#bitcoin-wizards on 2015-11-04 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2015-10-30 00:53 sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja

00:00 <bramc> phantomcircuit, I could also make it be fixed at hash-size strings. That's never less efficient, just requires the caller do the hashing, which it may have done already.

00:00 <phantomcircuit> bramc, one of the advantages of using a patricia treat is compact proof of exclusion, if you're not merging the prefixes that probably doesn't work

00:02 <bramc> hmm, I'll have to think about that. I think the proofs of exclusion are short anyway

00:03 <bramc> Yeah, they're short anyway: As long as everything is in order, you just need to trace down to two consecutive things for a proof of exclusion

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00:08 <bramc> So the longest a proof of exclusion could be is twice the depth, for something which is between the high point of the low branch and the low point of the high branch

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00:20 <phantomcircuit> bramc, hmm yeah that's true

00:20 <phantomcircuit> not optimally compact but still compact enough for basically any applicaiton

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01:27 <bitcoin-wizards2> adam3us1: Hi, are you adam back?

01:28 <dEBRUYNE__> He is

01:28 <bitcoin-wizards2> thanks dEBRUYNE__

01:28 <bitcoin-wizards2> is he available?

01:28 <bitcoin-wizards2> we agreed to speak a while back

01:28 <dEBRUYNE__> Not sure, better to ask him yourself

01:29 <bitcoin-wizards2> how do you PM here?

01:29 <bitcoin-wizards2> nevermind, i think i figured it out.

01:30 <bitcoin-wizards2> on a more general note

01:31 <bitcoin-wizards2> is everyone here aware of Brian Armstrong's latest message? Brian is Coinbase CEO.

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01:35 <bitcoin-wizards2> Two important links: 1) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rejl9/coinbase_ceo_brian_armstrong_bip_101_is_the_best/, 2) https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3rfapk/new_post_by_mike_hearn_appears_to_have_been/

01:35 <bitcoin-wizards2> Specifically, note his endorsement of XT despite the obvious lack of ecosystem support of XT and lack of traction.

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01:37 <kanzure> that shouldn't be surprising considering his previous statements. but why is that -wizards material?

01:38 <bitcoin-wizards2> It seems like a very serious situation, maybe the most explicit statement made by Brian thus far.

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01:39 <bitcoin-wizards2> I'm curious what is going on behind the scenes, and if Core has a response. What is Core doing to retain Brian's support? Brian has said he is fine with Core.

01:39 <bitcoin-wizards2> As long as it does something.

01:46 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: please try to contain XT shitfest to #bitcoin :)

01:46 <katu> its technically uninteresting, just pure politics

01:47 <bitcoin-wizards2> Okay, but isn't this important?

01:47 <bitcoin-wizards2> Why is everyone behaving so non-chalant?

01:47 <katu> most tech folks practice strict hands off approach

01:48 <katu> and political decisions are very closely hands on :)

01:48 <bitcoin-wizards2> This could lead to Civil War and the end of Bitcoin, practically.

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01:48 <bitcoin-wizards2> I understand, but that ^.

01:48 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: so?

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01:48 <katu> if bitcoin fails because of politics so be it

01:48 <bitcoin-wizards2> ???

01:48 <katu> we believe it will still prevail based on merit alone

01:49 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: the whole idea of PoW based consensus

01:49 <bitcoin-wizards2> Well unfortunately the real world involves politics

01:49 <katu> more terahashes decide

01:49 <katu> not people.

01:49 <katu> not politicians.

01:49 <belcher> if bitcoin can be changed because a charismatic leader lobbied some mining pools and wrote some blogposts then its in trouble

01:49 <bitcoin-wizards2> Code is important, but politics is just as important in the real world.

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01:49 <Nickyo9> its not romur! bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain

01:49 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: then try to come up with technical solutions how to avoid politics

01:50 <katu> we all know politics is just smoke and mirrors and hate it for that reason

01:50 <katu> we'd better have no politics

01:50 <bitcoin-wizards2> The solution is for Brian to be genuinely engaged by Core.

01:50 <katu> amoral, not moral/immoral.

01:50 <belcher> im sure technical folk will enter the discussion if theres any danger of the consensus forking, luckily we're very far away from that

01:50 <bitcoin-wizards2> I don't understand why Brian would say what he said about XT.

01:50 <bitcoin-wizards2> Charlie Lee didn't expect this either, and he works for Coinbase.

01:51 <bitcoin-wizards2> mods can you ban Nickyo9

01:51 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: political bickering

01:51 <katu> why do you even care?

01:51 <bitcoin-wizards2> Nickyo9: just spammed a virus link

01:51 <katu> are you afraid on effect on market?

01:51 <katu> if so, this is not markets channel

01:51 <bitcoin-wizards2> katu I'm afraid because I care deeply about bitcoin for many reasons

01:51 <katu> for what we care, bitcoin price could drop to two cents :)

01:51 <katu> bitcoin-wizards2: most people care only because of their money

01:52 <bitcoin-wizards2> If your opinion represents Core's opinion, then I'm not surprised Brian is going to XT

01:52 <katu> i shush you off because i suspect you of the same. if not, state your case :)

01:52 <bitcoin-wizards2> And maybe everyone else should go to XT.

01:52 <bitcoin-wizards2> Maybe I've been wrong about Core this whole time

01:52 <belcher> this channel is logged and this off-topic talk can be very irritating when searching those logs, so take this somewhere else

01:52 <bitcoin-wizards2> If you guys really are this brain dead to say such things (for what we care price could go to 2 cents)

01:52 <bitcoin-wizards2> Okay, thanks for the help. Later.

01:53 <amiller> bitcoin-wizards2, katu, this whole thing is off topic, elsewhere please?

01:53 <amiller> k

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02:01 <katu> belcher: to turn this incident into something productive, are there some ideas out there to make pooled mining difficult/infeasible?

02:01 <katu> i've poured through kanzure's stash, but found only paper or two on proofs of serially done computation

02:01 <belcher> idk sorry

02:03 <adlai> katu: have you seen amiller's paper?

02:04 <adlai> http://cs.umd.edu/~amiller/nonoutsourceable_full.pdf, discussion at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=309073.0;all

02:05 <amiller> there's also blogposts by selfish mining cornell folkks http://hackingdistributed.com/2014/06/18/how-to-disincentivize-large-bitcoin-mining-pools/

02:05 <katu> adlai: yeah, forgot about pinnochio

02:06 <katu> but serial PoWs struck me as more practical, because those are still easier to verify

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02:14 <amiller> katu, like sequentially hard proofs of work?

02:15 <amiller> katu, there's this http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~mohammad/files/papers/11%20TimeLock.pdf

02:16 <kanzure> "the real world"

02:16 <kanzure> "i am outraged that you don't parrot my narrative"

02:17 <kanzure> politics was never a good idea

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02:33 <gwillen> kb Nickyo9

02:33 Nickyo9 was banned on #bitcoin-wizards by gwillen [*!*@31.6.14.89]

02:33 Nickyo9 was kicked from #bitcoin-wizards by gwillen [Nickyo9]

02:33 <gwillen> oops.

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02:39 <gmaxwell> gwillen: hope you didn't follow that link.

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02:46 <katu> amiller: thanks. yeah, i've seen similiar idea somewhere with pebble graphs, though can't recall which paper was that.

02:46 <katu> ie while such pow is difficult in theory, in practice one can have embarassingly parallel problem which cant be run in parallel because of bandwidth constraints.

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02:48 <katu> amiller: anything where the (very relevant) point on dealing with variance (ie people hate it and thus put up with pools) is discussed?

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02:51 <gwillen> gmaxwell: no, the 'oops' was for saying "kb" instead of doing "/kb"

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02:56 <IDoTrades> bitcoin going to hit 1500$ due to this news!!! coindesk lie to us! http://www.nasdaqtoday.com/Overstock-has-confirmed-that-Nasdaq-is-using-blockchain

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02:57 <gwillen> that's a malware link, don't click it

03:00 <gwillen> for the record, 31.6.0-63 all appears to be dynamic IPs from the same ISP.

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03:29 <archobserver> just what bitcoin needs ... to fail due to malware

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08:40 <bramc> Looks like I missed out on some *fascinating* political discussions while I was gone.

08:42 <bramc> The -wizards line on that stuff is fairly consistent: XT is a bad idea but we aren't interested in discussing it much in this channel, because it's technically uninteresting. The trading price of bitcoin is not a subject of particular interest to us, caveat emptor.

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09:11 <fluffypony> bramc: I don't think that the issue is with an alternate implementation, per se, after all there's Luke-Jr's patchset and Conformal's btcd that all live in reasonable harmony with Core

09:12 <fluffypony> but even btcd presents a negligible fork risk by comparison

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09:18 <wumpus> there's not problem with alternative implementations, there is a problem with deliberately using different validation rules in an attempt to create division and fork of part of the nodes from the chain

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09:18 <fluffypony> ^^

09:19 <wumpus> it is interesting in that it is a kind of attack on the network and usability of the system, but apart from the the political discussion isn't -wizards material

09:19 <wumpus> apart from that*

09:20 <fluffypony> wumpus: at the same time I do think that an aspect that is of interest to some wizards, to me at least, are the technical effects felt from the socio-political events

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09:41 <phantomcircuit> wumpus, i dont even care about that; it's calling it bitcoin and trying to convince people to treat it as equal that's the problem

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12:19 <kanzure> would be good to list out some good reasons to not care about market price (e.g., "because it's epistemologically irrelevant") as upfront immunity to future intrusion in that direction

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12:20 <Taek> although not a direct reason, discussions related to price often decay into being high-noise and heavy speculation very quickly.

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13:02 <JackH> where can we grab some testnet coins?

13:03 <JackH> I need to test some stuff, anyone have a good testnet faucet on hand?

13:03 <Taek> #bitcoin

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13:39 <nsh> graph isomorphism possibly proven to be quasipolynomial solvable: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2521

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13:40 <nsh> .tw https://twitter.com/rrwilliams/status/661738595447771136

13:40 <yoleaux> TCS Rumor of The Year: the UChicago Theory Seminar just announced an upcoming talk by Babai: Graph Isomorphism is in quasi-poly-time. WHAT! (@rrwilliams)

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22:50 <kanzure> did anyone post bramc's fee estimation stuff to bitcoin-dev mailing list? did that happen

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