<zenspider>
does it really fucking matter? file a ticket. let them sort it out
<drbrain>
↑ this
<postmodern>
zenspider, ok that's the answer i was looking for
<postmodern>
zenspider, you don't have to curse
<drbrain>
people report all kinds of things to help.rubygems.org, we figure it out eventually, I'm sure Team Nokogiri can do the same
<zenspider>
I don't have to. but I did.
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<zenspider>
you don't have to tell me how to speak. but you did.
<Spaceghostc2c>
I use them all the time.
<Spaceghostc2c>
But then again, I care about those things a bit. Probably more than others.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Private methods, that is.
<postmodern>
zenspider, i was just asking a simple question, don't have to get aggressive :(
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<Spaceghostc2c>
postmodern: Don't worry about it. Just take his good knowledge and skip on his particular flavor of communication.
<Spaceghostc2c>
He's a clever guy.
<ddd>
or mine :) I'm a curser.
<zenspider>
ddd: dirty dirty curser
<Spaceghostc2c>
ddd: Shut your fucking mouth. :p
<ddd>
Spaceghostc2c: twat did you say?
<ddd>
zenspider: i try :)
<Spaceghostc2c>
I cunt believe you didn't hear me.
<ddd>
i have an ear infucktion. kind of difficult to
<ddd>
now that we played that ancient beast out to its inevitable conclusion, we move on :)
<Spaceghostc2c>
I had a doozy. :(
<eam>
dirty cursor, transaction aborted
<ddd>
doh!
<ddd>
Spaceghostc2c: redo my vim config for me. i'm too lazy to do it at the moment
<zenspider>
any other emacs users in here and active?
<Spaceghostc2c>
My vim consulting rate is an order of magnitude more costly than a bottle of Royal Crown XR.
<ddd>
zenspider: lol you would be ;)
<Spaceghostc2c>
zenspider: It counts if I use emacs with vim embedded inside it.
<ddd>
Spaceghostc2c: cheap!
<Spaceghostc2c>
ddd: I know, right? A steal!
<zenspider>
ddd: me. and jim weirich. and matz. and avdi. and and and... see a pattern? :P
<ddd>
zenspider: trying not to, but failing miserably
<eam>
zenspider: emacs user here, but I use viper-mode ...
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<zenspider>
eam: do you use ruby-mode as packaged in emacs or something else?
<eam>
as packaged, generally
<eam>
but I am relatively new to ruby so I haven't done much research
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<banisterfiend>
ddd: i also use emacs, and i'm one of the super top dudes too
<banisterfiend>
:P jk
<Spaceghostc2c>
zenspider: And RMS... but that's not a good addition to the list. :P
<ddd>
banisterfiend: :-)
<Spaceghostc2c>
And Linus, which isn't bad because he's from Portland. :D
<zenspider>
banisterfiend: what ruby setup do you use?
<banisterfiend>
Spaceghostc2c: the author of gcc and gdb isn't a good addition to the list ? ?:)
<ddd>
quite a few using emacs, quite a few using vim. its all good in the neighborhood
<Spaceghostc2c>
banisterfiend: I meant that I don't like toejam nommers. Either use the under the nail stuff or pass on it.
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<ddd>
banisterfiend: RMS is fanatical about anything and everything he does. of course he'd be fanatical about his editor too
<zenspider>
om nom nom cappuccino
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<Spaceghostc2c>
zenspider: Does that count as a nommable item? I'm not sure.
<zenspider>
sure it is
<ddd>
quad shot white chocolate mocha, or a mix of English Toffee & French Vanilla. mmm top it off with a quad shot and you'll be workin for awhile :)
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<banisterfiend>
zenspider: quite bare, i think i have 'electric ruby' and that's it. what do you use?
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<banisterfiend>
i'm sure Mon_Ouie has something quite elaborate
<banisterfiend>
he wrote a sort of slime-like emacs script to aid him with ruby development
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<zenspider>
banisterfiend: I'm working on a fork of enhanced-ruby-mode and trying to get it back up to snuff
<banisterfiend>
i guess i have a kind of repl oriented workflow too, but i just have the repl open in one buffer, and i edit-method when i want to add/modify methods which opens up another buffer window, modifications are saved/reloaded; it's not particularly sophisticated though\\
<zenspider>
it has "better" parsing because it uses ripper. and some other stuff too.
<zenspider>
but seems to have been abandoned so I forked and am fixing it up
<banisterfiend>
zenspider: what does enhanced-ruby-mode offer?
<zenspider>
mostly it is about the parsing enhancements
<zenspider>
like it doesn't git confused by "what?"
<zenspider>
where ruby-mode would first lex the ?" and then you'd have an unterminated string
<zenspider>
which is annoying as shit
<banisterfiend>
yeah it used to get seriously confused by `` inside a string
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<zenspider>
well... you could try out github.com/zenspider/enhanced-ruby-mode
<zenspider>
it also has error/warning highlighting.... but I turn it off
<banisterfiend>
thanks
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<reactormonk>
zenspider, how do you type do/end with enh-ruby-mode? always have to indent the 'end' manually
<jaimef>
is ruby dynamic or lexically scoped?
<reactormonk>
jaimef, both
<reactormonk>
jaimef, but lexical scope tends to be used more often
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<zenspider>
reactormonk: I'm steadfastly against electric modes so I just type it. there is a ruby-electric-mode that you might be interested in
<zenspider>
as far as indention, try C-j and look at binding it to RET
<zenspider>
headius: what. the. fuck?!?!
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<reactormonk>
zenspider, so type 'end' and it's unindented
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<zenspider>
reactormonk: blah blah do C-j should insert a return and an extra indentation level
<zenspider>
end TAB C-j
<zenspider>
should fix indentation on the end and move to the next line at the proper indentation
<reactormonk>
zenspider, asking if I can avoid that TAB at then of the line
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<reactormonk>
zenspider, I suppose with the extra information from enh-ruby-mode, it would be possible to make an electric that does not suck
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<zenspider>
ERM has some electric shit built in... but I have yet to use it
<reactormonk>
C-c / has a nice end
<reactormonk>
even autoindents
<reactormonk>
but use it on an empty line only
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<shachaf>
chessguy: I wrote lens-style traversals in Ruby to see what it would be like!
<shachaf>
It turns out Ruby is pretty ill-suited for it.
<shachaf>
But it does work.
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<headius>
zenspider: wtf?
<headius>
I've had a lot of wtf the past few days, you might have to be more specific
<zenspider>
actually... that was about your post few days in general (I assume). one person in particular
<zenspider>
one seriously off his meds person
<headius>
yeah, things seem to be getting worse very rapidly
<headius>
we'll see how the Ruby implementers meeting goes this week
<zenspider>
I've told tenderlove that if he continues in the same direction for another day or two that he really needs to not have a speaking role at that table
<headius>
I am an eternal optimist, but I'm losing faith too
<headius>
it's not going to productive if one member of the team/committee is against everything
<headius>
I assume you saw the alternative "agenda"
<zenspider>
he's a smart guy. he HAS to see the pattern of his interactions with others... so when he pulls the "quit assuming there is conflict" thing, I HAVE to assume he's _playing_ innocent in order to further his ... "cause"?
<zenspider>
to actually be ignorant that EVERYONE thinks he's being a total cunt whenever they interact with him? not likely with someone that smart. he's not aspergersy enough
<zenspider>
I didn't see the alternative agenda!
<zenspider>
maybe tenderlove "spared" me of it
<headius>
he sent it to the thread about the implementers meeting…I'll find it
<headius>
kinda gives you a feel for how the meeting might go
<zenspider>
I know you're being an optimist...
<zenspider>
but I say "fuck him"... and de-voice him from the start
<zenspider>
better yet, don't invite him to another meeting
<headius>
I guess the problem is that we need a representative from Rubinius
<zenspider>
but I'm biased. I had to work with the guy. he was bad then... he seems off his meds now
<zenspider>
no. you don't.
<headius>
hah…ok, I would *like* to see a representative from Rubinius :)
<zenspider>
you need quorum
<headius>
I suppose that's true
<drbrain>
is lrz invited?
<zenspider>
if they can't put forth a representative who is constructive, they don't get a voice
<headius>
I don't expect any major decisions to be finalized at these meetings anyway…more a chance to Q/A live
<drbrain>
(for RubyMotion, but he might have some pull with MacRuby too)
<headius>
drbrain: I believe so
<headius>
and maglev
<headius>
timfel will represent maglev I think
<zenspider>
I thought tenderlove had contacted monty... but I'm out of the loop on the details
<headius>
looks like lrz might have been missed…probably should be there
<headius>
I'll recopy him
<zenspider>
thank you for being... well... sane
<zenspider>
and rational for that matter... but really my "high" bar is sane
<zenspider>
for now
<headius>
I ain't got time to bleed
<drbrain>
HA!
<zenspider>
and no... the agenda that tenderlove set makes total sense for a first meeting. quick and easy and figure out if it is beneficial and move from there
<zenspider>
if there were meetings every month, the bigger stuff could be addressed
<petercooper>
The sad part is I agree with some of his concerns but he's not going about it very well.
<zenspider>
instead. unsane guy is trying to derail from the start
<headius>
yeah
<zenspider>
petercooper: totally agree
<headius>
I'm looking forward to the meetings…they were useful when we did them a few years ago
<zenspider>
this is one of those "do you want to be right or effective?" scenarios
<headius>
and yeah, I agree too
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<petercooper>
There is certainly something to be concerned about with the.. fragility of what Ruby 2.0 is.
<zenspider>
*nod*
<headius>
I want to work with tenderlove and wycats to try to formalize the current process with brixen's framework in mind
<headius>
I think we have the tools and some of the process in place already, if it gets cleaned up
<petercooper>
Ruby Design Council would be a great name for a band
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<headius>
honestly, I think ruby-core is very receptive to input…refinements are on the verge of getting pulled because of input, and it was a major, long-promised feature
<headius>
if that doesn't show the process can work, I'm not sure what would
<petercooper>
I kinda hope it stays in, but I have a bias there.
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<headius>
I don't have a strong opinion other than that it is too fluxxy this close to release
<headius>
the feature might be great…but which version of it?
<headius>
etc
<ryanf>
petercooper: do you have a bias in favor of things that people need to be educated about? :)
<petercooper>
The more messed up Ruby 2.0 is the more material I have to either write or disseminate ;-) This is why I'm not on any design council <g>
<headius>
bleh, I suppose I should get involved in this "interrupt" bug
<zenspider>
headius: I'm against refinements. I don't like saying that in public because I don't want to be in agreement with unsane person.
<headius>
another long thread
<headius>
zenspider: I'm not in favor, but my concern is mostly because nobody understands them and they keep changing
<zenspider>
I brought up my concerns when they were first announced an rubyconf and got blank stares from ko1 and matz. I haven't seen them properly addressed since then (2 years or so?) so I don't see how they're viable
<zenspider>
that too
<headius>
the idea of scope-local global prepends isn't a bad model, but it's my model and I'm not sure that's been confirmed
<zenspider>
debuggablity / maintenance seems thrown out the window
<petercooper>
ryanf: Yes. In my ideal world, they'll add multiple dispatch, pointers, and JavaScript style equality a week before ruby-2.0.0 final.
<headius>
debuggability in the original proposal was for shit…too many variables
<headius>
the new proposals are easier to follow and debug, but probably aren't as "useful"
<headius>
it needs more bake time
<headius>
everything else I've seen going into 2.0 is quantifiable
<zenspider>
I don't think littering everything with #source_location is a viable debugging model.... I haven't seen any proposals to make it make more sense
<headius>
I posted some long comments yesterday or day before trying to put a formal model on refinements
<petercooper>
ryanf: Oh, and Algol style 'pass by name'.
<headius>
basically, in a refined scope you see some additional anon classes in front of every class
<zenspider>
petercooper: NOW you're talking crazy
<headius>
like they're virtually prepended
<headius>
but that's based on matz's recent changes, and shugo pointed out how different it is from even a couple weeks ago
<zenspider>
heh
<headius>
shugo wants to postpone
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<zenspider>
yeah. I'm glad shugo's been speaking up (again)
<drbrain>
on 32 bit systems I think they're the old values
<drbrain>
(no Flonum on 32bit)
<headius>
ahh right
<Spaceghostc2c>
That'd make sense.
<headius>
so they needed a bit for flonum
<headius>
and shifted things around a bit
<headius>
yeah, meaningless to us…we emulate the fixnum thing because it's not really a big deal
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<drbrain>
probably the same for Flonum
<headius>
our fixnums are all their own objects anyway
<drbrain>
for you
<headius>
yeah, I haven't decided if we'll emulate any flonum stuff
<headius>
they're still just plain objects for us
<petercooper>
Wanna play guess the new feature in Ruby 2.0?
<petercooper>
About it, zenspider said: "I would like to see this approved. I think it could open up a lot of interesting programming styles we can't even currently consider."
<headius>
petercooper: Module.prepend?
<petercooper>
No
<headius>
hmm, I need to think more logically about this
<headius>
what would zenspider like
<petercooper>
And he said that almsot 2 years ago
<charliesome>
petercooper: dynamic scoping?
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<Spaceghostc2c>
petercooper: I think this is refinements?
<Spaceghostc2c>
IDK.
<petercooper>
OK, I'll give you a clue. It involves defining methods.
<headius>
yeah I was going to say refinements next
<havenn>
petercooper: Named args?
<Spaceghostc2c>
havenn: They don't change much.
<drbrain>
m = def foo() end ?
<Spaceghostc2c>
Are arguments proper objects in ruby2?
<petercooper>
Clue #2. The proposer said: "It's like monkey-patching. Powerful, dangerous, but also really useful. "
<Spaceghostc2c>
petercooper: Refinements.
<headius>
oh yeah, was that decided? does def return a Method object now?
<petercooper>
It's not refinements.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Oh.
<charliesome>
petercooper: slices
<Spaceghostc2c>
Is it already named for ruby2 release?
<petercooper>
OK. Clue #3 which gives the game away: "N.send(:define_method, :foo, M.instance_method(:foo))"
<sent-hil>
is the hash rocket syntax pretty much dead?
<drbrain>
sent-hil: no
<Spaceghostc2c>
NEVER
<ryanf>
does anyone hate Module#prepend?
<drbrain>
sent-hil: only use { foo: bar } when you don't need to call #to_sym
<ryanf>
I can't really think of a reason to
<Spaceghostc2c>
Nope.
<headius>
ryanf: not that I know
<ryanf>
phew
<Spaceghostc2c>
I prefer the new way though.
<sent-hil>
drbrain: any reason why to_sym won't work with foo:bar
<Spaceghostc2c>
The only times I don't use it is when there's a library that doesn't work with the new syntax.
<petercooper>
Sadly there's a popular idea that the { x: y } syntax is the "Ruby 1.9 way" of doing hashes. Rather than it really just being optional sugar that 1.9 introduced.
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<drbrain>
sent-hil: if you need to call #to_sym you expose yourself to a to DoS and lose performance
<Spaceghostc2c>
Or yeah, if I run into those things that I didn't know about either.
<drbrain>
the cost of looking up the symbol is greater than hashing the string you've already got
<sent-hil>
drbrain: ah, thx
<drbrain>
and you don't fill up ObjectSpace with symbols you may only use once
<Spaceghostc2c>
drbrain: So you prefer the hashrocket?
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<ryanf>
petercooper: I'm glad that that hasn't happened with stabby lambdas
<charliesome>
{ x: y } is great because it means 1.8 users can't use your code
<drbrain>
Spaceghostc2c: I prefer { foo: bar } if I'm using symbols for keys
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<petercooper>
charliesome: Downside is it looks like JavaScript
<drbrain>
but I only use symbols for keys when a symbol would be the "natural" key
<Spaceghostc2c>
drbrain: That makes sense to me.
<drbrain>
(I don't have to call #to_sym on a String)
<petercooper>
Spaceghostc2c: JS has many things going for it but its syntax and aesthetic is not one of them, alas.
<petercooper>
Although I was mostly joking with regards to hashes (or objects, as they say).
<Spaceghostc2c>
petercooper: I'm probably just a prat because I started in javascript.
<charliesome>
things js has going for it: it's widely available, it's reasonably fast
<petercooper>
TBH, if there were any piece of syntax to actually steal from JS, it would be that :)
<Spaceghostc2c>
It makes sense in a C-syntax way, but it also sucks for it.
<Spaceghostc2c>
It has OO and message passing win, prototypal power, and goes so far as to be easy to use with multiple programming paradigms should you want to pervert it for that.
<petercooper>
Yeah, having function() { } /everywhere/ gets draining. Though it's picking up a stabby lambda variant in ES6.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Yeah. I mean, there's some constant repetitive stuff in most languages.
<petercooper>
There is, but function () { } is so useful and heavily used in JS in particular.
<Spaceghostc2c>
Adjusting path in ruby bothers me a lot to handle all the time when playing around.
<Spaceghostc2c>
I don't think ruby has too much ceremony that's unecessary, maybe 'end', but I don't want whitespace to be relevant either.
<Spaceghostc2c>
drbrain: Let us ennnnnd all things.
<drbrain>
I need to remember to use ennd in all my presentation code examples
<charliesome>
i love the people who miss the joke in the comments
<Spaceghostc2c>
Lol.
<firefux>
drbrain: because of autocomplete?
<drbrain>
firefux: for the LOLs
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<petercooper>
Not sure if it'd work in the real world but I'd quite like whitespace to be significant /if/ it is clearly intended to be.
<firefux>
:)
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<Spaceghostc2c>
Maybe do blocks could be somewhat whitespace significant.
<petercooper>
Almost like JavaScript's automatic semicolon insertion but kinda in reverse. If the code fails but is nested properly and syntactically valid /other/ than missing ends, add them in.
<petercooper>
Otherwise, remain as present.
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<Spaceghostc2c>
I think we can all agree that the ceremony that causes your tab key to wear down in python is the worst. Kidding, sorry. :(
<zenspider>
Spaceghostc2c: nope. there is a class check I wanted to remove. matz said no because people might hurt themselves
<petercooper>
don't run with scissors
<Spaceghostc2c>
zenspider: I think that there was something, probably not what I think it is, that the programming ruby 1.9 book had in it along these lines.
<zenspider>
don't bind C methods onto other classes
<zenspider>
which is really easy to check
<Spaceghostc2c>
It actually had a line that said: "I don't know how to use this in any legitimate use case, but if you do, email me."
<Spaceghostc2c>
Something like that.
<zenspider>
I just wanted to experiment with prototype-based inheritence and code like self but in ruby
<Spaceghostc2c>
Oh.
<Spaceghostc2c>
That makes a good amount of sense.
<Spaceghostc2c>
You can tell zenspider has no love for JS and self. :p
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<zenspider>
JS? no. self? yes. but it is aging and unsupported atm. afaik, the funding to finish the metacircular impl died even before oracle aquired sun. ungar's funding there was redirected to his massively parallel smalltalk
<rking>
sent-hil: Thanks, man!
<zenspider>
but I love love love the ideas that came from self. 5 instruction bytecode? hell yes
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<Spaceghostc2c>
drbrain: Do you call the new lambda syntax dashrockets? Cause I do, I think it's a fitting name.
<drbrain>
I haven't seen a catchy name for them
<rking>
Spaceghostc2c: Are you also a "Threequals" guy?
<Spaceghostc2c>
rking: I come from a land of "strict comparator"
<rking>
But that's not even what it is in Ruby
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<mars777>
test
<rking>
.
<mars777>
I need help with my Ruby Script, when I puts the output I just want line 9 to show. What do I need to finish this? Here is the gist, i worked through until this point. mailto:git@gist.github.comcom:2139c9079af2614e4026.git
<petercooper>
ooh, the good ole regex local variable definition trick!
<rking>
Actually, I like the split version better. 1min
<rking>
petercooper: I'm hooked. ☺
<petercooper>
I love it but never seem to remember to use it.
<mars777>
ok
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<rking>
mars777: I commented a String#split version on that same gist, but I didn't end up liking it as much as I thought I would.
<mars777>
Well thanks for your help
<mars777>
Was my script
<mars777>
Kind of in the right direction?
<mars777>
Still learning Ruby
<rking>
Yeah, t'was.
<rking>
mars777: #1 thing I could recommend for you:
<rking>
gem install pry-plus && pry
<rking>
Then just do thousands of things in there.
<mars777>
Oh yea I heard of that from a friend awhile back.
<mars777>
Yea i will install it right now
<mars777>
Thanks!
<rking>
Having a REPL handy (a thing where you type in Ruby and get back its expression result) is handy enough, but pry gives you more tools, like you can do:
<rking>
? [].sort
<rking>
(And see the docs for Array#sort)
<rking>
require 'open-uri'
<rking>
$ open
<rking>
(And see the source of the open-uri's hacked up 'open' method)
<rking>
cd [1,2,3]
<rking>
ls
<mars777>
Yea I will check that out
<rking>
(And see all the methods on that array, which you can then call directly since doing a 'cd foo' sets 'self' to 'foo')
<mars777>
thats cool
<mars777>
Thanks!
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<ddfreyne>
What is the p1 = v1 argument supposed to be, exactly?
<ddfreyne>
(it works without the argument)
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<shachaf>
ddfreyne: Looks like it's a directory to interpret the original path at?
<shachaf>
Hmm, not quite.
<ddfreyne>
Ahh, yes
<shachaf>
Hmm, yes.
<ddfreyne>
that was fairly obvious (though entirely undocumented)
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<shachaf>
Well, there's a source link there. :-)
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<ddfreyne>
source code is not the same as documentation (especially not C source code) :P
<shachaf>
Certainly. But for figuring things out it works quite well.
<shachaf>
I don't know much about Ruby's C API and how optional arguments work and all that, but that source code is enough to see that it has something to do with File.realpath
<shachaf>
The documentation for which should tell you the rest. :-)
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<shachaf>
(It's somewhat annoying that so much of the Ruby stdlib is written in C rather than Ruby.)
<ddfreyne>
Yeah, I can read C (although I have little experience with the C API from Ruby either)… but still…
<ddfreyne>
but I am guessing that is the original non-C implementation from MRI before it was C-ized
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<rue>
lib was more or less lifted straight from MRI
<shachaf>
It's sad that it was C-ized.
<rue>
There were a couple things that needed help to work on rbx
<zzak>
ddfreyne: could you file a ticket?
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<jhn>
ryanf: just bobby russell's oh-my-zsh.
<ddfreyne>
zzak: I get confused every time I want to report an issue
<shachaf>
ddfreyne: You should report an issue about that.
<zzak>
ddfreyne: or tell me and i can help
<ryanf>
jhn: I meant like a .pryrc
<ryanf>
I don't know, I personally don't use pry-plus though
<zzak>
ahh i see the link
<ddfreyne>
zzak: Well, basically better documentation for Pathname (at a minimum, give the arguments decent names)
<zzak>
ddfreyne: yeah, i see what you're saying
<zzak>
ddfreyne: good find!
<shachaf>
v1 = p1
<shachaf>
Clearly that's inefficient
<shachaf>
It should say v = p
<zzak>
yeah, its confusing
<ddfreyne>
I’m of the opinion that API documentation should contain the types of arguments and the return types (possibly duck-typed, e.g. something that is Enumerable or something that responds to #read etc)
<ddfreyne>
occasionally I find myself just trying out methods (in irb) to see what it really returns
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<shachaf>
I agree, but then again I use a lot more Haskell than Ruby these days. :-)
<shachaf>
Alternatively: Haskell has uncorrupted my mind. Instead of a mishmash of vaguely defined behavior, I can reduce a lot of the behavior of the function to a type and then not think about it.
<shachaf>
ddfreyne: Is that Ruby documentation with Objective-C-style signatures?
<ddfreyne>
shachaf: Yes, it’s amazing what you can do when you have type information. I did learn Haskell but never did anything with it
<ddfreyne>
shachaf: Hmm, Obj-C style, JavaDoc-style, Doxygen-style, something like that
<shachaf>
I guess Objective C does that weird keyword argument thing like Smalltalk.
<ddfreyne>
yes
<shachaf>
But "- (void) ..." sure looks like it to me.
<ddfreyne>
shachaf: ah, now that you mention it… yes, YARD probably takes some inspiration from there (I find that the design is fairly Apple-ish in a good way)
<ryanf>
oh, yeah, jhn, try commenting out the Pry.prompt line
<ryanf>
that api has changed and people seem to have a lot of trouble with it
<ryanf>
it'll probably be fixed in the next version
<ryanf>
wow, this is a pretty serious pryrc
<shachaf>
ddfreyne: Does it use + for class methods?
<jhn>
Still the same error...
* shachaf
thinks "mishmash" is a good word for describing things involving Ruby in general.
<ddfreyne>
One nice thing about YARD is that you can mark methods/classes/modules as part of a private API
<ddfreyne>
so you can still document it for people to hack on, but you don’t commit yourself to keeping the API the same between minor releases
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<yorickpeterse>
Morning
<Paradox>
≈ chunky
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<zzak>
good morning!
<jds>
Hi
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<judofyr>
morning!
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<jds>
I need to prompt the user to enter some text at the terminal, perhaps using readline. However, rather than starting with an empty prompt, I'd like to provide a default string that they can then backspace over and edit before submitting it
<jds>
Any tips?
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<judofyr>
jds: there's probably some readline-magic you can use. but a simpler solution is just: print "Username [default-string]: "; gets
<judofyr>
but yeah, it's not as fancy :)
<judofyr>
zzak: btw, are you doing any web dev these days?
<zzak>
judofyr: about 50-60 hours a week of it
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<gnufied>
ugh
<judofyr>
brb
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<jds>
re: readline - I ended up abusing Readline.completion_proc, and prompting the user to hit tab
<jds>
... which then fills in the default command
<jds>
Ugly, but kinda works
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<whitequark>
the warning is there just to notify you of a possible problem on your server
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<oddmunds>
yeah, i know.
<oddmunds>
i regretted writing it after i had :P
<oddmunds>
but the bot is sort of caring. because as it is now, every time someone says something while he's (it's a he) churning logs he throws an exception.
<apeiros_>
also make sure you have mod_gzip or similar working
<whitequark>
the finder methods
<charliesome>
ah right
<apeiros_>
charliesome: splitting the index is probably a bad idea
<apeiros_>
since, as said, most db's will then decide upon which index to use and only use one of them
<whitequark>
apeiros_: might it be that the order is wrong?
<charliesome>
ah! i did not know that
<whitequark>
I've never exactly understood the concept of 'selectivity'.
<apeiros_>
charliesome: if they'd use more than one, they'd have to intersect the result, which has a high probability of being slower than a good segmenting index + full scan on the rest
<ddd>
can't wait for this database class (intro to sql etc) to start. need to learn more about how db engines work etc.
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: my knowledge on db's is limited. but I doubt that the order of the index matters. at least I very much hope that it doesn't :)
<whitequark>
apeiros_: it surely does, or at least I heard that numerous times from DBAs
<apeiros_>
whitequark: maybe bad engines?
<ddd>
though i do find it funny that i'm 42 and going back to college. feel like a sequoia tree amongst young Elms going back to college. most of my classmates even in the telecommuting courses are in their early 20s
<whitequark>
apeiros_: mysql it is, and we were tailking about mysql, so...
<apeiros_>
bad engine.
<whitequark>
well, most of them consider mysql a bad engine.
<apeiros_>
;-)
<whitequark>
I've nothing against it
<apeiros_>
(knee jerk, I have no idea)
<apeiros_>
I generally dislike sql
<apeiros_>
I prefer imperative languages over declarative ones.
<apeiros_>
probability that I know better than the db on how to search my data quickly - very high.
<apeiros_>
also omits the overhead of an engine having to do all the guesswork and instrumentation
<charliesome>
with databases it seems like you have to poke it in just the right way to get it to maybe do what you want
<whitequark>
apeiros_: the 'guesswork overhead' is nonexistent
<ddd>
there's been several 'studies' done showing psql to be significantly quicker than mysql, but if MS's "it wasn't tuned right" complaints when their MSSQL failed to beat anyone are any indication, that might have to do with how the engines were configured
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<apeiros_>
whitequark: I doubt that
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<whitequark>
apeiros_: there isn't anything overly complex (as in big-O) or nondeterministic there
<whitequark>
lex, parse, select the index, run.
<apeiros_>
parsing a query, figuring out which query plan has the lowest cost, which index the highest yield…
<apeiros_>
it's a constant cost, so it'll pay off the larger the result set is
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<apeiros_>
but it's still an overhead
<whitequark>
yeah, you might need to iterate over *gasp* four variants, or maybe five
<apeiros_>
whitequark: you haven't had any complex query then…
<apeiros_>
add some joins and you got permutation explosion.
<workmad3>
fight fight fight fight!
<whitequark>
apeiros_: not sure. I'm not proficient in the topic.
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<apeiros_>
neither am I. hence I only "doubt" that the overhead is nonexistent.
<lupine>
the speed of mysql isn't the issue
<apeiros_>
I only have experimental data from a few select cases.
<lupine>
it's the security and safety of the data it holds ^^
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<lupine>
anyway, databases are hard. writing your own is silly
<whitequark>
hm, 338M of irc logs
<workmad3>
lupine: well, that necessitates that the data being held needs to be secure and safe, and no one would actually use mysql if that was the case
<workmad3>
</troll>
<whitequark>
for just 2.3M rows
<whitequark>
well, pretty good, considering that half of that space is consumed by indexes
<lupine>
workmad3, my life would be a lot easier if they did ^^
<lupine>
anyway, if your data isn't structured to any great degree, you might not want to use an SQL database. but writing your own is still likely to be the wrong answer, even then
<whitequark>
use mongodb
<whitequark>
it's webscale
<lupine>
woah, webscale you say?
<lupine>
does it have sharding?
<whitequark>
lupine: exactly
<workmad3>
use /dev/null it's ROFLscale
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<ddd>
omg, mongodb syntax is disgusting
<whitequark>
ddd: is there anything in mongodb that isn't disgusting?
<ddd>
i'd need several cups of coffee to think about that. nothing comes immediately to mind :)
<lupine>
I'm sure it meets *some* use cases perfectly well
* lupine
has only played with it a bit
<whitequark>
>"a global lock in V8 nicely complements the global lock in the DB"
<lupine>
oO
<lzhz>
whitequark: the name? oh wait..
<charliesome>
i love mongodb injection
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<charliesome>
people think "oh i don't use sql, i'm safe from sql injection", then they stick stuff from rails' params hash straight into a mongo query
<workmad3>
charliesome: well, they're right, they are safe from sql injection
<whitequark>
lupine: consider the fact that with default settings, mongo returns _before_ the data is actually written to disk
<whitequark>
to speak of safety.
<lupine>
well, that's sane for some use cases, so as long as it's clearly documented that's fine
<whitequark>
it also has a nasty habit of basically leaving memory management up to linux by using mmapped files, which in reality means that you need a separate (virtual) machine for mongo
<whitequark>
etc etc
* lupine
glances at his NBD server using mmap
<lupine>
we need to add some madvise() calls
<lupine>
other than that, it's fine
<whitequark>
I mean, the idea isn't that bad, but if you have a problem and think that you'd use mongo, then you have two problems
<andrewvos>
whitequark: Mongo is nice. Stop hating
<lupine>
someone should fork it, replace "json" with "xml" and "js" with "bpel"
<andrewvos>
I've had no problem with it
<lupine>
then it'll be enterprise ^^
<rohit>
andrewvos, You not having a problem with it doesn't imply it doesn't have problems. :)
<ddd>
all your xml are belong to us!
<whitequark>
lupine: >BPEL is an orchestration language, not a choreography language
<whitequark>
what
<andrewvos>
Find something better to hate on. Have you ever used SparQL?
<lupine>
honestly, you don't want to know
<andrewvos>
rohit: It does imply that it doesn't have a problem. It has served me incredibly well.
<lupine>
imagine a procedural programming language where all the keywords are surrounded by <>
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<madsen>
Quick question (gotta go again in a few minutes). Is TkTable supposed to work out of the box on Windows? Because mine isn't and I can't seem to find anything about it anywhere.
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