sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc>
kanzure, I subscribed with delivery turned off so I can post
<bramc>
kanzure, Now awaiting moderator approval
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<bramc>
A few thoughts from the last day: After thinking about the new approach to challenges in proofs of space I proposed yesterday, I think it's apples to apples an improvement over just using the previous PoT to generate a challenge. In both cases a kingmaker attack where someone with an exceptional challenge response can make their own thing win, but (a) That's the only attack in the new system rather than withholding also having some possible advantages
<bramc>
(b) In the new system an attacker will know they have a good response in advance, but that's immaterial (c) In the new system an attacker doesn't have any grinding options, because they have the same challenge response regardless of which previous generation value they pick (this is probably why others have proposed the simpler version without PoT) and (d) in the new system when somebody is playing kingmaker it's with something they're going to win any
<bramc>
way, rather than them getting bonused both the block they ground with and ground to.
<bramc>
Also (e) it's a lot simpler to mathematically characterize the attacks on the new approach and (f) the remaining attack seems to be very deep so it's just being showcased properly
<bramc>
Overall I rather like the new approach, the downsides are (a) Timestamping. So much timestamping. and (b) It allows for more grinding attacks where space is rewritten to be re-mined again, as opposed to using just the last PoT for challenges which gives no time for that at all. Probably not much of a problem in practice though.
<bramc>
kanzure, Thanks, I'll check the archives for new posts, and sorry about the funny line breaks.
<kanzure>
nah link was just indicator that i was able to approve it and there you go. that's all.
<bramc>
The other new thought for today is that the patricia tree format I suggested was just a little too simplistic, because there are some collisions due to single items having their hashes included verbatim, because it doesn't differentiate between a parent node which is the hash of the children and a terminal node which is a hash of the exact same thing. The solution is to simply put all the terminals through any old transformation. Flipping all their bit
<bramc>
s will work nicely. So will flipping just the last bit.
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<Taek>
one of the mechanisms discussed is the ability to buy 1 share of each result for $1
<Taek>
each 'yes' answer, rather
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<Taek>
that would make arbitrage of over-confident markets extremely easy
<Taek>
similarly, you can sell 1 'yes' share of each result for $1, which makes arbitrage of under-confident markets equivalently easy
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<aj>
if you sold 11 "yes" shares, you'd only be risking $1 (in return for $1.57 i guess), but afaics you'd have to lock up $11 to actually do it, which would be a pita
<Taek>
Is it safe to say that censorship-resistance is a prerequisite for decentralization?
<Taek>
In the case of Bitcoin, invalid blocks are actively censored by the entire network
<Taek>
though I don't think that helps answer the original question
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<aj>
Taek: i think you could be decentralised without being censorship resistant. take SMTP but then have NSA log all unencrypted connections, and block connections from anyone unpopular eg
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<Taek>
aj: got cutoff after 'unpopular eg' - but I think I agree with what you are saying
<kanzure>
"invalid blocks" don't get in, but "valid blocks that don't win" also don't get in; there was a proposal floating around that all winning blocks should include a hash of some of the competing blocks or something.
<kanzure>
or er... was it a hash of an invalid block. hm.
<Taek>
there have been at least a few proposals involving including the hashes of non-winning blocks, I believe Ethereum uses this to some extent
<kanzure>
was looking for papers yesterday re: stock markets where the orders and trading are based on probability distributions of preferences. same question for auction houses and auction games. didn't find anything interesting but also didn't look very hard.
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