<mbj>
dkubb: And: It turns out it also needs "domain object tree filters" like I build in mutant.
<mbj>
I think its time to back that stuff with axiom-logic
<mbj>
BTW I have a 10sec lag here ;)
<dkubb>
mbj: maybe you can sort of stub it out.. or you could just require axiom for now and use the pieces you want, and then change the require statement to axiom-logic when we extract it?
<dkubb>
mbj: I would guess you could represent sets of objects as a relation though
<mbj>
dkubb: Thats actually a brilliant idea.
<mbj>
dkubb: will do so!
<mbj>
dkubb: Yeah.
<mbj>
dkubb: BTW you'll love xspec.
<mbj>
dkubb: I'm at my 4th refactoring round
<dkubb>
mbj: I'd like to actually make it so that most axiom relation subclass #each methods work in parallel too
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<mbj>
dkubb: And it turns out to be very easy to write an "invariant testing" system.
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<mbj>
dkubb: Interesting idea, but I think this should not be the default.
<mbj>
dkubb: Also I expect we need some kind of "optimization" layer, that deduces if the optimization (parralel run) has a chance to be bigger than the overhead.
<mbj>
dkubb: Spinning up 10 threads for 5 tuples would not make sense ;)
<dkubb>
mbj: yeah, or some kind of thread pool
<dkubb>
mbj: or maybe I add a #peach interface
<mbj>
dkubb: Yeah, but inter thread communication I still costly.
<dkubb>
yeah.. if someone does it explicitly then it's not so bad
<mbj>
dkubb: But I think I dont have to tell you about the trade offs to do ;)
<dkubb>
yeah
<dkubb>
my main thing would be wanting to make sure that I find any threading issues
<dkubb>
I don't expect to use it very often since I would expect to be using tight enough queries that my result sets are smallish
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<dkubb>
but for the in-memory adapter it would be nice
<mbj>
dkubb: I'd prefer an optimizer would inject "paralel executed nodes".
<mbj>
dkubb: So no #peach
<mbj>
dkubb: Just two equivalent and interchangable implementations.
<mbj>
dkubb: Imagine an ast based representation, an optimizer could instantiate and evaluator tree (based on an ast walker).
<snusnu>
hey guys
<mbj>
snusnu: hola!
<snusnu>
btw, my hd got messed up BADLY a few days ago, so i had to reinstall everything, and am now using maverick, instead of my "beloved" 10.6.8 … still not finished with setting up dev env … so, no real work done, plus, no rom-mapper spiking so far :/
<mbj>
snusnu: backups?
<snusnu>
ehm
<mbj>
snusnu: I do block backups for that reason ;)
<snusnu>
yes of course
<snusnu>
the hd wasn't/isn't dead .. it just somehow managed to completely screw up the journal, while at the same time being completely full
<snusnu>
so it said it can't do anything to repair it
<mbj>
snusnu: logical error, bad.
<snusnu>
i didn't bother with more "forensic" stuff … and took the chance to get a more modern dev env
<mbj>
heh
<mbj>
snusnu: I'm spiking my rspec replacement.
<mbj>
dkubb: Sorry for working here and not on rom-*, sql
<snusnu>
at any point i could mount it read-only tho, so all good
<mbj>
dkubb: But that was the one that I was most interested in when I begun to have free time.
<mbj>
snusnu: I'll push ASAP it does not crash anymore ;)
<snusnu>
hehe fair enough
<mbj>
snusnu: But I wanna save you and dkubb some "comments on code under heavy flux".
<snusnu>
mbj: fwiw, i finally took the step to switch to terminal vim + tmux .. it'll take me a few more hours next week to be able to be productive again
<snusnu>
mbj: ;)
<mbj>
haha
<mbj>
snusnu: nice
<snusnu>
finally got rid of macvim and janus, in favor of brew vim + vundle
<snusnu>
much nicer now
<mbj>
hah
<mbj>
You need to share your knowlege with my wife, we bought a mac for her some weeks ago. She needs this Adobe tools (Photoshop, Indesign, ....) for work.
<mbj>
But she also needs to have a Posix env, => MacOsX
<mbj>
I'm on a cellphone line with average rtt of 6000ms. And the internet still works, through I can still see the tcp handshake steps in tcpdump in slow motion ;)
<snusnu>
well, you know me and my "user capabilities" .. but i can try to offer help, sure
<snusnu>
but to be fair and honest, i mostly copied solnic's dotfiles, lol
<mbj>
haha
<snusnu>
but i will only stop once i'm down with tmux and, especially, vim-fugitive
<snusnu>
so once i'm there, i can maybe be of help :)
<mbj>
yeah
<snusnu>
mbj: btw, it was funny how i finally found out what was wrong with the hd … i had to boot the mac in verbose safe mode, only to see the actual logs at lightning speed, too fast for the eye, before the computer shut down
<snusnu>
so i had to take a fuckin' video of my screen, with a friend's mobile phone, in order to actually be able to *read* the output
<snusnu>
hehe
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<mbj>
snusnu: loool
<mbj>
snusnu: Thats funny!
<snusnu>
it is, right?
<snusnu>
maybe i'm just too dumb for other solutions, but it worked ;)
<mbj>
snusnu: In linux you can scrollback the boot log. most likely also in macosx
<snusnu>
well, it just shut down the computer
<snusnu>
and it could not write anything anymore, to storage i mean
<snusnu>
so no way to see the log on next boot
<snusnu>
the only thing my eye caught, was ……… CPU halted
<snusnu>
why it did that, was too fast for my eyes ;)
<mbj>
haha
<mbj>
okay
<mbj>
BTW macosx must be crappy if it shuts down for such a reason.
<mbj>
It should print a kernel oops or something ;)
<mbj>
And WAIT ;)
<snusnu>
yeah, and it definitely wasn't presenting itself to the most smartest of users :p
<breakingthings>
you could probably have run in single user mode
<breakingthings>
cmd+s on startup
<breakingthings>
just opens a terminal
<snusnu>
lol see .. that might very well have worked, i just know i didn't try it :p
<mbj>
I have absolutely NO
<mbj>
knowlege about macosx
<mbj>
Started with linux, will die with linux.
<mbj>
Better to use a tool I know. Dunno if I'll ever learn as much about another OS.
<snusnu>
i even thought about switching back to linux, but then i thought, hey, if it does that the day after apple releases it's new version *free* .. it must be a sign … heh .. for whatever
<snusnu>
oh, and i forgot .. during that, i found out that my dvd drive is broken, so i couldn't use my dvd to reinstall .. then went on to make a bootable usb stick, only to find out that my particular model didn't boot from that stick
<mbj>
:D
<snusnu>
which eventually made me install mountain lion, only to immediately install mavericks on first mountain lion boot :p
<mbj>
:D
<mbj>
What was the name, murphy ;)
<snusnu>
because a buddy had a mountain lion boot stick which worked, lying around
<snusnu>
right, murphy it was
<snusnu>
heh
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<mbj>
bundle install is near to impossible over my line :(
<mbj>
Only gem sources, no git sources.
<mbj>
TBH bundler does a very inneficient job.
<mbj>
We need a better bundler, and a server that allows to query more dependency information in one round trip.
<mbj>
Also bundler does NOT seem to reuse TCP connections!
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<dkubb>
mbj: we need to figure out a list of tasks that we can point someone to who wants to get started with helping ROM, but doesn't know where to begin
<dkubb>
mbj: I get lots of peolpe asking me, but since I have to come up with an answer on the fly I think it's not as optimal as telling peolpe to pick off the "Getting Started" TODO list
<mbj>
dkubb: Yeah
<mbj>
dkubb: A gist?
<dkubb>
mbj: what I was thinking is creating an issue with the tasks before a specific milestone and people can pick off the list by putting their name beside the item
<bf4>
dkubb mbj or a wiki page? or a doc.md that takes PRs?
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<bf4>
One point of confusion for me is where all the parts of rom-rb fit together, what is required for what kinds of tasks. (including repos not under rom-rb)
<mbj>
dkubb: +1
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<dkubb>
bf4: yeah any of those would work. we need to put together a few nicer diagrams to explain that
<dkubb>
bf4: one I made a while ago is http://twitpic.com/6erg5f .. which is actually relatively accurate still
<dkubb>
bf4: the green stuff is basically axiom, while the blue stuff is rom, and the orange stuff is either not written yet or very early
<dkubb>
the session isn't really in this, but I guess it would kind of sit on top of everything, or at least on top of the blue stuff
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<elskwid>
Howdy folks.
<dkubb>
elskwid: good afternoon
<elskwid>
dkubb: How are you?
<mbj>
elskwid: hi
<elskwid>
Hi mbj.
<mbj>
elskwid: Happy to seeing you maintaining virtus and using mutant to do so ;)
<elskwid>
mbj: Thanks. I have asked solnic to give me a primer on using mutant. I haven't used it yet. Currently, I'm chasing down what I think is a type inference bug.
<elskwid>
DIG BOY DIG
<mbj>
elskwid: have fun! I hope mutant becomes more accessible soon.
<elskwid>
mbj: Thanks again. I'm also honing my documentation skills by doing full user docs for Virtus. If you guys like them I'll volunteer to help doc other projects.
<mbj>
elskwid: mutant can need better docs, just like rom-* ;)
<elskwid>
mbj: Yep. I thought Virtus would be a good place to figure stuff out. I'm quite happy with they way they look so far.
<elskwid>
dkubb: Do you have a few moments to help me understand Axiom::Types?
<mbj>
elskwid: And pls give me a feedback on how you using mutant, where you strugle etc.
<elskwid>
mbj: You can count on that.
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<bf4>
dkubb yeah, that image needs annotation. I couldn't derive from it the parts of rom-rb and their dependencies / dependent architectures
<dkubb>
elskwid: not atm since I'm working, but if you can isolate something in a small repro I can do some digging tonight
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<elskwid>
mbj: How would you feel if I took a stab at getting a mutant to run with Minitest?
<elskwid>
dkubb: solnic was able to clear up what I was seeing. Turns out there are some rough edges with type lookup in Virtus.
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<mbj>
elskwid: I'd be very happy ;)
<mbj>
elskwid: BUT a word of warning, I'm about to refactor the killers a bit.
<mbj>
elskwid: But I think an minitest killer would be easy to adapt.
<mbj>
elskwid: The big problem of mutant and mutation testing in general: Selecting the correct tests.
<mbj>
elskwid: And I'll inject an object that tells about current strategy.
<mbj>
elskwid: For example an: Just run all the tests now, object.
<mbj>
elskwid: Or an: run all tests that explicitly mention to be for Foo#bar, object.
<mbj>
elskwid: OR an run all tests that you can identify that target any method on Foo
<elskwid>
mbj: Sounds good. This would be proof of concept to just get the basics working and then you and I can work to write the minitest adapter final.
<mbj>
elskwid: I dont expect all killers will be as fine grained as possible.
<elskwid>
mbj: Of however that works out.
<mbj>
elskwid: Just "copy" the rspec killer.
<mbj>
elskwid: And make it work with minitest.
<elskwid>
mbj: BINGO
<mbj>
elskwid: Once we have this we'll rip out that rspec and minitest killers in mutant-rspec, and mutant-minitest .
<elskwid>
Agree again.
<mbj>
elskwid: Currently mutant only supports rspec, so a hard dep made some sense.
<mbj>
*hard dep on rspec
<elskwid>
I'm a big fan of Minitest these days.
<mbj>
Im not ;) dont like its internals.
<mbj>
same with rspec
<mbj>
writing my own "spec system for public interfaces of objects"
<elskwid>
mbj: I find that interesting with Minitest. I like it.
<elskwid>
Well, I don't like the "seattle-style" method defs
<elskwid>
heh
<mbj>
elskwid: same here, but my concerce go bejond the defs ;)
<elskwid>
mbj: True. bbiab, I'm going to go play in Virtus.
<mbj>
I'm goona sleep, cu
<mbj>
dkubb: cu also
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<dkubb>
I like that they attempt to keep minitest overhead really low
<dkubb>
I still think it is possible to improve though, especially something targetted towards our own style
<dkubb>
if you're going to reinvent the wheel though you need to try to do something different and/or better
<dkubb>
which mbj is doing
<elskwid>
dkubb: Sure, otherwise, why do it? :-)
<elskwid>
dkubb: The biggest plus for Minitest is that it's just Ruby, being used well. The. End.
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