutinizer05: note especially: 1) the first call to the firefighters. 2) how the amount of equipment deployed upon that call corresponds to what was reported. 3) how all that relates to the what they had there in the end.
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: an ICE (german high-speed train) locomotive started to smoke. so they called the fire police to inspect it. they said it's just smoke, no fire.
<whitequark>
huh?!
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: fire police dispatched some five cars and 14 men. they found there was a little fire. so they tried to extinguish it ...
<wpwrak_>
whitequark: some five hours later, and with pretty much every firefighter of the wider area at the scene (including specialized industrial units, i think), they finally had the fire under control. it still flared up for two hours or so.
<wpwrak_>
basically anything they threw at it just dissolved, had no effect, or even fueled the fire
<whitequark>
what exactly was on fire there?
<wpwrak_>
ah yes, in the end a total of 55 men were deployed. don't know how many more cars. at least one special unit.
<wpwrak_>
it was a short-circuit that started it. not sure what burnt first. there must be some things that don't take much. then there are large transformers with oil. and then the metals.
<wpwrak_>
e.g., aluminium will burn if the fire is just hot enough
<nicksydney>
merry christmas to all
<nicksydney>
well it's christmas morning here by the way .. 1.30am :)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: last time you were telling me about etching using acid and something can't remember what it was
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: can you refresh my memory
<nicksydney>
wpwrak_: oh by the way before i start etching will buy some sharpies...but seems like i will need a thin sharpie for the broken traces
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<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: merry x-mess ! ;-)
<wpwrak_>
nicksydney: muriatic acid and peroxide. cheap, easy to obtain (except when you're in russia), nice to handle (just make sure you have good ventilation, window or work outside. the chloride gas, while not harmful in that concentration can still do damage to metals if you give it enough time)
<wpwrak_>
(sharpies) yup. get the finest you can find. you can draw lines thinner than the tip width by not fully touching the board but it's a bit difficult. so a fine tip helps.
<nicksydney>
another $10 need to be spent tomorrow :)
<wpwrak_>
3% .. yeah, that'll do. if you can get something a little stronger, even better
<nicksydney>
ok last in our discussion i was still not sure about "mixing is about two parts 3-5% peroxide and one part HCl"
<wpwrak_>
a mix with 3% peroxide is relatively slow and can't be reused much
<wpwrak_>
that's the mix you use to begin. afterwards, you can reuse the acid for a very very long time (months if not years)
<nicksydney>
so say for example i use the measurement using the lid of this bottle http://www.chemistwarehouse.com.au/product.asp?id=5439 .. so if i want to measure that way and if i use 2 lid measurement of peroxide..how many lid measurement of the acid i must mix in ?
<wpwrak_>
the chemistry changes and you get a cupric acid. you need to "boost" that acid with oxygen (peroxide) and chloride (muriatic acid). so when the acid gets weak, you add some of these and it'll be strong again.
<wpwrak_>
not, the issue is that, the more you add, the more water gets into the mix. at some point the water will dilute things just too much. with higher concentration peroxide you add less water and thus don't dilute it so quickly.
<wpwrak_>
one HCl
<wpwrak_>
but you don't have to be super precise. just make rough guesses. when you top off the acid later on it's all guesswork anyway. it works over a wide range of mixes so unless you're walter white, just accept that things aren;t always perfect :)
<wpwrak_>
anyway, off to do some more shopping
<nicksydney>
cool...will experiment with it tomorrow
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<DocScrutinizer05>
nicksydney: just make DAMN SURE not to bring close to etching bath *any* solvents like acetone or other hydrocarbon stuff or liquids or objects that might contain such solvents
<nicksydney>
DocScrutinizer05: ok sure...will be doing it in the garden away from all things
<DocScrutinizer05>
particularly nasty since acetone is a prominent solvent to remove toner etc from the PCB
<nicksydney>
cool
<DocScrutinizer05>
you don't want acetone peroxide (apex) to build up in your etching bath
<wpwrak_>
could that even happen in the bath ?
<wpwrak_>
the peroxide is very diluted anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<wpwrak_>
should try that once, then. something to scare the dogs in the neighbourhood with ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
apex - the devil's granma
<DocScrutinizer05>
one of the rules set into granite of chemical labs: never bring acetone and H2O2 next to each other
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter which concentration or how good the glas tube separating those two components
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's the same class of rule like "never oil oxygen bottle threads"
<DocScrutinizer05>
or "never pour water into acid"