<azonenberg>
Initial impressions: first, solvespace doesnt let you model flexible assemblies so i had to guesstimate a bit on how it would curve
<azonenberg>
I think in the vertical axis i made the notches too large
<azonenberg>
it allows a very tight bend radius but i fear with repeated flexing it might not survive
<azonenberg>
Surface finish isn't great, it's made by SLS and there is a visible powdery surface texture. but i guess unless I can find a way to do cast silicone economically this is my best option for custom rubbery materials
<azonenberg>
In the horizontal plane, i'm pretty happy. It bends but not too much, i'm not worried about damaging the probe, and it doesnt feel like it will break if you look at it sideways
<azonenberg>
the general feel is good
<azonenberg>
So i think the next step will be waiting until the probe PCB comes in, testing the combination a bit on a real board
<azonenberg>
then if electrical perfomance is good preparing for a run at a real fab with impedance control and stiffeners
<azonenberg>
and then fine tuning mechanical design
<azonenberg>
so far changes to make are extending the SMA end of the shell so the rubber encompasses the SMA body a bit (gives you something to grab onto and provides less area to short against)
<azonenberg>
making the whole length a bit longer to cover more of the flex pcb
<azonenberg>
and then probably making the notches for vertical bending a little smaller so it provides more support to the board on tighter bends
<azonenberg>
Until the pcb comes in i cant comment on snugness of fit, difficulty of putting the board in it, etfc
* azonenberg
throws shell in ultrasonic cleaner to see what that does to the barely-attached powder on the surface
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<azonenberg>
also, assembled the first MEAD pod fully with the new enclosure
<azonenberg>
there's a minor clearance issue, the anode pin of the LED backlight brushes up against the 3V3 strap jumper for BOOT0
<azonenberg>
it barely touches and some kapton tape fixes it
<azonenberg>
then the screws being too long i already knew about
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<azonenberg>
Any feedback before i review all my other probes in the same general manner?
<lain>
will look in a bit
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<kc8apf>
huh. My employer just got a free 3 month subscription to LeCroy's SI Academy.
<azonenberg>
kc8apf: interesting, do you actually do high speed digital work there or what?
<kc8apf>
I don't but we are designing a 100Gbps backplane....
<kc8apf>
and a corresponding 64 port switch
<azonenberg>
Lol, i see
<azonenberg>
Makes sense then
<azonenberg>
Are you a LeCroy shop there as far as scopes go? or just using it because it's a convenient training resource
<kc8apf>
we have zero equipment currently
<kc8apf>
our CM has some gear but not enough
<kc8apf>
we ended up getting in touch with Eric Bogatin about SI consulting
<kc8apf>
so, we kinda ended up with his training resources
<azonenberg>
...oh
<azonenberg>
lol
<kc8apf>
interestingly, he mostly recommends Keysight
<azonenberg>
Lol
<azonenberg>
The LabMaster line seems to have stagnated
<azonenberg>
they havent had a new release in some time
<azonenberg>
lecroy in general seems to have kinda lost their way a bit
<azonenberg>
Their midrange gear is solid and if you go secondhand can be had for good prices
<azonenberg>
but i'm not so sure about the future
<kc8apf>
WaveMaster might work for our PCIe gen 4 needs
<azonenberg>
Don't get me wrong, it's not bad hardware. It jsut seems like their R&D isn't as on point as some of the other folks
<kc8apf>
that's the impression I got
<kc8apf>
but I know nothing about high speed stuff
<azonenberg>
All of LeCroy's hardware is solid, it does what it says and it does it well
<azonenberg>
But the pace of innovation i see is slower than tek
<azonenberg>
i havent looked at keysight's recent offerings enough to comment there
<azonenberg>
If you get a WaveMaster with sufficient bandwidth i think it will work very well for PCIe SI testing
<azonenberg>
however, you might want to get a SDA rather than a WaveMaster
<azonenberg>
they're all the same platform but the SDAs are specifically built for serdes analysis and include a bunch of software standard, probably at better prices than buying it and adding to a WaveMaster
<wbraun>
I guess not all PMK products are a success. Is this just going to be you testing the entire PMK product line? 🤣
<wbraun>
I dont think anyone else makes 500MHz+ 2.5mm probes?
<azonenberg>
wbraun: Not that i know of
<azonenberg>
next in line is going to be probably the ZS1500 which is also a PMK product, lol. But it's a LeCroy custom version with ProBus interface
<azonenberg>
Then the PicoConnect 921 which appears to be a Pico in house design
<azonenberg>
after those, I'm going to do the two LeCroy active probes i'm buying but it might be a while as i havent even paid for them yet
<azonenberg>
i'm working my way through the process but one of them i'm holding off until next credit card statement
<azonenberg>
and the other one i'm waiting on them to send me the invoice for, i need to work out an RMA as part of the process
<azonenberg>
tl;dr i ordered a WaveLink adapter from an ebay seller in Tel Aviv, once it comes in I'm going to mail it to LeCroy and they're going to calibrate the probe they're selling me (which didn't come with a cable) to that adapter and ship it out
<wbraun>
adapter? whats the adaptor do where it needs to be calibrated to the probe? Is it not just some connector / sidechannel interface?
<wbraun>
I still need to work on reverse engineer the tekvpi interface because I got the TDP1000 probe for dirt cheap
<wbraun>
but otoh, it works in the scope in my groups lab and my scope only goes to 300MHz, so its not a priority
<azonenberg>
wbraun: the adapter is just a passive cable that brings RF + 6 pin power/control (presence detect, +/- 12V, power ground, I2C) to the amplifier
<azonenberg>
but i guess the response of the cables varies or something
<azonenberg>
For >6 GHz WaveLink stuff, amplifiers need to be individually matched and calibrated to a specific cable
<azonenberg>
and i think they store the combined system response in an eeprom on the amplifier or something
<azonenberg>
for <= 6 GHz stuff cables are considered interchangeable
<azonenberg>
i requested and am paying $275 extra for a cal of this specific cable to my amp since it's from ebay and i want to be sure it's good
<wbraun>
oh, I guess if its only $275, thats not bad
<azonenberg>
i mean its a lot considering i only paid $500 for the cable :p but it's peace of mind and one less thing i need to worry about when doing precise measurements
<wbraun>
the TDP1000 I bought for only $225 as an auction. Normally they sell on ebay for ~$1.5k and $4.7k new. I am still figuring out what is wrong with it
<azonenberg>
the other one the cable and amp are coming direct from lecroy as factory refurbs (paired in a kit as a single inventory item) so i trust that they're good
<Degi>
Huh
<LeoBodnar>
awesome, thanks for the link, azonenberg. I know the guys who run Picotech. They use the pulsers for some in-house testing.
<azonenberg>
LeoBodnar: oh awesome
<Degi>
What ICs do the pulsers use?
<wbraun>
as far as I can tell, the only issue is that the input connector receptical is slightly damaged
<azonenberg>
LeoBodnar: Yeah i love the pulser, i would love if you made one that was more specialized for this purpose
<wbraun>
Pulsers?
<azonenberg>
i.e. a short length of matched 50 ohm line with a termination at the end
<azonenberg>
and a pulse gen at the other
<LeoBodnar>
some MAX laser driver, can't remember exact P/N but there are just a few
<azonenberg>
so you could land a probe on it
<LeoBodnar>
pulser is due redesign after we have run out of this batch in about half a year
<LeoBodnar>
it needs an enclosure, variable pulse rate, etc
<azonenberg>
Feature request: serial number on a printed label for traceability purposes
<azonenberg>
on the exterior
<azonenberg>
rather than only electronically readable
<LeoBodnar>
thanks, noted
<LeoBodnar>
I guess it goes into env that need traceability often
<azonenberg>
i'm actually going to be sending mine out to Micro Precision soon to get an official cal cert
<LeoBodnar>
azonenberg: quick question - are you still in love with your LeCroy? I am thinking about a new scope
<azonenberg>
LeoBodnar: Which LeCroy? you gotta be more specific
<Degi>
Huh, these LD drivers are pretty neat.
<azonenberg>
I have owned three and currently own two, i sold the lowest end (WaveSurfer 3034) to $dayjob
* LeoBodnar
has 3 LeCroys and uses them regularly
<azonenberg>
my current fleet is a WaveRunner 8404M-MS and a HDO9204
<LeoBodnar>
which one would you buy if you can only get one?
<azonenberg>
depends, do i have unlimited budget? :P
<LeoBodnar>
lol say $10k
<azonenberg>
if so i would probably buy a SDA or WaveMaster. They're not quite as fast as the LabMaster's but have more general purpose utility
<azonenberg>
And hmm $10K is a bit on the low side
<azonenberg>
I got my HDO9204 for about $12K
<azonenberg>
actually sorry i have owned four LeCroy's not three
<LeoBodnar>
I need speed sometimes but it's often just daily grind with I2C SPI I2S and everything below 1GHz
<azonenberg>
I also had a WaveRunner 8104-MS which I traded in to get the 8404
<azonenberg>
and got a $7K tradein credit for it
<azonenberg>
actually, i don't think it's sold yet
<azonenberg>
i still saw it on the inventory list
<azonenberg>
if you want my old scope i can put you in touch with LeCroy's secondhand sales guy
<azonenberg>
1 GHz, 20 Gsps on 4 channels or 40 Gsps on 2 channels, plus 16 channel LA
<azonenberg>
they were asking something on the order of $7K for it
<azonenberg>
it's been well cared for in my lab and went through a full factory refurb once i sent it back
<LeoBodnar>
I am so shallow, I like the probes with lit up tips :D
<azonenberg>
Their refurbs come with the same 3-year warranty as a new scope
<LeoBodnar>
I have a few HFP3500s
<azonenberg>
actually sorry i misquoted sample rate
<azonenberg>
the 8104 is 10 Gsps on 4ch or 20 Gsps on 2
<azonenberg>
then 200 Gsps in equivalent time mode
<LeoBodnar>
cheers, let me go through the range over the w/e
<azonenberg>
Both of my current scopes were secondhand, the HDO9204 is retired from TRS-RenTelCo and the WaveRunner 8404M-MS was a LeCroy factory refurb
<azonenberg>
Do you want me to hook you up with their refurb sales guy? they've got other models available too
<LeoBodnar>
yes please, I guess I can contact hime when I am ready? leo@leobodnar.com
<azonenberg>
Yeah. Also he has an email list you can ask to be put on
<azonenberg>
every week or two he sends out an excel file with a list of current refurb inventory including serial numbers and everything
<azonenberg>
you have to ask him for pricing but he gives it out readily
<azonenberg>
you can also ask him if you have your eyes on a specific model because sometimes they have old sales demo units that arent currently for sale, but they could be persuaded to part with if a buyer came around
<LeoBodnar>
thanks, Andrew
<azonenberg>
What LeCroy scopes do you have now, out of curiosity?
<azonenberg>
Probe wise, i currently have the eight PP022/PP023 probes that they came with, four of the Pico TA061s I wrote the rather critical review on
<azonenberg>
then one ZS1500 1.5 GHz active single-ended probe (my next review coming up)
<azonenberg>
and one PicoConnect 921 6 GHz transmission line probe, my current fastest probe
<azonenberg>
i am also in the process of buying two 4 GHz active differential probes (D400A-AT-PB2 and D420) from Jon, the LeCroy refurb sales guy i mentioned
<monochroma>
andrew's crack^Wscope dealer
<azonenberg>
i mean when he comes cruising down the block it's hard for me to say no...
<Degi>
Oh, that is what ctrl W is for
<LeoBodnar>
they are all old gen - WP7300A and several DDA-125s - I used to repair them and give away
<azonenberg>
Oh cool
<azonenberg>
Have you tried glscopeclient with them yet?
<azonenberg>
would be cool to add them to the supported list if it works
<azonenberg>
I know the DDA-5005A works, monochroma and lain have... two i think?
<azonenberg>
not sure we've tested anything older
<azonenberg>
anything newer than the windows 2000 era from lecroy should work out of the box
<azonenberg>
i've tested against WaveSurfer 3000, WaveRunner 8000, HDO9000 in hardware
<Degi>
Huh, DDA stands for disk drive analyzer
<monochroma>
the dda-5005 is win2k and the 5005a is xp embedded, both work well
<LeoBodnar>
7300A will probably work, it has XP on it
<LeoBodnar>
afk, work
<azonenberg>
i've also tested in simulation against HDO4000A, HDO6000A, MDA800, WaveRunner 8000HD, WaveRunner 9000, WavePro HD, WaveMaster 8Zi, and LabMaster 10Zi-A
<azonenberg>
but have not had hardware for any of those to confirm
<azonenberg>
(MAUI Studio has an imperfect-but-decent emulator)
<monochroma>
azonenberg: what's the major imperfection in the emulation?
<azonenberg>
well to start it only generates a fixed frequency sinewave
<azonenberg>
it's more, you're talking to MAUI fine but the portion that pretends to be different instruments is stubbed out for the most part
<azonenberg>
i found at least one bug in the emulated LabMaster giving incorrect waveforms in 20/40 Gsps mode
<azonenberg>
Studio is intended to be a "hey, let's help these poor engineers get work done while they're stuck at home during covid"
<azonenberg>
so offline file analysis is the main target
<azonenberg>
it's not meant to be an R&D quality simulator for developing apps that interface with lecroy hardware
<azonenberg>
that said i did find a few small glscopeclient bugs with it
<monochroma>
is it a new product? i thought they had had it for a while
<azonenberg>
I downloaded it the day it came out
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
because i wanted to trial all of the software options it came with and see how mine stacked up
<azonenberg>
They expire at the end of 2020 so i want to at least grab some screenshots and notes of the usb/pcie etc decodes before they go bye-bye
<azonenberg>
i know i've complained about the pico probe before
<azonenberg>
but... yeah it's really that bad
<NeroTHz>
writing seems fine. it was good enough that I stopped paying attention to it and simply started reading the articles halfway though
<NeroTHz>
so
<azonenberg>
Lol that's a good thing. I was mostly looking for comments on the lab side of things though
<azonenberg>
especially on the TA061 since it was so bad :p
<azonenberg>
i feel like i gave it a fair assessment though
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<azonenberg>
Also i machined down some of my 4-40 x 1/2" screws to 3/8" and got good results on the front of the enclosure holding down the board. Back side still has to be shimmed with a washer for the moment so i'll make the holes deeper next time around
<azonenberg>
screws holding the top of the case on are currently shimmed with washers too, i need to make those drills deeper
<azonenberg>
but the board fits the case beautifully. Only complaint is the lack of a nice lexan overlay to protect the LCD but that wont need any changes to the enclosure itself
<azonenberg>
gonna play around a bit and see how the MMCX's etc fit but i think i have a winner now design wise
<azonenberg>
(forgot to say this is for MEAD)
<electronic_eel>
azonenberg: about the xdevs review of the pp023: one of the "banner specs" for a passive probe usually is the capacitative loading of the dut
<azonenberg>
ah yes, i'll add that to the next one and see if i can get them to edit the article to add that
<electronic_eel>
do you have an easy way to measure this and include it in the review?
<electronic_eel>
for example with the vna?
<azonenberg>
I dont have full CMS access or anything, i send them markdown files
<azonenberg>
I do not. The VNA doesnt directly give you capacitance
<azonenberg>
I can quote the datasheet capacitance
<azonenberg>
but measuring caps as low as this with a DMM can be tricky
<electronic_eel>
exactly, I don't think a dmm measurement would suffice
<azonenberg>
while my R&S meter is capable of doing single pF resolution, parasitics in the cables generally means you have a hard time measuring anything that accurately
<electronic_eel>
if you do a lowish freq cap measurement in this region, I think a full blown RLC meter with a 4 wire jig is necessary
<azonenberg>
Yes
<azonenberg>
which i do not have
<azonenberg>
Realistically, though, capacitance is of no value to me as a user of the probe
<azonenberg>
I want to know the impact on the transmitted signal and on the DUT
<azonenberg>
So S-parameters make a lot more sense
<azonenberg>
as well as time domain plots of pulses going through / flying by the probe
<azonenberg>
basically if i have a clean sharp pulse on the board then put the probe across it how bad does it go?
<azonenberg>
you can see i did that on the pico probe, i will probably do that on the PP022 passive probe when i do that later on
<azonenberg>
and all of the active probes etc
<azonenberg>
Probably using the same 8b10b test pattern to keep the playing field level
<electronic_eel>
I did not read the ta061 review yet
<azonenberg>
but yes that is what the vna s11 measurement was intended to convey
<azonenberg>
ideally you want a flat line meaning uniform DC loading across all frequencies
<azonenberg>
and you want it as close to 0 dB (100% reflection off the probe) as possible
<azonenberg>
That link was added by the editor, i'll poke him
<azonenberg>
The link to the waverunner 8000 also goes to the rackmount headless version
<azonenberg>
i already requested a correction for that
<monochroma>
headless scope best scope
<miek>
does it even make sense to put a single capacitance number on it? surely it looks different across the frequency range anyway
<azonenberg>
miek: the capacitance they quote is at DC i think. and that's why I prefer the s-parameter approach
<azonenberg>
S11 of a probe is a useful measurement you can do something with
<azonenberg>
as is time domain step response
<azonenberg>
also s-parameters of probes are not typically published in datasheets, so this is a valuable piece of information for a current/prospective user
<azonenberg>
i don't even know what i'd *do* with a capacitance number on a probe lol
<electronic_eel>
azonenberg: why did you do the scope screenshots directly from the scope and not from glscopeclient?
<azonenberg>
electronic_eel: it's not yet a well recognized enough tool for me to use it for this kind of purpose
<azonenberg>
also more importantly glscopeclient doesnt yet support memory traces
<azonenberg>
which is a key capability for comparing loaded vs unloaded signals like this
<azonenberg>
(i filed a ticket after collecting the data)
<electronic_eel>
ah, no memory traces. yes, that is a very valid reason
<azonenberg>
it wasnt something i had ever needed
<azonenberg>
but for this particular analysis it's the exact right tool
<electronic_eel>
I use them often, although I hate how they are implemented on my rigol
<azonenberg>
I am not thrilled with lecroy's implementation, like the fact that you can't zoom them properly
<azonenberg>
you have to make a separate memory trace of the zoom function
<azonenberg>
lecroy basically treats zoom(x) as a math function
<azonenberg>
its horribly kludgy and i dont like it
<azonenberg>
the scopehal approach of decoupling record length from display bounds makes a lot more sense
<electronic_eel>
not being able to properly zoom them is one of my gripes with the rigol version
<azonenberg>
having separate zoom functions isn't even a concept that makes sense
<azonenberg>
you have one dataset
<azonenberg>
and you can display it at any size youwant
<electronic_eel>
please also allow to shift them by an arbitrary amount of time or voltage
<azonenberg>
So, there is a DC offset filter already
<azonenberg>
I dont like the idea of just silently shifting traces up and down
<azonenberg>
If you want to explicitly create a waveform that is "memory 1 + 1.902V" that's fine
<azonenberg>
But i want a given Y coordinate on a plot to always be the same voltage
<electronic_eel>
ok, a dedicated dc offset is a good way of doing this
<azonenberg>
as far as time goes, the same thing
<azonenberg>
i dont remember if i implemented it or if its a pending ticket
<azonenberg>
but there is/will be a "deskew" filter that shifts a waveform by an arbitrary offset in time
<azonenberg>
this can of course be done live to waveform data coming off the scope if there's no hardware based deskew or you can't use it for some reason
<electronic_eel>
do you have to enter the voltages, hit enter, and then see the result - or can you tweak it with the mouse wheel or similar until it matches?
<azonenberg>
as of now, manual typing. We can worry about making the UI nicer later
<azonenberg>
the other thing that still has to happen is support for more than one analog waveform in a single WaveformArea
<azonenberg>
right now you can have exactly one analog waveform plus arbitrarily many digital/protocol overlays in a WaveformArea
<electronic_eel>
ah, yes they should be in the same area with different colors so that the differences become more obvious
<azonenberg>
for stuff like differential pairs it makes sense to display two channels stacked sometimes
<azonenberg>
I mean they're already color coded
<azonenberg>
you just cant stack them
<azonenberg>
tek mso5/6 supports both options
<azonenberg>
which is the right way IMO
<electronic_eel>
yes. can't you do both on your lecroys too?
<azonenberg>
Not... exactly
<azonenberg>
There are six possible display options
<azonenberg>
"single grid", which is one plot
<azonenberg>
"dual grid" which is two equal sized plots stacked on top of each other
<azonenberg>
"tandem grid" which is two equal sized plots side by side
<azonenberg>
"quad grid" which is four equal sized plots stacked on top
<azonenberg>
"quattro grid" which is a 2x2 tile
<azonenberg>
and "octal grid" which is two columns of 4 plots
<azonenberg>
You can move waveforms, zooms, math functions, etc freely from one grid to another
<azonenberg>
but you cannot resize grids or have the complex window management we support, like two small plots above one big one
<electronic_eel>
hmm, why do they do this fixed grid stuff when the scope is running windows in the end?
<azonenberg>
That's a very good question. I've made requests to change this
<azonenberg>
also if you have the "Q-Scape" option - no idea what it costs, you can create tabbed waveform views that each contain any of those six layout styles
<azonenberg>
and i think you can display either one tab fullscreen or two tabs side by side
<azonenberg>
but in the latter case i dont think they are resizeable
<azonenberg>
and at least with serdes analysis the tabs seem to mirror each others' layout
<azonenberg>
you cant freely reconfigure tabsd individually
<azonenberg>
it's a very limiting window model that i don't like. it's probably my single biggest gripe about lecroy stuff
<azonenberg>
also i just discovered a weird settings menu that enables a few more display options... "triple" is two stacked at left and one at right, then "hex", "twelve", and "sixteen"
<electronic_eel>
I think you better have the "scopehal" option - it is free (as in speech and beer) and you can arrange the windows the way you want, also use a much larger screen
<azonenberg>
but in all cases you have equal sized plots in a regular grid
<azonenberg>
Lol
<azonenberg>
i mean with lecroy you can use larger screens. either by external monitors plugged in or by RDPing in
<azonenberg>
i do that pretty often, among other things because the builtin scope display is only 720p
<azonenberg>
but yes it's not nearly as nice as glscopeclient's window management
<electronic_eel>
does rdp work in practice for this? isn't the local console completely logged off?
<azonenberg>
Yes
<azonenberg>
well
<azonenberg>
it's not logged off but it's locked
<azonenberg>
when you close rdp you have to type your local account password in on the scope touchscreen
<azonenberg>
and you get back to where you were
<azonenberg>
but normally if i rdp i'm in the other room at my desk
<electronic_eel>
ok, locked. but still annoying
<azonenberg>
yes it is
<electronic_eel>
if you just need to reposition the probes and then go back to the other room for analyzing?
<electronic_eel>
or if your colleague has to reposition the probes because you are on another continent?
<azonenberg>
yeah well thats one of the reasons scopehal is nice :p
<electronic_eel>
wasn't there someone here in the channel who worked at lecroy and wanted to include a faster way to grab data off the scope?
<azonenberg>
Was, past tense
<azonenberg>
the budget got tight when covid hit and a lot of folks got laid off
<azonenberg>
him included
<electronic_eel>
damn
<azonenberg>
the code is internal to lecroy and was slated for public release on their github
<azonenberg>
but i dont know if it ever happened
<azonenberg>
So basically for the foreseeable future, it doesnt exist
<electronic_eel>
they axed a lot of positions in their r&d? isn't that usually something you only do as a last resort thing? because finding capable people and building functioning teams out of them is time consuming and hard
<azonenberg>
He was in testing, not R&D. But the impression i've got is that their R&D has stagnated a bit
<azonenberg>
they havent pushed out anything really impressive since the 100 GHz LabMaster
<azonenberg>
they introduced the 8 channel waverunner 8000hd series, and the low end wavesurfer 4000hd which is the lowest end 12 bit scope i can think of off the top of my head
<azonenberg>
the hardware is still good but it's not as cutting edge as it was
<electronic_eel>
I think I have seen a scope from them with a massive amount of channels (was it 12 or 16 or something) in a video some time ago
<azonenberg>
They can combine two 8-channel scopes to give you 16 total
<electronic_eel>
don't remember which series
<azonenberg>
And the LabMaster platform scales up to 80 channels
<electronic_eel>
ah, maybe labmaster then
<azonenberg>
iirc it's pcie as the interconnect fabric, each acquisition module gets a... 10 GHz? refclk and pcie to the master control module
<monochroma>
wonder if they over extended themselves in the labmaster development, and didn't sell enough units
<azonenberg>
i actually dont see the 100 GHz model listed on the website anymore. although they still claim 100 GHz bandwidth on the top level product page
<azonenberg>
the 100G acquisition module doesn't show up
<azonenberg>
not sure if special order or no longer available
<electronic_eel>
no longer available would be a shame
<azonenberg>
but yeah i do have concerns for their future long term
<azonenberg>
i do not, however, have concerns about buying used hardware
<azonenberg>
the hardware is still good and Teledyne is a big enough company even if they shut down the scope division entirely they'll be able to honor warranties etc
<azonenberg>
But i feel like in 5 years they will probably be quite a bit behind keysight and tek
<azonenberg>
unless they have some major new models coming out soon
<azonenberg>
the waverunner 9000 series which recently came out, for example, looks like basically a waverunner 8000 acquisition board with a slightly taller and skinnier control panel and a 15" instead of a 13" display
<azonenberg>
and maybe a slightly nicer PC mobo
<electronic_eel>
even the medium size models are full of asic these days. and asic development is $$$. so I think a lot revolves about asic generations, reusing them for new models or releasing a new asic generation and a line of scopes using them
<azonenberg>
It's not a bad scope but it's also not the kind of major innovation the tek mso5/6 were
<azonenberg>
So while they're pretty competitive *now* i think in 5 years they will be kinda meh unless there is significant innovation
<electronic_eel>
yeah, maybe they are nearly finished releasing a new asic generation and can release scopes with competetive features based on them soon
<azonenberg>
That's my hope
<azonenberg>
But in this economy it might be delayed or even canceled
<azonenberg>
That's something R&S at least has going for them
<azonenberg>
being mostly europe based, and with covid a bit more under control there, i think they're less affected
<electronic_eel>
hmm, doesn't that depend more on where your customers are?
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<azonenberg>
That i'm not sure about
<azonenberg>
from what insiders tell me the test equipment indusitry in general got hit hard
<azonenberg>
lots of people postponed/canceled upgrades
<electronic_eel>
yeah, upgrades is something you can often postpone without affecting work too much. so something you can save costs on quick
<azonenberg>
Yeah
<azonenberg>
i dont have numbers for how much the sector revenue shrunk but i imagine it was a double digit percentage
<azonenberg>
which hurts no matter how good your financesare
<electronic_eel>
and the test equipment industry is usually unit sales based, and not subscription, so you can easily delay
<azonenberg>
Correct
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