ELLIOTTCABLE changed the topic of #elliottcable to: #ELLIOTTCABLE — do something cool, shove it into throats, everyone thinks it's crap, then it's all amazing.
<cuttle>
yorick: hahaha
<cuttle>
alexgordon: oh so you have auto mapping of / on tuples?
<alexgordon>
cuttle: it's just an overload
<cuttle>
yeah i should've read a bit further
<cuttle>
yeah
<alexgordon>
but yeah
<alexgordon>
:: (Real, Real) -> (Real, Real)
<alexgordon>
divide((a, b), c) = (a/c, b/c)
<cuttle>
cool
<yorick>
and now it's up to 3
<alexgordon>
cuttle: I'm a little uncomfortable about implicit conversion of data structures to tuples (thinking about C's enum), but I think it's for the greater good
* cuttle
nods
<cuttle>
yeah i was a bit uneasy about that
<alexgordon>
highly useful though
<alexgordon>
means you can define a function on (A, B) and pass any data structure into it
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
and . flip makes it more versatile?
<alexgordon>
I suppose the problem is that data structures are more like sets than tuples from a type theoretical POV
<alexgordon>
erm
<alexgordon>
some of them anyway
<alexgordon>
Vector is a great candidate for implicit conversion
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<alexgordon>
like if you had Vec2, it maps nicely to (Real, Real)
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<alexgordon>
but the ones like in the example don't really map that well
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<cuttle>
alexgordon: what about sum types? the conversion could fail quite a bit
<cuttle>
or do you not have sum types
<alexgordon>
"data" in furrow is like "struct" in C or record types in haskell
* cuttle
wants to make a kinda-dependently-typed array language
<cuttle>
verifying stuff about array lengths
<alexgordon>
no sum types right now, I haven't decided whether I want them or not
<cuttle>
ok
<alexgordon>
I can't help but feel I don't like how they're implemented in any language :P
<cuttle>
like tagged unions
<cuttle>
i bet
<alexgordon>
implemented was the wrong word
<alexgordon>
I mean just how they're exposed in the language
<alexgordon>
there's so many different ways and all of them suck :P
<alexgordon>
like in java you have inheritance
<alexgordon>
which creates sort of sum types
<alexgordon>
in C you have good old union+struct+enum
<alexgordon>
or just struct+enum
<alexgordon>
in C++ you have virtual member functions
<alexgordon>
haskell has data declarations, which are great for building ASTs, but not much else
<alexgordon>
I dunno, it all sucks
<alexgordon>
oh then there's traits in Scala and interfaces in Go
<cuttle>
alexgordon: i like when they're all decoupled
<cuttle>
like
<cuttle>
adding new constructors and adding methods can both be done like from another module
<cuttle>
OOP is so fucking dumb when you can't add even like util methods
<alexgordon>
cuttle: yeah objc is great in this department
<cuttle>
oh yeah
<cuttle>
subclasses and
<alexgordon>
you have an excellent point
<cuttle>
what're they called?
<alexgordon>
being able to overload -init in objc MAKES it
<alexgordon>
java's idea of constructors is absolute shite
<alexgordon>
and C++ even more so
<cuttle>
yeah
<cuttle>
definitely
<cuttle>
initWith and stuff is nice
<cuttle>
lots of typing
<cuttle>
but lots less heartache
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<joelteon>
yea tbh i don't like C++ at all
<joelteon>
really, i thought it would be fancier
<joelteon>
it's just a wrapped C
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<alexgordon>
joelteon: I've learnt to like it
<alexgordon>
with my insanely restricted subset
<joelteon>
eh
<joelteon>
i mean i usually kinda like almost every language i try
<joelteon>
just because there's something exciting about learning a new language
<joelteon>
and finding out how the concepts i understand apply to the new language
<joelteon>
but it wasn't fun at ALL
<alexgordon>
joelteon: well C++ is certainly *exciting*
<joelteon>
it's not even fun like C because it's not low level enough
<alexgordon>
just not in a good way
<alexgordon>
joelteon: wat
<joelteon>
depends on your definition
<joelteon>
of exciting
<alexgordon>
I feel like you're writing C++ code the wrong way if you think it's not low level enough
<joelteon>
no
<joelteon>
i mean
<joelteon>
manual memory management is fun, and c++ doesn't
<joelteon>
do that
<alexgordon>
eh you've seen one dangling pointer, you've seen them all
<joelteon>
heh, dangling pointer
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<whitequark>
"your misplaced faith in humanity is adorable" is my new favorite phrase.
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle, alexgordon: would love to talk to both of you for a moment
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sure
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: you too. Here?
<alexgordon>
seems not
<alexgordon>
probably out converting people
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What's your life look like in the near future? Specifically, the month of November, as a whole.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Chocolat work, etc.
<alexgordon>
oh I have so much stuff going on it's not even funny :P
<alexgordon>
but what is it
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Can you take a break, and/or postpone it?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm at a point where a couple of things are coming together:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'll be in my new home, and still salaried-job-less; I'll be finished with this time-consuming move / travel;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and Paws' work has amassed a nice collection of “delineated” work to be done. (We're finishing up a nice, workable specification of the currently-fully-designer points; we're at a nice ‘stopping point’ before diving into the next unspecified/undesigned parts)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'd like to make a big push, and at the end of November, have three big milestones completed:
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- two, separate, codebases, implemented up to or beyond the point that muPaws is (two, because that helps us triangulate any wishy-washy unspecified parts of the design)
<alexgordon>
well
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
- everything required for those, well-specified in a clean document,
<alexgordon>
the spec was about the only thing that was helping me
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and - a website.
<alexgordon>
spec needs to be done if you expect me to help
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So. I want to hire both of you, as contractors, to work through all that.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Yeah. Spec is a part of, the first part of, all of that.
<alexgordon>
MONEY?! why didn't you say
<alexgordon>
:P
<alexgordon>
^ since we never got to the important stuff in the spec really
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(We can talk more about scheduling later, but I'd suspect we can work through the second half of the spec in less than the first week, of Nov.)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So. I'm worried about cuttle's school-load. I need to talk to him about how many classes he's taking, etc.
<alexgordon>
well I can make time (just less redditing right?)
<alexgordon>
lol, you should teach Paws as a class
<purr>
lol
<alexgordon>
god no that's a terrible idea
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Not just make time; I'd want the balance of your time (basically, I'm completely understanding of your commitments to ongoing product work; *and* I refuse to dig into anyone's Life Time if there's money exhanging hands … but I'd definitely want something like 70% of your work-time for the duration)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
If you're swamped right now, and cuttle's busy with class, I can put it off.
<alexgordon>
well you get what you pay for
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But, long story short, this is exactly why I've been stockpiling Bitcoin. (=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I think it'd be cool to fund an entire language design, with only BTC.
<alexgordon>
if you want 70% of my time, then it'll cost you like... $10 a week
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
driving
<alexgordon>
k
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Ohai
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Man, cuttle needs to come back from class.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Anyway. Let's figure out when the best timing is. I've got several other plans in December, more traveling, more than I do in nov. But if that works out better for you n cuttle, I can work that out
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Then I'll want to sit down and schedule exactly how much there is to do, and how we can parallelize it.
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<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: alright
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
By the end of November, I'd like to have a "presence" for Paws. Website, specification, and working implementation *for what we have so far*.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'd rather have a complete design/spec/impl for half of a language, than half of a design for a full language.
<cuttle>
hi bb
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Read backlog, brb
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: FALL BREAK IS NEXT WEKE
<cuttle>
WEEK
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Mmmm. I'd rather figure out your workload, and have you some of the time, reliably, for a whole month; than have all of your time, for a week straight.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle:
<cuttle>
aight
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: so the real question of all of our minds is, how many bitcoins?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
heh. Happy to discuss payment once I've got some more specifics down, and have a good period of time figured out.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: so,which week is break; and then when is the semester entirely over, for you?
<alexgordon>
oh. my. god
<alexgordon>
just realize I've never plugged anything into this USB port
<alexgordon>
should've put a towel down or something
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Wat
<alexgordon>
I just popped a USB port's cherry (!)
<cuttle>
starting monday
<cuttle>
is fall break
<cuttle>
semester is over sometime in december
<cuttle>
alexgordon: lolol
<purr>
lolol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Him. I'm traveling mid-November. Maybe a month, starting then, ending mid-December? Leaves time for various December plans, and snags cuttle's free-er time
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I feel like we should just camp out in a cabin in alaska xD
<alexgordon>
Paws Conf 2013
<alexgordon>
I'm sure you could arrange that
<alexgordon>
bring cloudhead along and kidnap whitequark
<whitequark>
that'd be cool
<cuttle>
well i mean, first half of december is ramping up to finals
<cuttle>
second half of december is off school
<cuttle>
november is not as busy
<cuttle>
i'm down for alaska pawsconf
<cuttle>
i remember elliott saying if he ever made a pawsconf it'd be in alaska to punish eveyrone for having conferences where he had to travel a long way
<cuttle>
:p
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Of course I could arrange that
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But cuttle has class, and the rest of you have jobs.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Well. If you can wrangle up at least three more of Devyn, prophile, cloudhead, judofyr, jeannicolas, whitequark, and inimino … I'd probs
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
be willing to pitch in on some tickets.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
But that's a consideration for another time.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
“No conf without spec,” that's *my* motto.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: I agree already
<whitequark>
so, two more
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What we *should* do, more realistically, is have a Paws Day *after* another conf that's suitably related! or suitably interesting.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
What about that big PLT conference? I forget the name.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Alternatively, I'm personally very interested in both RobotsConf in Florida in December, and of course the next JSconf.
<whitequark>
jsconf? over my dead body
<whitequark>
robotsconf sounds neat though
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
idfk conference-scene in Europe, but that could work too, since like all of the relevant people except cuttle, me, and Devon are already there
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
STOPITSTOPITSTOPIT IOS HIS NAME IS NOT DEVYON
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
THAT SOUNDS LIKE TREYVON WITH A D AND HE IS VERY-NOT-BLACK
<cuttle>
11:52 AM <•ELLIOTTCABLE> “No conf without spec,” that's *my* motto.
<cuttle>
strange loop conf?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Well. Anyway. Sounds cool to me. I'd consider going in part-way on tickets, for people who've contributed a lot to Paws over the years. Cuttle I'd definitely cover, to most anywhere; and halfsies at least for Alex.
<whitequark>
how much would a ticket be?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I couldn't wade through that book. People kept telling me things about it that just rubbed me the wrong way. Seemed too washy-washy-ick. /=
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So many intelligent people rave about it, though.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Whitequark: obviously depends on where we decide to do this.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Oh, like, confer
<alexgordon>
I suggest the article circle
<alexgordon>
erm
<alexgordon>
arctic
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
itself? lol free. I'm not talking about anything big. Venue would probably literally be a cabin. Maybe we could go camping with laptops. (=
<purr>
lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Backpacking trip?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Alaska is, of course, cool by me. :D
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
U.S. visas are probably a problem, no?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I hear that shit's a bitch.
<whitequark>
ELLIOTTCABLE: us tourist visas?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
Are they easy? I wouldn't know.
<whitequark>
I've never heard of a first-world country where tourist visas were hard to get
<whitequark>
you generally provide them a proof that you have enough money to live there
<whitequark>
and you're good to go.
<alexgordon>
whitequark: first world?
<alexgordon>
do you mean third world
<alexgordon>
because, you've never tried to get a UK tourist visa :P
<whitequark>
hrm, no schengen for uk
<alexgordon>
UK visas are more bureaucratic than russia, and *that's* saying something
<whitequark>
you tried to get a russian visa? why?
<alexgordon>
nah never tried, I looked up the process
<alexgordon>
said NOPE
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: what book?
<alexgordon>
whitequark: we have a common travel area with ireland
<alexgordon>
because illegal immigrants
<alexgordon>
I suppose that must be the definition of "first world problem" - when people want to get IN to your country instead of out of it
<whitequark>
lol exactly
<purr>
lol
<whitequark>
also you're said it exactly like someone from russia would
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
So, unrelated: alexgordon, cuttle, up for some spec work tonight? Need something on my mind that isn't packing, jesusihateeverything
<whitequark>
I wish I could join
<whitequark>
fucking timezones
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: maybe in ~2 hours
<alexgordon>
busy trying to get this to work
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I'm busy here, as well. Probably won't be home until 2:30+ from now.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: then it's settled. break out the wine and dim the lights, we're conceiving a language
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: parser is done
<cuttle>
actually no still has bugs
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<cuttle>
ok fixed bugs
<cuttle>
time to add error messages
<cuttle>
the most important part
<cuttle>
but first lunch
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just got back to the hotel.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexgordon: let me know when you're getting towards being free. I'm gonna drink my unreasonably large latte (five goddamn shots, because I'm so exhausted), and play Minecraft, until I feel a little more human.
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: gimme 30 mins
<alexgordon>
ELLIOTTCABLE: did you get eaten by a grue?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
waiting on a call.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
also, elliottcable is clearly grueproof.
<alexgordon>
'k
<alexgordon>
heh
<alexgordon>
I'm just having a bite to eat
<alexgordon>
did we lose cuttle?
<joelteon>
have you guys ever tried D
<alexgordon>
joelteon: yeah, don't like it
<alexgordon>
C++11 has really put D out of business IMO
<alexgordon>
it's a way superior programming model
<joelteon>
huh, really
<joelteon>
I don't like c++11 at all
<alexgordon>
joelteon: then you'll love D!
<alexgordon>
D is very 2000's in its design
<alexgordon>
i.e. very Java
<alexgordon>
there were quite a few languages after Java that take a lot of inspiration from it
<alexgordon>
like C#
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ughghghthghrhgh
<alexgordon>
there was a time when people thought the best way to design a language was: static typing, garbage collection, virtual methods
<alexgordon>
Go is sort of the end of that line of languages
<joelteon>
well static typing is the best way
<alexgordon>
Rust is the start of the new revolution
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<joelteon>
I like rust too
<joelteon>
it's immensely slow right now but it should get much faster hopefully
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi, all
* ELLIOTTCABLE
rubs his face
<alexgordon>
hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
ughghghrghhg
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
just can't justify this ddis
<alexgordon>
?
<alexgordon>
cuttle: I have something you'd be interested in
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
okay. finally. jesus.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
god, moving is expensive.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I've wasted SO MUCH on this shit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I wanna grab some food. alexgordon: how much longer you planning to be up?
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
so, I have this über, über, über-nice bathrobe I bought recently
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
(matching ones for myself and Chelsea; made by Ugg, it's extreeeeeemly compfy)
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I meant to bring it with me. but ran out of room, shrugged, and left it.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
regret that IMMENSELY.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
all I want in the world, right now, is to be cuddled up in that amazing bathrobe, on my hotel bed, with my laptop; warm, compfy, happy; and brainstorming Paws.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttle: been thinking about ‘insanities’ a bit.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
can make them a little more definite than I previously could.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
maybe all we need to do to achieve the sort of user-experience I was wanting,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
is A) figure out a healthy stratification of errors (think ‘classes of errors’ a lá Ruby, only without an object-system/inheritance behind it),
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<ELLIOTTCABLE>
B) have erroneous situations involve some sort of comparable severity-level, some way of saying “<this erroneous condition> is more or less severe than <this threshold>”,
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and C) have a hard-core mindset, that we convey through to library devs and all the core tools, that ‘Partial results are better than no results’
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
eh
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
not sold.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
mmmmmm.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hello, alexgordon
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
gonna run pick up food, after I dry off (mmmmhotshowerhappies). Then. Going to try to move forward on the spec.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
re-read what's there while I'm gone, see if you can recall where we were;
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
and stack up some questions on the (many, obvious) unfinished parts.
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
brb <3
<alexgordon>
k
<yorick>
and two more in the past hour
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
yorick: Hm?
<yorick>
ELLIOTTCABLE: counting the alas jokes
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hi
<purr>
ELLIOTTCABLE: hi!
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
cuttlecuttlecuttlecuttle
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
alexalexalexalex
<cuttle>
alexgordon: oh?
<cuttle>
ELLIOTTCABLE: sweet, 5 shots
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
hiiiiii cuttle
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
I want to solve programming.
* cuttle
just took a 2 and a half hour name
<cuttle>
nap*
<ELLIOTTCABLE>
here's the problem:
<cuttle>
still coming up from it
<cuttle>
as you can see from me typing "name" instead of "nap"
<cuttle>
wait wtf right clicking on it shows it correctly in the "search for"
<alexgordon>
Bubonic plague spread to the town in 1665 and 67 deaths were recorded. It appears that Twickenham had a pest house (short for "pestilence") in the 17th century, although the location is not known.
<alexgordon>
There was also a Watch House in the middle of the town, with stocks, a pillory and a whipping post whose owner was charged to "ward within and about this Parish and to keep all Beggars and Vagabonds that shall lye abide or lurk about the Towne and to give correction to such...".