kentonv changed the topic of #sandstorm to: Welcome to #sandstorm: home of all things sandstorm.io. Say hi! | Have a question but no one is here? Try asking in the discussion group: https://groups.google.com/group/sandstorm-dev
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<isd> I mean, frankly I don't want notifications from desktop apps either, really. At most I want the status bar icon or whatever to change so if I happen to glance over at it I know there's something that's happened, if it is a good time to look
<JacobWeisz[m]> That's basically what I want, yeah
<isd> Maybe it makes more sense if you primarily use your computer for commnication? As someone who does creative work on a computer though, it's just excessively disruptive.
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<JacobWeisz[m]> I don't think so. If communication is your main goal, you'd have your browser up. I mean, in IT I have a screen dedicated to email.
<isd> I'm probably trying to be too charitable. Sometimes stuff is just bad.
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<rjBadger[m]> so i had sandstorm on a server using sandcats.io. I have installed nginx on that server for another service. Is it possible to keep using sandstorm and sandcats.io on the same machine with an nginx server?
<isd> You could use sniproxy. I don't know of a way to put a sandcats domain behind something like nginx
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<JacobWeisz[m]> Sometimes the Internet is just the worst.
<JacobWeisz[m]> Apparently the CMS I set up on sandstormcommunity.org can be used to spam/annoy users somehow with its user registration process. It had over 4,000 accounts created on it.
<JacobWeisz[m]> Guess this is why people just use WordPress... Anyways, I have nuked the entire account from orbit.
<simpson> JacobWeisz[m]: Congrats, you've experienced being a Confused Deputy!
<isd> Yeah, we weren't really using it.
<isd> Also, this is why the sandstorm wordpress port is set up the way it is.
<JacobWeisz[m]> I am used to just leaving old sites floating about (usually isn't a problem). But I guess I should remember to at least shut off user registration.
<simpson> JacobWeisz[m]: http://www.cap-lore.com/CapTheory/ConfusedDeputy.html if you haven't read it before. Classic story from capability theory.
<JacobWeisz[m]> From time to time I've thought about trying to migrate my older websites into Sandstorm hosting somehow. A generic LAMP Stack app that has the usual tools for uploading files and importing SQL dumps would make that pretty easy.
<JacobWeisz[m]> A lot of them I loathe to lose but wouldn't care if they had the Sandstorm frame around them and such.
<JacobWeisz[m]> A way to web publish the live grain though (standalone grains or whatever it was) would be perfect though.
<abliss> what do you mean "publish the live grain" ?
<JacobWeisz[m]> So web publishing publishes a static site such that you can point a DNS entry at it.
<JacobWeisz[m]> There's an undocumented feature for publishing an actual running grain, where the Sandstorm iframe is basically fullscreened so you don't see the Sandstorm UI.
<abliss> how does that work? i thought a new ui-* subdomain was generated for each session?
<isd> Undocumented + no ui (requires fiddling with the DB).
<abliss> teach me the seekrit?
<abliss> does it make a stable ui-* domain?
<JacobWeisz[m]> Search the Sandstorm codebase for "standalone" and ignore anything about Selenium.
<abliss> dang. looks like, even if i pop the riot.im irame out into its own chrome tab, notifications won't work because they're using a deprecated API that's unimplemented on Android Chrome. https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29774836/failed-to-construct-notification-illegal-constructor
<abliss> ugh, strike that, the linked page says 'non-persistent notifications' are 'on their way to being deprecated' but in the end whatwg decided to keep them on desktop; yet the chrome android devs still refuse to implement it. https://github.com/whatwg/notifications/issues/26
<abliss> and since the riot.im app devs are actively mobile-hostile (like so many web devs, they check the user-agent and try to force you to use the mobile app instead. which means i have to go click 'use desktop mode' to spoof a desktop UA string in order to get it to work), they probably won't be sympathetic to using the service worker notification api instead. :(
<abliss> maybe it really is worthwhile to consider writing a Sandstorm client app for Android. I guess it could start from the android chromium codebase, and then start reversing the well-intentioned decisions by the web devs for reasons that don't apply to us.
<abliss> (iphone too i guess.)
<JacobWeisz[m]> How many issues do we have specifically with mobile browsers?
<abliss> good q. i'll start a wiki page to track them
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<JacobWeisz[m]> IMHO always base on Firefox to avoid monoculture to adtech companies.
<JacobWeisz[m]> With regards to iOS, I am doubtful most peeves with the mobile browsers could be addressed by an app since you essentially must use Safari. Depends where those choices were implemented, I suppose.
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<JacobWeisz[m]> But Firefox and Chrome on iOS are both effectively branding/account/sync wrappers around Safari.
<abliss> (i could quibble with your characterization of Mozilla as not an adtech company, but today I won't :)
<abliss> i started brainstorming at https://github.com/sandstorm-io/sandstorm/wiki/Browser-Gripes ; feel free to contribute
<JacobWeisz[m]> I'd argue Mozilla is definitely subservient to the adtech company, but still better than dealing with the adtech company direct.
<JacobWeisz[m]> I am most disappointed in Microsoft though, for literally just handing over the keys to the kingdom to Google. We had like three browser engines out there.
<isd> I feel like if the media streams and whatnot were Transferrable via postMessage, it might actually be a good thing apps can't request them, because we could just have sandstorm do it and then pass them on, giving us more control.
<abliss> I have to create the standaloneDomains collection manually?
<isd> I haven't looked at how standalone grains works really.
<JacobWeisz[m]> Wouldn't surprise me, it'd be kinda silly to populate it for everyone if nobody but the Sandstorm team was using it.
<abliss> oh, i think in mongo an empty collection is the same as no collection. or it creates on first insert.
<abliss> seems to be working! nifty!
<JacobWeisz[m]> :O Like... how easy is it?
<abliss> super easy once i figured out how :)
<JacobWeisz[m]> Would you consider documenting it?
<abliss> sure, unless it's undocumented for some reason? kentonv would you object to me documenting how to create a standalone grain in a wiki page?
<isd> Yeah, iirc mongo doesn't really have a notion of "creating" a collection.
<JacobWeisz[m]> Honestly, I'd like a Docs document for it at some point. Kenton probably would want an adequate disclaimer that using it is not recommended, may remove some of the security benefits of using Sandstorm, etc.
<isd> I think the reason a UI hasn't been built out is that folks were worried about people going overboard with it and just using it to ignore the sandstorm model entirely.
<kentonv> I have a lot of mixed feelings about the standalone grains feature, but I'm OK with it being documented.
<isd> There are questions about usability and about the model that haven't been sorted out.
<JacobWeisz[m]> Probably that its not at all a supported feature and it might break? Sandstorm's use of it was the feature key vendor app so nobody is going to notice if it breaks.
<isd> Yeah, I don't think anybody's going to seriously abuse this if there's a wiki page with instructions on how to manually tweak your database...
<JacobWeisz[m]> I would attach all the above disclaimers on said wiki page though.
<isd> I would just say make the situation with the feature clear on the page, so nobody takes this as a "this is a supported feature"
<abliss> afk 30min, will write the wiki when i get back
<JacobWeisz[m]> I do feel like over all the years I've read feedback about Sandstorm, it's one of the few top issues people have, wanting to pin grains to specific subdomain names. So I do feel like someday we need a good solution for it, even if it's not Sandstorm at its best.
<JacobWeisz[m]> (I am very excited though that #3299 probably addresses one of the other biggest issues with Sandstorm, which is the difficulty with using Let's Encrypt and using your own HTTPS certs and everything without having to set up external components.)
<isd> Yeah, I agree at some point we need a story for public-facing apps.
<isd> ...but I also don't want to rush into a bad solution to an important problem.
<JacobWeisz[m]> That's definitely fair.
* isd goes back to mucking with powerbox & web publishing
<isd> Ug, brain is just moving like molasses today
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<abliss> ah, it wasn't clear to me before, but there's still an iframe wrapping the session-specific ui-* subdomain. You can't use this for exposing public apis.
<isd> Right, it's just for making it less weird from a ux perspective.