2015-10-30 00:53
sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development |
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<
r0ach >
some horrific pulse width modulation on that display
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<
nsh >
isn't it [just] ECDSA nonce reuse leakage,?
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<
nsh >
(i think it might be possible to use a hierarchical deterministic privkey algorithm to preclude reuse of nonces by used stuffing a probabilistic data structure that accumulates used nonces
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<
nsh >
maybe tricky but)
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<
nsh >
(preferable to switch to patent-free non-footshooty signature system if/when opportunity arises)
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<
maaku >
kanzure: there's some attributions in those notes...
16:38
<
maaku >
look at the asicboost section in particular
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<
maaku >
i don't know if that's an issue or not actually, just mentioning
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<
kanzure >
maaku: yes there was some excerpts from irc messages i had received, good point
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<
gwillen >
kanzure: oooooh.
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<
kanzure >
in zurich, i had a conversation over dinner with instagibbs and maaku about multi-party payment channels in lightning
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<
kanzure >
instagibbs had mentioned that someone (poon?) had sent to a mailing list a writeup about why multi-party doesn't work for lightning payment channels
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<
kanzure >
my contention was that you could probably make a system where if one party cheats that you could check which signature was used for cheating and then boot them out of the multisig pool or something
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<
kanzure >
.... sorry for all the non-details :).
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<
gwillen >
haha, no worries
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<
gwillen >
I'm very excited about this, though. Sharing the 'posted bonds' in lightning among multiple channels seems big to me in terms of the practicality of the system.
21:04
<
gwillen >
(or among more than two parties to a single channel.)
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<
maaku >
kanzure: yes, but our back of napkin result was that it would take k*O((n-1)!) signatures per channel update, where n is the number of parties and k the number of signatures normally required for a bidirectional channel
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<
maaku >
so it might make sense for n=3, but I'm doubtful for other reasons. n=4 and above is probably out of the question
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<
maaku >
actually k*O(n! - 1)
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<
gwillen >
maaku: what about the scenario where updates only have to be signed by (1) participants who lose value in the update and (2) the distinguished 'hub' node?
21:18
<
gwillen >
Do you think that could improve on that?
21:19
<
maaku >
gwillen: maybe.. i might have to whiteboard that
21:19
<
maaku >
but yes that would change it considerably
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<
maaku >
gwillen: i'm not sure it's a simple thing to do that at least with the primritives bitcoin script has available, but someone should try
21:23
<
instagibbs >
kanzure, I do not doubt that an ok solution exists, but the only one I think works without "big" softforks don't scale well
21:23
<
instagibbs >
jl2012 and I discussed this a few days ago in scrollback
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21:25
* instagibbs
notices email, reads
21:27
<
jl2012 >
I multiway payment channel with the locktime approach is more efficient than LN approach
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<
jl2012 >
I think....
21:28
<
instagibbs >
jl2012, I did more thinking and don't get how csv would work, but it's possible I'm an idiot. The initial funding transaction gets published... can't csv that
21:30
<
jl2012 >
initial funding tx (published) --> n-of-n (unpublished, no locktime) --> invalidation chain (unpublished, BIP68 locktime)
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<
jl2012 >
if everyone cooperate, the n-of-n tx should never be published
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<
jl2012 >
otherwise, publish it and wait for the invalidation to mature
21:33
<
jl2012 >
so the channel could be opened indefinitely
21:35
<
instagibbs >
oh duh
21:37
<
jl2012 >
don't need CSV (BIP112), I think
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<
instagibbs >
original construction was nlocktime only, so makes sense
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