sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bsm1175321>
lmatteis: I'm of the opinion that identifying pieces of meat is a losing proposition. Siamese twins exist and so do software agents/bots, and both legitimately have a right to exist and/or do my bidding.
<bsm1175321>
This world is full of "identity" which needs to be factorized into separable problems: meat identification; default risk; social evaluation; etc.
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<bsm1175321>
lmatteis: So you need to more clearly identify the problem you're trying to solve, by identifying humans...
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<kanzure>
also, what's so great about humans?
<kanzure>
rhetorical question do not answer
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: cephalopods are tastier.
<kanzure>
speak for yourself.
<smooth>
infinitesimally more on topic, it still doesn't solve the problem with replay
<bsm1175321>
And should we deny them rights?
<kanzure>
anyway, eventually people will have to get over the fact that not all humanoids have identity- a bunch will be emulations running around in software
<kanzure>
with fiat-shamir key sharing schemes to keep things in check or something
* kanzure
handwaves
<bsm1175321>
smooth: That's an interesting point...but I suppose it's easy enough to change a captcha by one bit so as to change it's hash?
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<smooth>
bsm1175321: the problem is that one human can solve one captcha that opens 1000 different locks
<smooth>
even assuming human solving is possible and matters
<bsm1175321>
kanzure: Humans are not great, nor identifiable. See my Siamese twins example...squish hard enough and one becomes two...
<bsm1175321>
morbid, I agree, but a digression...
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<bsm1175321>
"Identity" is an illusion. There are only a couple of interesting problems to solve: (1) do you hold the same private keys as the entity that visited my site as last time? (2) Has someone with lower risk evaluation than your own in attested to you regarding your default risk? (3) <insert problem here>
<kanzure>
number the third one is "convincing everyone else that this list is sufficient"
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<bsm1175321>
Sufficient for what? If you haven't specified the problem you're solving, you're probably using "identity" as a proxy for an entirely different problem that would be better solved in an entirely different way...
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<smooth>
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<lmatteis>
smooth: which problem of replay?
<smooth>
lmatteis: the most efficient way to solve a captcha is to reuse it on another service
<lmatteis>
the paper says they were able to find a way to generate captchas, without the computer itself knowing what it generated (via obfuscation)
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<lmatteis>
in that sense, i can generate on my computer a proof that i am a human, without a trusted third party
<lmatteis>
that's pretty interesting if you ask me
<smooth>
as far as i can tell they dont prove that at all, they just prove that the computer that generated it didn't itself jump right to the answer
<smooth>
beyond that, all the existing captcha failure modes exist
<lmatteis>
you're talking about AI advancements?
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<smooth>
for example, sure
<smooth>
not even advancements necessarily, maybe just people who have better AI than you know about
<smooth>
i guess you could call that advancements in a way though
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<lmatteis>
right, their main argument is that there will be a *gap* between AI and humans for still a long time
<lmatteis>
also their argument that a crypto based on this proof of human work will actually generate employment as people are hired to solve captchas
<lmatteis>
quite fascinating
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<r0ach>
sounds horrible
<lmatteis>
anyway, the concept of distributed consensus is always tied to humans: with PoW you still trust the strongest chain because energy is pretty much accessible by many people. if only a few had access to energy, PoW would not be a good basis for distributed consensus
<r0ach>
doing Rorschach tests for hours per day
<r0ach>
proof of torture
<lmatteis>
r0ach: that's assuming you want to do crypto. this concept has many other applications
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<bramc>
Does anybody know about fruitcoin?
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<nsh>
'ICO' is a tell for scamcoin generally
<bramc>
ICO?
<gmaxwell>
"Initial coin offering"
<gmaxwell>
usually used for varrious premine presales, as a label to given them a sheen of respectability like some kind of regulated financial product. :)
<bramc>
Presales probably increases a coin's value by making a community of people who are bought in
<gmaxwell>
for a brief period of time.
<smooth>
Ethereum did an ICO and that's not a scamcoin right?
<smooth>
Anyway I'm curious what is interesting about this fruitcoin
<gmaxwell>
mostly it incentivzes people to behave unethically, to try to pump the price quickly though, which scares away other people.
<bramc>
define 'scamcoin'
<asynk>
smooth, :)
<smooth>
bramc: anything other than bitcoin of course. Fruitcoin?
<bramc>
smooth: There's a talk going on right now at stanford about it, claims to be an incentive-compatible blockchain. There doesn't seem to be a writeup of it on the web yet.
<gmaxwell>
bramc: usually things that don't do anything at all except hype and die are pretty well deserving of the scamcoin label.
<smooth>
hmm, maybe its not the same one as the ICO? Sounds like possibly an academic project?
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<c0rw1n>
"compatible with all the incentives we could think of" "which people will completely follow rationally" "what could possibly go wrong"
<bramc>
smooth: Yeah it's by academics, not an actual altcoin, I'm curious as to what exactly it's claiming and whether it actually accomplishes that. Unfortunately I couldn't make it to the talk.
<bramc>
To be fair, if you want to promote a coin which has something unique going for it, doing presales is probably the way to go
<smooth>
nothing about that thread suggests any sort of consensus research. Looks like a blackcoin clone with some sort of prepaid card
<gmaxwell>
bramc: probably not, because of the very strong asscoiation of scammyness, and the high attractiveness to people who _will_ engage in illegal activities.
<bramc>
Yeah it's a name collision, different project
<bramc>
gmaxwell: Avoiding presales might not reduce the level of scaminess
<bramc>
My main interest in ethereum is in seeing whether its planned switch to CoW will cause it to implode
<midnightmagic>
unethical or immoral coin forks that are usually (but not always) based on bitcoin, sometimes combined with obvious developer incompetence or code obfuscation, overly hype-like without substance to back it up in terms of innovation or novelty; scamcoins will also often criticize bitcoin in ways that only highly competent people can debunk. usually the novelties they hype for bitcoin differen
<smooth>
i can't find anything about this fruitcoin anywhere, i wonder if it has a different name
<midnightmagic>
tiation are not founded in actual reason.
<bramc>
smooth: The talk announcement mentions fruitcoin and 'hybrid consensus' which somehow leverages a slow blockchain to get fast consensus in something resembling more traditional multiparty protocols
<bramc>
It appears to simply not be published yet.
* nsh
suspects either name-collision or the marketing and academic people never bothered meeting or sharing memos
<bliljerk101>
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1177633.0 - this looks promising. it's a decentralized ledger data structure (not a blockchain) that addresses double spends without arbitrary scalability limits
<bramc>
midnightmagic: Yes the problem is that hardly any of the altcoins offer something which Bitcoin doesn't. Maybe zcash, monero, and siacoin. The others don't even have a coherent story