sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
<sipa>
bramc: well bitcoin has no invalidity proofs at all; nodes either verify all rules (which needs the UTXO set), or just the proof of work
<bramc>
Because it's all canonical, if somebody has a valid time proof they can trivially compare to an invalid time proof and find out where the wrong one is wrong, and tell their peers about it, which then can do a computation very quickly to verify what position Y is supposed to be
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<bramc>
sipa, Right, without the awful proofs of time everything is a lot simpler, the only 'invalidation' is 'I have a longer blockchain'
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<bramc>
So it seems like the state machine between peers should be that we declare to each other what our current block height and work factor are, and what the top block is, and if yours beats mine then I download from you and if it validates I update. If we have the same work factor no transfers happen until somebody adds more.
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<sipa>
bramc: that's the only invalidation to a lightweight node (which only verifies proof of work), full nodes have many more rules (their accepted blockchain is the longest _valid_ chain, not just longest chain), and all those rules need invalidity proofs
<kanzure>
and cumulative work weight
<sipa>
(longest is defined as most cumulative weight)
<bramc>
I said 'work factor' instead of 'cumulative work weight' because I didn't know the standard term
<sipa>
bitcoin keeps track of 'total expected double-SHA256 hashes in the chain'
<bramc>
sipa, of course a full node validates everything while downloading it. I don't see what proofs of invalidation could get you though, because you always have the form of invalidity of 'this hash doesn't actually point anywhere'
<bramc>
sipa, what do you mean by 'double-SHA256 hash in the chain'?
<sipa>
bramc: the expected number of hashes for a block is 2^256 divided by the target hash value it was required to beat
<sipa>
the sum of those values for all blocks in the chain is maintained
<sipa>
it's around 1.5 * 10^25 currently
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<sipa>
bramc: you can envision a trust model for a node which only accepts blocks which have 1) all hashes pointing to data resolved 2) pass a small random subset of full validation rules and 3) doesn't hear about an invalidity proof for any failed validation
<bramc>
sipa, What's wrong with doing a full validation?
<sipa>
bramc: it's costly
<bramc>
How is it costly?
<sipa>
you need the full UTXO set
<sipa>
you need to ECDSA validations for signatures
<sipa>
for convergence, nodes not only need to just do this, but also do it reasonably fast
<bramc>
So it's the running through and maintaining of the full UTXO set which is the real problem?
<gmaxwell>
It's also brittle; if you can't keep up you're forced to not validate; hello evaporative cooling.
<bramc>
I suppose all those ecdsa signatures could get expensive, but shouldn't it be possible to verify any number of valid schnorr signatures all at once?
<sipa>
bramc: the speedup factor for batch schnorr validation is somewhere between 2 and 4
<bramc>
Oh, hmm, that's good but less than I hoped
<sipa>
batches require a very significant amount of work to "preprocess" into a single verification
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<kanzure>
16:33 <~mlp> the one proof of time that I know is possible to do is rivest-shamir-wagner timelock puzzles, which are basically "have an integer i, have a prime p, have a nonce n, square i n times in a finite field mod p" and don't require snarks at all
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<bsm117532>
bramc: proof of work IS a proof of time. Any algorithm allows time to be sped up and slowed down by computing faster or slower. So your only option is to compute as fast as possible.
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<nsh>
it's not that simple
<nsh>
PoW can be time experienced in parallel
<nsh>
but proven in sum
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<bsm117532>
nsh: A trivial non-parallelizable pow algorithm is hash composition: hash(hash(hash(...)))
<bsm117532>
Everything turns into proof of work with enough examination...
<bsm117532>
nsh: "trusted timestamp servers" can be implemented in such a way, for example, if no one knows your algorithm or sequence nonces you're throwing in. But if anyone does, it turns back into PoW because the next hash can be computed early by an attacker with enough computing power.
* nsh
nods
* bsm117532
goes back to his work on emergent time from hypercomplex analysis...
<nsh>
the problem, for me, is that it's very nontrivial indeed to reason about what is proven about the expenditure of work vs. the experience of duration vs. the locality and ontogeny of state
<bramc>
kanzure, I'm familiar with timelock puzzles, and even independently reinvented them many years ago, but they're unfortunately a different thing. They allow you to make a puzzle which somebody else can open in a set amount of time, that's different from a puzzle which applies to an arbitrary input which requires a set amount of time for anybody to do it and which can be quickly verified.
<nsh>
you can make new 'nowness' by computing one-way functions of existing state with - as you say, potentially secret, or at least ephemeral - nonces
<bramc>
nsh, I have a larger system worked out which answers those questions. The system ain't simple though.
* bsm117532
is suspicous of the word "ontogeny". I have to google it every time.
<nsh>
coming into being
<nsh>
how worked out, bramc? any notes?
<bsm117532>
bramc: The only way to invent such a thing is to have an unpredictable and global source of state that all can observe. No such state exists. In fact quantum mechanics guarantees it doesn't exist.
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<bramc>
bsm117532 Unfortunately sequential hashing is about the best canonical proof of time we have. It has the awful property of requiring just as much time and work to verify as to make. You can throw in intermediary values to make it possible to verify in parallel, and make it so that after each checkpoint the next step starts with hashing everything up to that point, which makes it so that spot checking is effective, but it's still awful.
<nsh>
well, that's how bitcoin works... the mempools seeds the now-state to which nodes synchronise as blocktime
<nsh>
*mempool
<nsh>
*at
<bsm117532>
bramc: Yep. Well that's my contribution to the conversation. It's awful. But the only way I know.
<bramc>
nsh, Unfortunately it's still mostly in my head although I've explained it to a few people. The idea is to use proofs of time to fix some of the deeper problems with proofs of space systems
* nsh
nods
<bsm117532>
bramc: I don't understand how your argument makes it parallel. It's still sequential, with a different starting point.
<bramc>
nsh, The quick summary is that each block instead of being a single proof of space is a proof of space followed by a proof of time, where the length of the proof of time is inversely proportional to the quality of the proof of space.
<bramc>
If I want to verify that h100 results eventually from h1, but happen to have h10 h20 h30 etc. Then I can start each of ten processors at one of them and repeatedly hash them all ten times and I've verified that the full h100
<nsh>
hmm
<nsh>
what's the quality of PoSpace?
<bramc>
nsh, This trick obliterates the problem of re-mining since genesis, and has some other benefits as well. Unfortunately it makes the whole thing into a bit of a rube goldberg contraption, especially with the new trick I came up with the other day.
<bsm117532>
bramc: Ok interesting, a direct trade of time for space.
<bsm117532>
time/n, space*n
<bramc>
A proof of space is something which involves (1) do a precalculation which fills out O(n) space, (2) do a calculation on that space which involves almost no time but which shows that you either had that calculation filled out already or ground it out in the process of making the proof
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<bsm117532>
Yeah I see why verification is a bitch.
<bsm117532>
What was wrong with the paper gmaxwell posted the other day about it?
<bramc>
bsm117532 exactly. If you add in that each one starts by hashing together all the intermediary values which lead up to it then you can spot check secure that if somebody simply lies about fraction x of the intermediary values to skip computation then your chances of busting them are at least x for each one you check
<bramc>
bsm117532 I'm not sure what paper you're referring to, but a property I critically need is for the proofs to be canonical
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<bsm117532>
spacemint. Sorry it was amiller
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<bramc>
bsm117532 Yes that uses the best known proofs of space. I need to trudge through it.
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<bsm117532>
The best known proofs of space are yo momma so fat jokes.
<bsm117532>
(sorry, it's Friday night -- have a good weekend everyone!)
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<sipa>
it's saturday morning, you insensitive clod
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<gmaxwell>
someone should make a website that shows the times when it is, in fact, not happy hour anywhere.
<kanzure>
do leap seconds count? *ducks*
<gmaxwell>
damn leap seconds.
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<gmaxwell>
ITU's politically driven stupidity there makes me want to personally go replace UTC. oh well.
<kanzure>
time is a silly concept anyway
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<belcher>
why are leap seconds political ?
<gmaxwell>
belcher: because they're what keep the UTC noon fixed over a particular geography. :(
<gmaxwell>
being the definition of time is a point of pride.
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<belcher>
is that bad/wrong ? dont leap years keep the months fixed with the seasons
<gmaxwell>
and the process of measuring the mean solar data from astronomical observations to produce the corrections involves many people (though presumably that work would still continue, but it would become less important)
<gmaxwell>
belcher: the definition of the lenght of a day (or, if you want, the second) is somewhat wrong and even if weren't the earth's rotation is slowing due to tidal drag and other forces.
<gmaxwell>
Without leap seconds, after about 4000 years the timezones will have slipped by an hour.
<belcher>
yep, one day because of tidal forces the day will last one month
<gmaxwell>
What I, and many others think we should do is stop the leap seconds, and if in 2000 years anyone still cares at all about civil time aligning with the sun, then we can all adjust timezones by 1 hour. A long planned timezone change every 2000 years is a lot less disruptive than unpreditable potentially twice a year tweaks. (esp since you could opt infrastructure that doesn't care about solar time
<gmaxwell>
out of that change just by having it use straight UTC as its timezone)
<belcher>
so in that case shouldnt the day be defined as 28*24*60*60 seconds? if people are alive then it will be their day
<belcher>
ok so the unpredictability is an issue? i can see that, its not like the julian/gregorian calender split which is predictable
<gmaxwell>
the alternative of continuing the leap seconds is causing continual failures of computer systems which are getting worse over time as systems become more picky about time sync.
<gmaxwell>
belcher: yea, there have been two internet wide false leap second events in the last couple years, and when they happen many other systems miss them. There is no secure way to handle them, and lots of systems just fail due to inadequate testing.
<sipa>
how long in advance are leap seconds decided?
<gmaxwell>
Many network operators just reboot equipment across leapseconds. Which is especially annoying because in some timezone they happen in the middle of the business day.
<gmaxwell>
sipa: Three months, I think?
<gmaxwell>
The exact times they can be applied is fixed, but AFAIK the notice period isn't.
<gmaxwell>
There is no cryptographically secure way to learn about them. The common way we encode timebases doesn't have a way to express if they're applied or not.
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<gmaxwell>
Every time one happens you hear about another model series of gps recievers that start returning the wrong time one month before the leap second; ... gps sends a leap-second pending flag, and inevitably whatever firmware hasn't seen a leap second yet immediately applies it.
<belcher>
if they were predictable it would solve the issue right? perhaps the earth's variability in rotation is not understood enough yet
<sipa>
heh, why can't gps receivers not just use some uncorrected timescale?
<sipa>
their time can be independent from our clocks, no?
<gmaxwell>
sipa: GPS time is not leapsecond corrected. GPS timescale started from utc uh.. 17 leap seconds ago (there have been like 30) but it transmits an offset.
<sipa>
gmaxwell: i think we should also get rid of timezones (mostly)... maybe have one for america, one for europe, and 2 for asia :)
<sipa>
and of DST
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<alpalp>
hawaii gets screwed
<gmaxwell>
Which is good, because if gps used leapsecond time all those broken recievers would probably forever fail to capture sync, rather than returning the time wrong for a month. :)
<kanzure>
timezones are definitely a scam
<kanzure>
if you call someone on the phone who is in a "different" time zone, they will be talking at you at the same time
<sipa>
oh, so you can't call australia to get your lottery results before buying a ticket?
<sipa>
truly silly
<gmaxwell>
I'd just as well use GPS time (or equivilent up to an offset, TAI) on all my computers; except then there is no good way to get the current offset, and if anything touches ntp it all blows up. (as NTP has no way to communicate that you're using TAI)
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<gmaxwell>
at one point I tried to get NTP to change to a non-leapy timebase and just communicate an offset, but there are to many ways that NTP servers get UTC that can't tell them the current offset.
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<sipa>
gmaxwell: leap seconds are allowed at the end of every month
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<sipa>
according to wikipedia, the ultimate authority for knowledge
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<gmaxwell>
Hm. I thought they were only allowed in june or december! Well I guess thats why the GPS leap pending notice only comes 1 month ahead.
<alpalp>
gmaxwell: they have only happened then in the past.
<sipa>
they have only been in june or december
<alpalp>
first preference june/december, march/september next preference
<gmaxwell>
I'm sure everything would break if they happened any other times.
<gmaxwell>
Then again, I had my desktop here for no discernable reason decide to insert leapseconds at utc midnight three days in a row in the middle of september.
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<gmaxwell>
because I really wanted my time to be off by three seconds, gee thanks.
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<belcher>
the october revolution has two dates because of leap year shenanigans, the only difference between leap years and seconds are that one is less predictable
<belcher>
the earth may be a terrible clock, but we live on it
<sipa>
not predictable is a pretty annoying property for clocks
<belcher>
yes
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<belcher>
but the solution cant be "just forget about it" because one day the calender/clock wont match astronomical events
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<belcher>
the julian calender was abandoned because people were planting crops at the wrong time of year
<belcher>
maybe instead of leap second, a leap hour that happens every ~4000 years
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<belcher>
a leap minute every century ?
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<Eliel_>
once in a lifetime sounds good.
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<Tiraspol>
Does anyone here know a Tesla owner?
<Tiraspol>
Model S
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