sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<astro>
hmm, quieter than I thought it would be.
<sipa>
you've been here for a minute
<sipa>
there are often hours without discussion, but you're welcome to start talking about something :)
<astro>
I guess I expected constant streaming conversation :-)
<gmaxwell>
It's like that some days but not others.
<astro>
aah. Honestly I was hoping to learn from the ramblings :)
<gmaxwell>
There are lots of logs.
<sipa>
or stay here for a few days :)
<astro>
I'll do both!
<astro>
So I was listening to a talk from Greg Maxwell and he mentioned someone was doing research into latency times for different pools. Anyone know if that research was publicized anywhere?
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<kanzure>
jl2012 keeps getting unsubscribed from bitcoin-dev due to bounces. so people in general should not assume that jl2012 receives bitcoin-dev email in a reliable manner.
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<thezerg>
RE: CTxMemPool::check does it really check every single transaction in the mempool to make sure that every input is valid?
<midnightmagic>
astro: some of it was reported in here.
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<astro>
midnightmagic: well at least I'm in the right place for future stuff then :-) Reading the logs now.
<midnightmagic>
astro: if you are at all curious about anything interesting bitcoin-related, this is the place to lurk
<midnightmagic>
for sure. :)
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<astro>
I'm interested in technicals, theoreticals, and problems. I sorta outgrew my current btc community in terms of interest, they were mostly news and adoption chatter. Nothing wrong with that, just not my topics of interest.
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<gmaxwell>
[OT] Yubico has a 20% off 'for github' users; with the 20% off their products are.. well still stupidly overpriced (actually the u2f only products are not too terrible; but who wants a smartcard that can't do pgp-- and the new yubi4 finally do 4kilobit keys)
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<kinlo>
gmaxwell: do you know anything cheaper than yubico ?
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<kinlo>
in the end, you don't pay their devices, you pay for their r&d and since they don't have any expensive lock-in contracts for licences/software to make their devices work, they need to earn their money some other way...
<gmaxwell>
for u2f only there are now a bunch of vendors with $9 parts, though I don't know if they're as robust as the yubico parts (which have historically been pretty robust)
<kinlo>
yeah, but the yubico devices are nice things that can do much more then just u2f
<gmaxwell>
Yes, (well yubico now has a u2f only device that costs $18)
<gmaxwell>
In any case, if I didn't think people would want them I wouldn't have mentioned them here!
<gmaxwell>
I do think the price inhibits adoption, which makes me sad.
<tulip>
the Nano version is more interesting, they are just a piece of normal PCB material with the silicon die seemingly placed in between the layers.
<gmaxwell>
This may be of more general interest, I mentioned a bit of wtf in #secp256k1 earlier:
<gmaxwell>
tulip: wrt that article, I have to say my expirence with older yubikeys (never used a neo or later myself) is that in ordinary use they're very robust.
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<gmaxwell>
but yea, the parts costs reflect my expectations... and also part of why I was lamenting.
<tulip>
same, I had a yubikey nano on my literal keyring for 2 years with no problems.
<gmaxwell>
i have an mtgox yubi on my keyring, since they shipped them out at the end of 2011. Still works fine. btkrtfhcgkbefuelkgdhrbelfiiudleetifdchbknvre
<tulip>
the price probably reflects their expectation of saturating the available market more than anything.
<gmaxwell>
I wonder if their u2f only devices are the same hardware with a different firmware load?
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<gmaxwell>
weird. I commented on that ecc article and pointed out the problematic parameters and my comment is gone, did anyone see it?
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<fluffypony>
nope - removed or just awaiting moderation?
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<gmaxwell>
fluffypony: yea, probably the latter, though thats why I asked if anyone else saw it.
<yoleaux>
Stanford researchers uncover patterns in how scientists lie about their data
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<kanzure>
"In order to create a bidirectional payment channel, it is necessary that previous commitments be revokable. In order to revoke previous commitments, each party reveals a secret to the other that would allow them to steal the funds in the channel if a transaction for a previous commitment is inserted into the blockchain. By allowing for arbitrary nesting of sublevels, we can construct decision trees of arbitrary depth and revoke an ...
<kanzure>
... entire branch by revealing a parent node used to derive all the children."
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* aj
waves at kanzure
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<Madars>
Interesting!
* Madars
looks
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<Madars>
whoops, looks like I missed your earlier question, kanzure (about trustless SNARKs in Hong Kong) -- the anwer is yes! where by trustless we mean "you have to corrupt every single MPC participant to break the trust guarantees"
<nsh>
any reference for this?
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<Madars>
yes, we have a paper "Secure Sampling of Public Parameters for Succinct Zero Knowledge Proofs" in this year's Oakland
<Madars>
whoops, seems like they haven't made it open access. hmm...
<bramc>
madars: How many parties in the setup can that protocol practically support?
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<kanzure>
er i have heard claims of many 1000s of participants
<gmaxwell>
I heard the opposite, bandwidth usage was large and involved broadcasts that scaled poorly.
<Madars>
bramc: it generates about 12GB/party data and 4 hours/party, but the kicker is probably round complexity (you need 3*num_parties rounds). but we are hard at work to optimize the implementation :)
<kanzure>
oh
<gmaxwell>
yea, thats in line with what I heard.
<gmaxwell>
And I recommended that it was important to have a remote participant, even if the cost was great and it made the process slow.
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<kanzure>
there was a scheme that required a 1-10 GB "setup data" stage, but i thought this was maxed out at 10 GB and not much more data required; perhaps this was some other technique from another area.
<gmaxwell>
interesting, I think a snark is overkill for that, in fact-- it doesn't need public verifibility, no?
<gmaxwell>
(if so, it's not amazingly important; but it means that the higher layer protocol is more robust to needing particular cryptographic assumptions)
<Madars>
gmaxwell: yes. compared to classical MPC protocols the round complexity is amazing (as in: you don't need to exchange 4 million messages back and forth for each party, if your circuit has 4 million mul gates like zerocash), but people should use airgaps and then 3*num_parties rounds is better than 4million*num_parties, but still not so shiny
<kanzure>
was that email partly motivated by fee sniping concerns? i think fee sniping should be okay- if someone is better at routing and can figure out a way to offer a better fee, let 'em.
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<rusty>
gmaxwell: I mentioned it here because of my complete inability to assess the proposal.
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<gmaxwell>
rusty: well just assume the black box does what he says. or more generally, think about what you can do in the lightning protocols if someone hands you the ability to give someone a list of hashes, and then prove that they are H(X||1) H(X||2) H(X||3)... for some unspecified X.
<gmaxwell>
(not exactly the construction he's using but I think it's simpler to reason with)
<rusty>
gmaxwell: yeah, I was wresting with dissociating R values a while back (and probably discussed it with ah), and didn't think of snarks. I felt there may be a way using pubkeys, but it would require more thought and in particular, a thorough definition of the requirements.
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