sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gmaxwell>
New definition of a waste of time: arguing with someone who's never looked into how bitcoin works, or even run a bitcoin node about details of the unsafty of unconfirmed transactions. Jesus.
<gmaxwell>
The whole idea of "first" as something with universal truth is really firmly stuck in people's heads.
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<kang_>
gmaxwell: Hire a secretary :)
<TD-Linux>
gmaxwell, I'm sorry it seems you went to reddit by mistake
<gmaxwell>
TD-Linux: You'd make a good clippy.
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<TD-Linux>
oh wow wtf I actually went to reddit and it's worse than I thought
<gwillen>
TD-Linux: I'm so sorry
* adlai
went, saw "Bitcoin won't scale http://i.imgur.com/z22Auvb.jpg" meme as top post, closes tab while things are going well
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<aj>
TD-Linux: it's gone pretty bananas the last couple of days...
<aj>
gmaxwell: i figured out how to sign non-standard things with python; now just for manually selected r-values...
<aj>
gmaxwell: are there any previous practical examples/use-cases of people using codeseparator?
<adlai>
dna uses it all over the place
<aj>
adlai: dna as genes, or is there a bitcoin related thing with that acronym? (omg.. "genecoin -- a service to backup your dna / upload it to the blockchain")
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<adlai>
dna as introns
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<sipa>
adlai: introns?
<gmaxwell>
sipa: non coding sections of DNA; adlai's reference is to the fact that they get cut out by walking backwards during protein synthesis like codeseperator works. :)
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<nsh>
there are no 'non-coding' things in the universe
<nsh>
(just more or less involved and opaque varieties of interpretation)
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<fluffypony>
gmaxwell: on the other hand, I'm grateful that the RBF discussion has opened people up to understanding that you can't universally order the mempool, and that we wouldn't need miners if we could
<gmaxwell>
is anyone actually learning that?
<fluffypony>
well, I get the feeling that a lot of the "0-conf-is-safe" proponents misunderstand the gravity of the situation
<fluffypony>
but there seems to be some coming around
<gmaxwell>
Yes. absolutely.
<gmaxwell>
well mostly I see people who go "duh" and people who don't get it and are digging in. :(
<fluffypony>
my favourite are the people that go "we'll just run XT, because I know they'll reject the RBF PR"
<sipa>
0-conf is safe in the same way that CSS protection for DVD's safe
<fluffypony>
lol
<sipa>
meaning: until someone teaches everyone how to do it
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* Lightsword
considers enabling full RBF on his pool
<Lightsword>
at least XT is nice enough to forward double spends to pools :P
<gmaxwell>
sipa: I was having a frustating conversation on reddit with some people who were fixated on easy, where they thought opt in rbf was so much easier than concurrent transmission double spends.
<gmaxwell>
was hard to not just respond "holy crap, I'll go write the tools now, so we can stop having this argument! okay?!"
<fluffypony>
gmaxwell: your first problem was going on Reddit...
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<fluffypony>
the number of times I've started typing a reply only to realise that my time is literally better spent going outside and standing in the sun for five minutes
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* Lightsword
thinks theymos needs a bigger banhammer
<sipa>
fluffypony: that sounds awesome; it's clouds and rain and snow here
<fluffypony>
sipa: it's proper summer here, 30° C today
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<moa>
gmaxwell : "I was having a frustrating conversation on reddit ... " <- the "frustrating" is the default on reddit so superfluous ...
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<Taek>
I've seen a lot of good things happen on reddit, and benefitted from many of the comments dropped by the core devs
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<Taek>
I feel weird about the reddit bashing that happens here. Sure there's a lot of low-quality conversation, but I don't think it's all bad
<andytoshi>
Taek: it's because reddit is, on net, very demoralizing
<Taek>
I wonder if some of the problems relate to how relatively well everyone is educated about Bitcoin
<Taek>
with other open source software, when the core devs make a decision, the average person has no idea what it means
<Taek>
if Linux changes the scheduling algorithm, the controversy never makes it to the public b/c the public doesn't understand enough
<andytoshi>
hehe, the difference in bitcoin is definitely not that the public "understands"
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<andytoshi>
there are a shitload of paid shills in this space. i've never seen anywhere else like it
<andytoshi>
like yesterday greg mentioned on another channel that there were people outright lying about libsecp and if we could go correct this it'd be nice. so i went to reddit and was immediately bombarded by all-caps lying about RBF.
<andytoshi>
and a lot of this is personally targeted
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<bsm1175322>
Everyone has a vested interest in making money, and everyone thinks they know all about it. :-/ Also, utter failure of law enforcement to stop numerous forms of fraud and crime on the internet have emboldened criminals. We can't let it stop us though.
<katu>
Taek: the -CK and BFS drama sure had its share of uninformed public drama :)
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<bsm1175322>
Louis CK has a routine about Breadth First Search?
<bsm1175322>
(sorry, too much time staring at graph theory ;-)
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<phantomcircuit>
Taek, the SNR on reddit is ridiculously low
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<phantomcircuit>
Taek, i'd say it approximates zero at this point
<bsm1175322>
(In a DAG) The work of a minimal enclosed subgraph defined by all blocks partial-ordered between block's youngest parent and oldest child, relative to his own work, is a measure of whether the miner is distributing his blocks in an appropriately timely manner, or withholding them, or trying to perform an analog of the selfish mining attack.
<katu>
(reading this in CKs voice)
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<katu>
bsm1175322: nope, still have to work on your material. make the parents-reap-benefit-of-child-labor implication more pronounced.
<bsm1175322>
Be sure to insert a few fucks.
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<bsm1175322>
How about this, it's not a strict DAG but a restriction I'm calling an incest-free DAG. ;-)
<katu>
secular and non-secular DAG?
<bsm1175322>
Obviously non-secular. Only cults incentivize incest.
<bsm1175322>
Obviously *secular
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<kisspunch>
bsm117532: So I pretty much know where to find the raw graph theory, but I have no idea where to find good data structures and algorithms for working with DAGs (especially mutable DAGs, Knuth is sorta okay for static partial order stuff). Recommend anything?
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<bsm1175322>
kisspunch: It's a good question, I'm knee deep in it right now. I've found little that's very helpful, honestly. Most graph literature is concerned with finding paths, which we don't care about. OTOH a DAG can be partial ordered in linear time, which gets you half way there. Beyond that I'm making it up as I go along. Are you working on this too?
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<kisspunch>
Converted from partial to total ordereding in linear time (topological sort), I assume you mean? Yeah, there's more on partial orderings than most operations. Uh, I was working on extending segment trees to DAGs which turns out to work fine but no one's done it, and that's a fairly general solution to some stuff. I basically don't know any resources either and that's why I asked.
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<kisspunch>
I've gotten more milage out of examining algorithms which work on trees and going to DAGs, rather than algorithms that work on graphs.
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<bsm1175322>
kisspunch: yes, a topological sort.
<kisspunch>
Oh, also you know this but the keyword is often "posets" rather than DAG in mathland.
<bsm1175322>
Actually I didn't. But now that you say it...(smacks forehead) of course it is.
<bsm1175322>
poset is probably a better notion for this actually. We have weighted nodes, and can drop the edges in favor of the ordering.
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<bsm1175322>
kisspunch: for now I'm content just demonstrating something better than a blockchain. There are substantial algorithmic problems here, but premature optimization is the root of all evil, and I'm fairly certain everything I need can be computed in a time linear in the number of DAG-blocks. These ideas are clearly less mature than e.g. Bitcoin-NG but they also solve some of its problems. For now I'm working with a
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<fluffypony>
bsm1175322: you cut out after "with a"
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<bsm1175322>
Sorry: For now I'm working with a toy model of bitcoin but I'd like to approach the Bitcoin-NG folks a bit later and use their fancy simulator. But that's pretty far down the line at this point.
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