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<hoppfull>
Hello, I'm a little confused about racket. In other languages I create a project and I install dependencies inside that project. Is the only option to install packages globally with raco pkg install?
<mirrorbird>
hoppfull, create a folder and put some scheme source files inside it. you have a project
<hoppfull>
ok, so I just download sources directly?
<mirrorbird>
what's wrong with raco pkg install?
<hoppfull>
hmm, I'm not against the idea I'm just a little surprised
<mirrorbird>
are you a node user?
<hoppfull>
node and stack
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<mirrorbird>
i never understoo why anyone would want a 10 GB subfolder in their project
<mirrorbird>
i get that you might need different dep versions for different projects though
<hoppfull>
Yeah, seeing how storage space is so hard to come by and everything
<mirrorbird>
if you use C/C++/many others depdencies can be/ usually are global
<mirrorbird>
why waste space?
<mirrorbird>
and bandwidth
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<mirrorbird>
you should look up how shared libraries work
<hoppfull>
10gb isn't a problem if you're working in a professional settings compared to the complexity of having new programmers set up their environment properly. But it's not a huge problem. I just want to check so I don't run around in circles forever. I do appreciate your response, thank you
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<mirrorbird>
installing dependencies isn't that hard really
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<hoppfull>
It doesn't matter. The reason I'm teaching myself scheme is because I'm going back to school to study mathematics. These issues are minor inconveniences when it's just me working on my code.
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<aeth>
Most language communities don't use semver widely enough to the point where something like node's system could work.
<hoppfull>
Yeah, I think I've been spoiled. :)
<aeth>
That and space actually isn't that cheap. Slow HDD space is cheap.
<mirrorbird>
imagine having to click around MSVC to add a DLL dependency :(
<aeth>
It's fairly easy to fill 4 TB these days and you can barely find any 8 TB SSDs.
<mirrorbird>
imagine having a few dozen node projects on your laptop
<mirrorbird>
i'm ashamed of ever having used node
<mirrorbird>
and typescript...
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<hoppfull>
Well, I tried getting C++ going and I ended up sitting with makefiles and cmake and this and that; everything except working on my code. no thanks.
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<mirrorbird>
should probably start with an IDE
<hoppfull>
So are there any testing frameworks for racket that you guys would recommend?
<mirrorbird>
cmake is cancerous i agree
<mirrorbird>
mostly because i can't be bothered to learn how to use it
<mirrorbird>
maybe it's time you learnt Emacs, for your LISP adventures
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<hoppfull>
oh yeah, emacs.
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<aeth>
Makefiles are pretty nice, but they can't support spaces in paths, which basically makes them unusable in general, especially if you want to let people compile on Windows, where such things are way more common.
<hoppfull>
I just want to try LISP out. I'm not sure it's for me yet.
<mirrorbird>
i have a funny feeling... it mightn't be
<mirrorbird>
nah sorry i won't be one of those lame IRCers i hate
<mirrorbird>
i have become what i hate
<mirrorbird>
who puts spaces in paths? seriously
<aeth>
My $HOME has 6 directories with spaces in the name (including a 'My Games' with two subdirectories, one with spaces in the name) from poorly configured Steam games that don't know about ~/.local/share/ and I have another 8 or so in ~/.local/share/
<aeth>
So the answer is, apparently, quite a lot of Windows applications do this, and Windows itself does.
<aeth>
(My bad, one of the ones in $HOME is from VirtualBox, not a game)
<mirrorbird>
i hate it, whenever i try to something with a Cool Movie 123.avi
<aeth>
Actually, I do have another 3 games that just put a dot in front of their directory, but still use spaces.
<aeth>
And, yeah, lots of videos with spaces.
<aeth>
I have some videos with 's and -s etc.
<aeth>
A few have ()s
<aeth>
Anyway, my point was, you can't really assume that the paths will be reasonable, but Make does.
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<mirrorbird>
hoppfull, have you considered Haskell btw?
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<mirrorbird>
if you like maths i think you'd like haskell. and dependency management is... is it good now?
<hoppfull>
mirrorbird, I've worked with Haskell for the past year. It's the reason I'm switching to mathematics. :)
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<aeth>
On the other hand, if you like maths, you'll probably like Lisp macros, which you can't really get in most languages.
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<hoppfull>
There are some things about LISP that I want to understand what the whole deal is. I tried Common Lisp but it felt like I was being sold the best horse and carriage in the world.
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<mirrorbird>
i tried Common Lisp briefly, then chicken scheme. ended up sticking with the second one at the time. not sure why
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<mirrorbird>
a lot of those grand old languages like common lisp, ocaml, ... are not very easily approachable
<hoppfull>
Scheme looks a lot nicer to me. In CL I see these clever procedures everywhere. That makes the language too rich.
<mirrorbird>
i love the syntax, so i wish LISP was more widely used. these days Clojure is the only hip LISP, and it sucks imo :/
<mirrorbird>
well.
<hoppfull>
Haskell is very complex but once you understand a principle, that principle is generalizable. Take the print procedure in CL, it is actually composition of a print procedure after a format function... So split it up for gods sake.
<hoppfull>
... and you pass a boolean to the print function if you want it to actually print.
<hoppfull>
Maybe that is awesome possum to some programmers but to me it's overly clever and the "grab a banana, get the gorilla and the jungle" phenomenon.
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<hoppfull>
mirrorbird, so you tried chicken scheme, what did you think of it?
<mirrorbird>
it was 7 years ago, can't quite recall. my knowledge was even shallower then than now. it was my first taste of functional programming really, but i wrote in a mostly imperative style
<mirrorbird>
but, it taught me the concepts, which was useful afterwards. now i like fp
<mirrorbird>
what can i say. i wrote a game in it. nothing fancy. don't think i know much about it
<hoppfull>
ok, no worries
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<vegankumpir>
how can you write imperative code with a functional language? :)
<hoppfull>
vegankumpir, if the language isn't pure then nothing is stopping you
<mirrorbird>
i guess procedural
<vegankumpir>
hoppfull: do you have an example snippet?
<hoppfull>
vegankumpir, isn't there a set! procedure in racket?
<mirrorbird>
well okay. i didn't code in a "functional style", whatever that means
<hoppfull>
and can't you do things like (and (print "hello") 5)
<hoppfull>
A side effect hiding in an expression
<mirrorbird>
i didn't make use of higher order functions. hmm. there was some function or construction that i was over-reliant on
<mirrorbird>
i guess i'm still stupid
<aeth>
hoppfull: Common Lisp actually has... like three entirely different systems that can print. FORMAT, WRITE-foo, and PRINfoo. This is just what I know about.
<hoppfull>
I did a lot of F# and I had to do a little Haskell now and then just to make sure I got it. Because it's so easy to fall into familiar thinking.
<hoppfull>
aeth: lol
<mirrorbird>
F# was an awful experience. very little documentation or information in general
<mirrorbird>
and it's .net so very little incentive to add it to my shitty toolbox
<hoppfull>
yeah, it took me way longer than it should have to get really good at it. But I kept at it because it was the first language where I felt like everything was right
<mirrorbird>
trying to get started, i got the impression that it wasn't ready for use (i know it is), or like MS was trying to hide the info from me
<mirrorbird>
"oh go away we're not ready to show it yet"
<mirrorbird>
yeah i liked something about it. can't remember why. but i think it's supposed to be almost ML?
<hoppfull>
yeah, or ocaml
<mirrorbird>
the clojure of .net
<mirrorbird>
i really wanted clojure to be nice but meh
<hoppfull>
isn't clojure the clojure of .net ;)
<mirrorbird>
oh. i didn't know that
<mirrorbird>
i put a bunch of languages on my todo list recently. mostly stuff i never got around to trying. but not sure if it will come to anything
<hoppfull>
I don't know if they still support it but in the past clojure could compile to both jvm and clr.
<hoppfull>
Anyway, I think there is a scheme for .net called IronScheme.
<hoppfull>
Don't know if it's still maintained.
<mirrorbird>
i dunno. i don't trust MS to support anything for the long term (if it's an MS proj)
<hoppfull>
I worked my first year at an office. An absolute nightmare. Politics.
<mirrorbird>
before uni i worked as a dev briefly, i was the youngst person there. avg age of other ppl was about 35 i think. they all talked about buying houses and kids and stuff
<mirrorbird>
having to shake hands and talk to people. blah.
<mirrorbird>
not buying kids
<hoppfull>
Second was a small startup in the chalmers venture building. Best job ever. Very intellectual environment. We read papers on algorithms and did really cool and innovative things with Haskell.
<mirrorbird>
buying $ houses and kids and stuff
<mirrorbird>
nice
<hoppfull>
Yeah, but I've realized it's rare. And I needed to switch now.
<mirrorbird>
oh so you worked as a dev?
<hoppfull>
yeah
<mirrorbird>
ah ok gotcha
<mirrorbird>
do you get headhunted?
<hoppfull>
yes
<mirrorbird>
all this talk about developer shortage
<mirrorbird>
oh well i guess since i don't use social media no one can headhunt me :D
<hoppfull>
Got a guy last week telling me he needed a Haskell dev for a remote position "ASAP"
<hoppfull>
get on linkedin
<mirrorbird>
omg give it to me
<mirrorbird>
i don't have shit to put on my CV. i just get recruiters with their lies
<hoppfull>
tell me about it
<mirrorbird>
i did have linkedin. i guess my grumpy photo is bad
<hoppfull>
contact Jordan Black from Signify Technologies and tell him you heard he was looking for a haskell dev
<hoppfull>
also put up a profile on their web site
<hoppfull>
a lot of scala but jeezus it pays well
<mirrorbird>
i like scala
<hoppfull>
some ads they put up are between 200k and 250k USD per year.
<mirrorbird>
well. do i though
<hoppfull>
Scala is the C# of the JVM if you ask me. ;)
<mirrorbird>
do you have a github account i can peruse?
<mirrorbird>
same nick?
<hoppfull>
I think you need to be on the lookout when getting a scala job, or you're going to spend your work hours looking out for lazy devs
<mirrorbird>
oh?
<mirrorbird>
cool that you got into FP after/during vocational school though
<mirrorbird>
i am extremely lazy, still, after all this work and studying. i can barely be bothered to write a small test project in a new technology/lang
<hoppfull>
To be honest, I'm also lazy which is why I like FP. I don't like to think. I want things to just work.
<hoppfull>
When I say lazy devs, I probably mean careless devs.
<mirrorbird>
yeah i got that. i just meant that i'm too lazy to get a good job
<mirrorbird>
do you use yesod?
<hoppfull>
ah
<mirrorbird>
i was going to try that, since i was getting back into haskell again
<mirrorbird>
fuck i would love to work with haskell
<hoppfull>
I don't use yesod. We used servant at my job.
<hoppfull>
And event sourcing, wosh! that was amazing
<hoppfull>
I can't imaging not using event sourcing. It was so funny how some simple things we threw up had huge impact on productivity and reliability while some super clever things didn't have that much of an impact.
<mirrorbird>
looks like jordan isn't looking based on his page
<hoppfull>
Just add him
<hoppfull>
And some of his colleagues
<hoppfull>
and set your profile to "Haskell developer"
<hoppfull>
nothing more
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<mirrorbird>
lol
<mirrorbird>
man now i can't sleep
<hoppfull>
lol why not?
<mirrorbird>
cool that you are studying maths. any particular specialisation?
<mirrorbird>
well i was sleepy from studying, now i got a jolt of energy thinking of all my possibilities
<mirrorbird>
maybe i'll dygna
<hoppfull>
Matematikprogrammet, no specialization yet
<mirrorbird>
ah ok
<hoppfull>
started yesterdya
<mirrorbird>
oh? i am starting again on 1st sept i think. hm
<mirrorbird>
if you were doing CS/CE i would have offered my help but i am not a good mathematician
<hoppfull>
dude, I had no idea about the opportunities for good haskell developers
<hoppfull>
no worries, mate
<mirrorbird>
me neither... people often say haskell has no use in industry. but despite that i had decided to try out some frameworks for fun a few hrs ago
<mirrorbird>
always wanted to write a proper program in haskell
<mirrorbird>
chalmers loves their haskel
<hoppfull>
It's amazing, I've never seen anything more stable
<mirrorbird>
love their / loves its
<mirrorbird>
i'm getting flashbacks to 4 yrs ago when i was trying to help the first-time coders learn haskell
<hoppfull>
We did this big refactoring and I mentioned to my more experienced colleagues who frustrating it was that it took us two weeks and I just wanted it over with
<hoppfull>
they looked at me and said "this went extreemely quickly"
<mirrorbird>
really though. don't use node :D well you are transitioning to maths now so it doesn't matter, but i was going to suggest using C for a while just to get some perspective
<hoppfull>
that if this had been a mainstream project we would have merely had the committé in place by now
<mirrorbird>
ah
<hoppfull>
Yeah, I've just been using node because I thought PureScript was kind of cool.
<mirrorbird>
i spent all summer writing c
<hoppfull>
The reason I sat with C++ earlier today was because PureScript can use C++ as backend instead of node.
<hoppfull>
So you basically get a Haskell without a garbage collector.
<mirrorbird>
hm. i guess clojurescript,coffeescript,ts and all those sounded cool but i dunno, i prefer just writing js in that case
<hoppfull>
Have you tried NixOS?
<mirrorbird>
no
<hoppfull>
it's basically a functional os
<mirrorbird>
i dunno. i don't think i will ever leave debian now
<hoppfull>
Which distro?
<mirrorbird>
debian
<hoppfull>
ah ok :)
<hoppfull>
never tried it
<hoppfull>
unless you count raspbian
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<hoppfull>
Quick question, I'm considering taking a part time job for some extra cash. Do you have experience with ctk?