<tp>
but you have to wait until both bytes of the halfword are available before it can be written
<tabemann>
yes
<tabemann>
I adopted a far more complex system than this
<tabemann>
to allow for deferred writes and like
<tp>
still, it makes one appreciate how complex USB sticks must be ;-)
<tp>
what about cache effects etc
<tp>
?
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<tabemann>
writing to flash flushes the cache IIRC
<tp>
no, not always
<tabemann>
well, I mean, the code that writes to flash also flushes the cache in zeptoforth
<tp>
some of the newish cortex-m's need a special instruction to be run
<tp>
ahh
<tp>
I have (briefly) wondered about that method
<tp>
but as a tech I dont like to wander too far from my comfort zone at the one time
<tabemann>
I personally find things like peripheral configuration to be black magic myself
<tp>
I mean while youre making clever assembly code, Im probably machining something on my mill or lathe
<tabemann>
whereas I found the systick to be trivial, and the code that actually writes data to and reads data from USART2 to be trivial
<tp>
yeah, I agree that systick and usarts are easy, even for me
<tp>
and Ive been working with peripherals for so long I cant remember if they were ever had
<tabemann>
the part I didn't get was initializing the USART
<tp>
for instance I used to graft a motorola dual 8 bit gpio chip to Z80's, 6802's, 8085's etc
<tp>
i can imagine that peripheral initialization will be a difficult job for a programmer as one must understand what all the bitfields do out in the real world
<tp>
and the inits usually depend on the application as evidenced by just how MANY bitfields there are
<tabemann>
right now I'm mainly concerned with initializing code so that it will serve zeptoforth
<tabemann>
's purposes
<tp>
in the same way that a tech cannot become a programming expert overnight, a programmer cannot become a hardware expert overnight, both professions take decades of daily use to master
<tp>
of course, and all you need for that is a terminal
<tabemann>
which is why copying from matthias works, because what mecrisp-stellaris needs is essentially what zeptoforth needs
<tp>
and manipulating flash
<tp>
of course
<tp>
but even considering the terminal, what speed will you use ? will you use xon/xoff or hardware handshaking (RTS), will you use interrupts or DMA or polling, will you use a ring buffer ?
<tp>
there is plenty to consider with a usart
<tp>
and why use 115200 baud, it's so slow ?
<tp>
I use a minimum 460800 baud only because Screen has can't go any faster
<tp>
if I could I'd go into the megabits/s
<tabemann>
with zeptoforth, I use two different approaches to the USART; the first, on bootup, is to just read one byte at a time and put it in a buffer; the second, is, during PAUSE it grabs as many bytes as it can and puts them in a 16 byte circular buffer, to be slurped up by tasks as they see fit
<tp>
I always use hardware handshaking as it's by far the fastest and least problematic
<tabemann>
but I'm using serial over USB, so...
<tp>
yeah, no options
<tp>
what will you use with the F4 disco as it has no ethernet port ?
<tp>
oops
<tabemann>
the l476 disco has no ethernet port either
<tp>
it has a usb port tho
<tabemann>
yes
<tp>
matthias wrote a ethernet driver for the tm4c1294, works like a charm
<tabemann>
the f4 disco has a USB port it seems
<tp>
Bernd Paysan also helped him
<tp>
it does indeed
<tp>
I have one here in front of me
<tabemann>
I'm gonna have dinner now, so I'll be back later
<tp>
no problemo
<tp>
I see people on embedded forums claiming that usb and ethernet drivers are too hard to write so anything without them premade must be avoided, yet Forth people wrote both for cortex-m
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<tabemann>
back
<clitoris>
wb
<clitoris>
how was dinner
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<tabemann>
it was good
* tabemann
added words to enable and disable interrupts
<tp>
eint and dint ?
<tp>
apparently writing the ethernet driver for the tm4c1294 (cortex-m4) eas easy enough, the main problem was the ti doc was full of errors
<clitoris>
erroneous documentation is wonderful
<tabemann>
I called the them enable-int and disable-int
<tabemann>
*them
<tp>
i have a couple of tm4c1294 dev boards and the ethernet connection is damn fast, but I couldnt integrate it into Screen so use a serial connection instead
<tp>
matthias wont spend time with the tm4c1294, he says it's the M4 to avoid
<tp>
plus the tm4c1294 has more bitfields than anything else, it's crazy
<tp>
tabemann, too many characters!
<MrMobius>
tp were you lusting after an HP 41 back then?
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<tp>
MrMobius, probably not, the model back then only had leds
<tabemann>
I'm going to add a "sleep" word
<tabemann>
dsb followed by wfi
<tp>
as the HP was out of reach I took out a loan for a TI-59 with the mag strips
<tp>
MrMobius, but I hated the TI keys, cheap and nasty
<tp>
tabemann, there are three low power modes, sleep, stop and standby
<tp>
for the cortex-m
<tp>
and the F model is much simpler than the L model
<tp>
but the L model has a ton of extra configs for peripheral low power clocks
<tp>
it's a confusing and complex situation I find
<tabemann>
I'm just planning on implementing a word that calls DSB followed by WFI
<tabemann>
WFI obviously means Wait For Interrupt
<tp>
yeah, or you can use WFE
<tabemann>
what's the difference between WFI and WFE?
<tp>
WFE is wait for event
<tp>
or not ...
<tp>
lol, I havent used it
<tp>
but you need WFI to initiate a low power mode
<tabemann>
yeah, what I'm reading only talks about WFI
<tabemann>
and DSB
<tp>
I know programmers who have spent 6 months trying to get a L model to minimum low power, and it was driving them nuts
<tp>
WFI is the most common
<tabemann>
now my issue is how do I get the processor to generate an interrupt on USART RX
<tabemann>
because sleeping is kind of useless if I can't use the REFL
<tp>
another thing is that different low power modes have different WAKE UP times
<tp>
whats the bottom line ? the USART may take ages to wake up from low power and you may miss keystrokes
<tabemann>
wait a s econd
<tabemann>
Warning
<tabemann>
NVIC numbers 0 - 32 are accessed by NVIC_ISER0_SETENA. NVIC numbers 33 - 63 are accessed by NVIC_ISER1_SETENA, and so on. This is mentioned in only ONE place in the reference,
<tp>
MSP430 is fantastic in that regard as there is only one LP instruction, power drops to really low levels and it wakes up instantly from a key press
<tabemann>
0 - 32?
<tp>
thats right
<tabemann>
there's only 32 bits in a word?
<tabemann>
*word
<tabemann>
*word!
<tp>
no there are 32 bits in a word
<tp>
or 'cell'
<tabemann>
I misspoke
<tabemann>
what I mean is that 0-32 are 33 bits
<tabemann>
0-31 would be 32 bits
<tp>
oops!
<tp>
error!!!
<tp>
thanks for that, fixed
<tp>
it may pay to make up some words to handle that situation
<tp>
Mecrisp-Stellaris users have done that in various ways
<tp>
tip: low power on cortex-m is non trivial, dont expect to master it in a few hours
<tabemann>
about that interrupt page, I'm attempting to wrap my brain around it...
<tp>
i find it easy now, but it took me years
<tp>
and I know I havent got anywhere near to mastering cortex-m low power yet
<tp>
at least I understand how cortex-m interrupts work
<tp>
I means some of the models have literally hundreds of interrupts
<tabemann>
I just want a damn USART to generate a damn interrupt on RX
<tabemann>
that shouldn't be so hard!
<tp>
I use 3 interrupts in my 'touch sensor' demo and even had to alter the priorities to prevent an issue
<tp>
but it works perfectly
<tp>
Mecrisp-Stellaris only polls the USART
<tp>
but lets look at the available interrupts on your mcu
<tabemann>
right now I'm also only polling
<tp>
NVIC_ICER7 !
<tp>
my m0 has ONE, ICER, the F1 has 2, yours has 7 !
<tp>
but thats the L models, much more complex
<tp>
you need dm00046982-stm32-cortexm4-mcus-and-mpus-programming-manual-stmicroelectronics.pdf for that info
<tp>
on the STM32L476 you also have a "low power usart"
<tabemann>
there is not a single mention of "USART" or "UART" in that document
<tp>
which is probably the one you should be using for low power
<tp>
no, it's the ARM core stuff only
<tabemann>
as I figured
<tp>
but vital
<tp>
also matthias has afloating point API in the /common directory of Mecrisp-Stellaris
<tp>
you also need document: RM0351
<tp>
and in that, page: 1374/1880 RM0351 Rev 6
<tp>
40.6 USART low-power modes
<tp>
40.7 USART interrupts
<tp>
Table 250. USART interrupt requests
<tp>
Interrupt event Event flag Enable Control
<tp>
bit
<tp>
Transmit data register empty TXE
<tp>
CTS interrupt CTSIF TXEIE
<tp>
Transmission Complete CTSIE
<tp>
Receive data register not empty (data ready to be read) TC TCIE
<tp>
Noise Flag, Overrun error and Framing Error in multibuffer
<tp>
communication. NF or ORE or FE EIE
<tp>
Character match
<tp>
Receiver timeout CMF CMIE
<tp>
End of Block RTOF RTOIE
<tp>
Wakeup from Stop mode EOBF EOBIE
<tp>
Transmission complete before guard time(2) WUF(1) WUFIE
<tp>
TCBGT TCBGTIE
<tp>
1. The WUF interrupt is active only in Stop mode.
<tp>
2. Available on STM32L496xx/4A6xx devices only.
<tp>
so tons of interrupts for you, probably event flag 'TC' ?
<tp>
but then you need to choose, will you be waking from stop mode ?
<tp>
etc
<tabemann>
WFI seems to put the processor in sleep mode
<tp>
it puts it into ANY LP mode
<tp>
depending on the config
<tp>
but the unconfigured mode is SLEEP iirc
<tabemann>
I'll just bother with SLEEP for now
<tabemann>
I can try to make it go lower power than that later
<tp>
good idea
<tp>
absolutely
<tp>
this is one of those times it pays to instrument the device
<tp>
you could use a USB power monitor to do that
<tp>
but then you get the whole disco load
<tp>
or a multimeter plugged into the purpose provided MCU power option jumper on a disco board
<tp>
thats what I do, but even measuring this stuff accurately is very hard
<tp>
for instance at 75MHz there is a LOT of RF which screws around with analog amp meters
<tp>
so I use a system of metallic film to shield stuff
<tabemann>
back
<tabemann>
question
<tabemann>
what kind of interrupt should I be using for a USART?
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<tp>
that depends on your design
<tabemann>
I just want an interrupt to wake up my application so I can receive bits from the USART and send bits to the USART
<tp>
perhaps the Receive data register not empty (data ready to be read) 'TC' flag ?
<tabemann>
I'm using RXNE and TXE
<tp>
well receiving bits will activate the TC flag
<tabemann>
but I mean is how do I set up the USART to actually raise the appropriate exception?
<tabemann>
(this is stuff I very much am not in the know about)
<tp>
you will also NEED page 396/1880 of doc RM0351 Rev 6
<tp>
ok, I can help there
<tp>
in the file I made for you, you need to open in read-only mode in your editor "bitfields.fs"
<tp>
then highlight "usart2'
<tp>
and look at the highlighted words
<tp>
this all comes from the same source as the reference manual
<tp>
which is CMSIS-SVD
<tp>
youll see lines highlighted such as ": RCC_APB1SMENR1_USART2SMEN %1 17 lshift RCC_APB1SMENR1 bis! ; \ RCC_APB1SMENR1_USART2SMEN USART2 clocks enable during Sleep and Stop modes"
<tp>
if you dont clock it during Sleep and Stop modes then it won't receive any data and can't interrupt on rx data
<tp>
at this point you should be intuiting the lack of triviality in the low power and interrupt setup
<tp>
but dont worry, youre not alone
<tp>
incedentally to do this with "Mecrisp" on the MSP430, it's *one* command
<tp>
and that takes care of everything
<tp>
the power meter drops to 4uA until you hit a terminal key at which point the power jumps and the key is seen in the teminal
<tabemann>
back
<tabemann>
I'm still confused as to how to set up the interrupts
<tabemann>
I know that I have to set TXEIE and RXNEIE
<tabemann>
and that I have to clock USART2 while sleeping or stopped
<tabemann>
but my question is how do I turn it into an interrupt mapped to a particular vector
<tp>
actually youre omitting critical information
<tabemann>
I didn't quite understand the page about EXTIs and such
<tp>
you DONT set TXEIE
<tabemann>
I thought that TXE was the bit set at the interrupt
<tabemann>
and TXEIE was the bit to enable the interrupt
<tabemann>
I'm already monitoring TXE and RXNE for polling purposes
<tp>
you set "USART2_CR1_TXEIE"
<tabemann>
that's what I mean
<tp>
NOT "TXEIE"
<tp>
then youre in for a world of confusion along anyone talking to you
<tp>
this is why I wrote svd2forth
<tp>
I guess you dont yet understand the full implications, which isnt a criticism, this is very complext stuff
<tp>
if you search for "TXEIE" you find a bunch of them
<tp>
but only one of them will actually make your config work
<tabemann>
in this context I assumed it would be understood that I meant USART2_CR1_TXEIE
<tabemann>
since obviously we're talking about USART2
<tabemann>
and there's only one TXEIE for USART2
<tabemann>
sure, there's a TXEIE for USART3
<tabemann>
and so on
<tabemann>
my issue now is how do we configure EXTI lines so that it raises one on which we have set an interrupt handler
<tp>
youre also assuming that every peripheral has unique bitfield names I assume ?
<tabemann>
no, I'm not
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<tp>
good, because they dont (sadly)
<tp>
ok, the proceedure is roughly this
X-Scale` is now known as X-Scale
<tp>
1) enable the NVIC
<tp>
2) enable the peripheral interrupt
<clitoris>
why would they not be made with unique names :(
<tp>
2) enable any (overall) peripheral interrupt I mean
<tp>
3) enable the specific peripheral bitfield interrupt
<tp>
I'm also assuming that you have enabled chip wide interrupts
<tp>
thats the general process
<tp>
instrumenting is very handy
<tp>
watch the interrupt flag in the area youre interested before setting the NVIC
<tp>
it will be raised if the interrupt is activated, but nothing will happen without the NVIC being configured
<tp>
so thats a easy way to start
<tp>
if you cant raise the flag, keep configuring
<tp>
I generally monitor the flag so I know when it's finally set, but I dont set the NVIC until the end
<tp>
the NVIC enable (setena) word is then added to the interrupt for that item like this:
<tp>
: tsc-init ( -- )
<tp>
['] tsc-handler irq-tsc ! \ tie handler to interrupt
<tp>
once thats done, if the flag is raised, interrupt occurs and the interrupt handler will be run
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<Zarutian_HTC>
god damn who designed this mess
<tp>
60,000 people at arm ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
tp: is the mram version of MSP430 any good?
<tp>
Have you looked at the GD32VD103 interrupt structure yet ?
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<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, I think any Ti stuff is good with MSP430
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, but I havent used a MSP430 in a real project yet, I have done a fair bit of tool making for the Mecrisp-Across tethered Forth that uses it
<Zarutian_HTC>
tp: no, I do not suffer from architecturis astronautus masochism
<tp>
if someone is beginning micros I always recommend the MSP430 as everything is so well integrated
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, I like MCU pain, can you imagine what trying to learn the RCA CDP1802 was like ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
btw anyone knows if semi-fast CYMK epaper exists somewhere?
<tp>
or programming a 5000 bottle a day industrial bottle filling machine in machine code ?
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, I seriously doubt and decent color epaper dispays exist
<tp>
the problem is that epaper is not transparent
<Zarutian_HTC>
CDP? is that some sort of CPLDs MCU frankenstein?
<tp>
sure people have been trying for ages
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, no it was just a wierd cmos mcu made by RCA way back
<tp>
I think they had a radiation hardened version so a few went to space
<Zarutian_HTC>
well, I was planning to play around with tri colour epaper module from adafruit at the local fablab but then this virus happened
<tp>
I wouldnt waste your money personally
<tp>
the eink tech makes color virtually impossib;e
<tp>
HP did it first, but the displays are seriously dim
<tp>
remember, NO backlight is possible
<Zarutian_HTC>
no, the modules exist there already. Was from another kit setup there that finished its purpose
<tp>
I use a kindle 'paper white' every night and have since I bought it about 8 years ago
<tp>
I know they exist, but are dim
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<Zarutian_HTC>
no backlight is actually plus. Intention is really low power use with very infrequent updates
<tp>
I understand
<tp>
b&W is great, color is a no-no for eink
<Zarutian_HTC>
had in mind using epaper, mram based msp430 running a forth (mecrisp likely), powered by a few scaps
<tp>
sounds good!
<Zarutian_HTC>
tp: even if colour is done like paper printing?
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, maybe they have a new method that works ok
<tp>
but HP failed to make usable color eink
<tp>
last I heard
<Zarutian_HTC>
b&w might be okay tough
<tp>
they did succeed, but it was too dim
<tp>
b&w is much better, as bright as possible
<Zarutian_HTC>
dim? more like highly faded? that is saturation way down?
<tp>
I suspect that adafruit got a bunch of dumped old color eink and are just selling to hobbyists
<tp>
because light has to pass thru each eink layer with color then reflect back
<tp>
it's hopeless
<Zarutian_HTC>
yeah that module has b&w&r per dot
<tp>
two layer ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
ah I see, I thought they traded resolution for colour
<tp>
b@W is good only 1 layer
<tp>
I dont think they can
<tp>
eink is basically like a egg per pixel, one side is black and one id white, a HV charge flips the egg
<tp>
I dont think they can mix 'eggs'
<tp>
it's applied like a paint
<Zarutian_HTC>
why not? or is it the ink/white mixing per 'capsule' dot
<tp>
i think the latter
<tp>
so they have to do color in layers
<tp>
thats the big problem
<Zarutian_HTC>
oh I see. I would have had a repeating 2x2 tile of cymk 'eggs'
<tp>
youll need really fine tweezers, a steady hand and LOTs of time ;-)
<tp>
and dont sneeze!
<Zarutian_HTC>
I would used inkjet like deposition to get each 'egg' right
<tp>
nyet! thats far too easy!
<tp>
impossible!
<tp>
Id try and find the tech used in the adafruit displays and the brightness etc before adding more useless junk to your 'useless junk box'
<tp>
mine is full, if I buy any more, I'll need another box
<Zarutian_HTC>
one trick i had i mind for having the scaps topped up was to use solar cells like those credit card sized four banger calculators
<tp>
good idea
<tp>
you wont get any less current drain than from a MSP430
<Zarutian_HTC>
i dont mind, the modules are still at the fablab (junkbox outsourcing)
<tp>
hahah
<tp>
hobbysists thrive on blingy news, 100% of their projects end up in a box or on a cat feeder
<tp>
well 99%
<tp>
I used to say that there are no clueless arduino users with MSP430, but thats not true any more
<tp>
'energia' is just arduino for MSP430
<tp>
and the crazy thing is that MSP430 was always the easiest micro to learn from
<Zarutian_HTC>
the trick is to have a slab of plexiglass ontop of the epaper and the solarcells on the edges. Using the internal partial reflection of the plexi to gather some of the light
<tp>
as they come in a cheap dev board with programmer/debugger
<tp>
plus plexiglass will stop UV
<tp>
here in Australia nothing lasts outside in the sun
<tp>
wood goes rock hard like stone in 40 years
<tp>
no adhesive tape stays stuc for more than 3 years
<tp>
plastic cable ties, even the 'ir resistant' ones snap after 3 years
<Zarutian_HTC>
at least you can shade things from the sun here the constant rocking of temp around freezing and salt in the air is terrible for equipment
<tp>
everywhere has it's positives and negatives hey ?
* Zarutian_HTC
inquired a local arial company about some of their fasteners
<Zarutian_HTC>
they said they used maritime or satellite grade
<tp>
it's 28,50 C here right now and raining, humidity is 100%. The mold is thriving
<Zarutian_HTC>
satellite grade as in those used in the spacecraft not on consumer dishes
<tp>
i hope it's better than that used by space-x because I see their 'space' protective foil stripping off every deployment in space
<tp>
nothing lasts, you cant count on it
<tp>
here any plexiglass goes yellow in the sun after a few years
<tp>
but in your area the sun is far less potent
<tp>
I mean we get 1KW per sq metre here
<Zarutian_HTC>
you mean on the second stage? around the engine bell mount?
<tp>
yeah
<tp>
thats all we can see sadly
<Zarutian_HTC>
yeah, no. I mean the stuff used on the satellite spacecraft itself
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<Zarutian_HTC>
not semi expendable like on reusable boosters
<tp>
do they have any on the dragon ?
<tp>
I know theyre using dark paint on the new esats, I wonder how long that will last ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
the foil? probably not. But they dont care about a bit of foil around the gimbal assembly of the engine bell
<tp>
they should, how long until a bit of reflective foil deorbits ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
well the paint is to lower the albedo of them and i guess it will last as long as the sats themselfs
<tp>
astronomy will probably be a dead hobby in a few years, but musk is like a ghod to me, anything he does is perfectly fine imho
<tp>
yeah I know why the paint is there, I hope it lasts
<Zarutian_HTC>
the foil scraps I have seen torn of always have done so in thin atmosphere
<tp>
for the sake of astronomers, personally I think a heap of tiny stars orbiting the earth would look cool, I could tell small kids that theyre the spirits of my big family ;-)
<Zarutian_HTC>
so I guess that the foil is already deorbiting and will flutter down and litter somewhere
<tp>
oh cool, I'll keep a aye out for my piece ;-)
<tp>
it's just Kapton anyway I think
<Zarutian_HTC>
most likely. And from an image from an assembly of a booster they use a bit of aviation fiber tape to hold down a few senso signal wires
<Zarutian_HTC>
well at a place where there is no handy fixture poiny
<Zarutian_HTC>
point*
<tp>
true, it looks pretty tacky to me
<tp>
but I guess being neat isnt important ?
<tp>
"in space no one can see your tacky wiring"
<tp>
and no one will ever have to fix it
<Zarutian_HTC>
it looks exactly what I expect from high iteration production and not some hyper polished glossy space age stuff
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, I'm impressed, I thought no one else but me would have noticed the typical tacky wiring
<tp>
and I guess when one is planning to do 3 launches everyday from 1000 starships that mass production must rule ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
I expect there would be a nice wire or cable holder in the next iteration
<tp>
look how neat 'starliner' is, but it's taken 10 yeas and 47 Billion$ and it's still not working
<tp>
and looks like it may get axed now anyway
<tp>
hahah, starliner wants one billion$ just to mofify the mobile launch platform!
<tp>
modify
<Zarutian_HTC>
I find the look of spacex starhopper somewhat hillarious
<tp>
and that cant be used in their next iteration
<Zarutian_HTC>
grain silo taking off basically
<tp>
well it was test a text can
<tp>
oops
<tp>
just a tin can for a test
<tp>
i think spacex could make a brick fly
<Zarutian_HTC>
havent you watched scott manleys analysis of why spacex is going with that ?303? steel?
<Zarutian_HTC>
infrared reflective because it is shiny
<tp>
i have, I'm subbed to scott manley
<tp>
yeah, it's crazy and looking more and more like the scifi spaceship pics of old
<tp>
they were always shiny with fins
<Zarutian_HTC>
and using a bit of the methane fuel to sweat through the heatsheild pretty good idea
<tp>
i think we need to check musk to see if he's actually from Earth
<tp>
hes way too clever
<Zarutian_HTC>
naah, he is both clever and persistant
<tp>
thats unbeatable
<Zarutian_HTC>
plus he has the cash to spend on it
<tp>
I can personally attest to how productive being stupid and persistent is
<Zarutian_HTC>
yebb
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<Zarutian_HTC>
but what got me to think of musk as not some yet another blowhard was his admitance of he, as the head designer, making a costly mistake
<tp>
which is a very unusual admission
<Zarutian_HTC>
plus, he is the best net troll I know of because nobody can be sure that he is not being serious
<tp>
here in australia a couple of days ago when the govt ordered all non essential business closed, they know about 30,000 people would immediately lose their jobs
<tp>
they advised all unemployed to go to the govt website and apply for financial help
<tp>
when the slow old govt website crashed .... the govt immediately claimed they had been DDOSed
<tp>
everyone else in Australia knew it crashed from the load
<tp>
but would the govt admit it ?
<tp>
no
<Zarutian_HTC>
here many taxes and govermental fees that would have become due are being postponed without interest
<tp>
it's chaos here, we will be like italy
<tp>
and yesterday our govt said they are establishing a 'covid-19 war comittee' comprised of private business and govt people
<tp>
I think it's a move to create a temporary group that people can blame after it all goes pear shaped
<tp>
I bet anyone invited to be in that group will remember they have just begun self isolating for 3 months and couldnt possibly help
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, as ARM is 16 years old perhaps the new RISC-V stuff will be better at handling all this peripheral complexity ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
from various news sources, a few online aquatenses and a local australian expat I have gathered that the australian government and politicans are incompetent twats
<tp>
hahah, thats putting it mildly
<tp>
Id say 'self centered dumbass psycopaths only interested in making money'
<Zarutian_HTC>
more so than the local politican here but the again you can sometimes run into the president running his own personal errands
<tp>
everyone has their own agendas I guess
<Zarutian_HTC>
I mean it was not uncommon to run into a parlimentarian in the hot tub at the local swimming hall
<tp>
but our gov largely didn't have a clue about covid-19 and didn't care. now it's spiralling out of control they are looking for someone to take the blame so they can be safe in the background as usual
<tp>
thats one thing youll never find here, politicians in hot tubs as we dont have any hot tubs
<Zarutian_HTC>
such tubs btw are usually where frank social economic discusdions often occur
<tp>
we dont have cold tubs either
<tp>
we dont have enough water for any kind of tub
<tp>
Im hoping our heat kills covid-19
<tp>
thats the only real resource we have
<Zarutian_HTC>
not even sea water at places like sydney?
<tp>
yeah we have plenty of sea water
<tp>
well sydney has, I'm 1000 km from Sydney and 50km from the ocean
<tp>
and our beaches are now all closed
<tp>
no gatherings of people allowed
<Zarutian_HTC>
i understand the no gathering part but not the beach closures. They arent big enough or?
<tp>
lol, after the govt website was 'ddosed' the govt said 'dont come and visit us, dont even phone us' use the website only
<tp>
as it's still very hot here thousands of people are going to beaches
<tp>
to try and keep cool
<Zarutian_HTC>
right, more sensible then
<tp>
and this is now illegal, too many people
<tp>
in victoris if you dont have a space between you and the next person of 1.5 metres you can be fined $5000
<tp>
Victoris
<tp>
oek
<tp>
Victoria
<Zarutian_HTC>
the 2m seperation distance rule here has started to show some sometimes giggly emergent behaviour
<tp>
lol, how ?
<tp>
are the polar bears obeying the 2m rule ?
<tp>
I must go to the south pole and check the Penguins are keeping 2m apart!
<Zarutian_HTC>
well, right of way checking on asphalted paths in parks, grocery store lines that now have to snake around what was before huge stores
<Zarutian_HTC>
the store is still huge but the seperation makes it feel smaller at the moment
<tp>
ah yes
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<Zarutian_HTC>
re grocery stores: the ordering site for nettó for people to order groceries and get them delivered or pickup went down for a day due to demand
<Zarutian_HTC>
it is locally hosted here in a datacenter. I heard that one shared server had been enough but now four beefy machines are dedicated to nothing else
<tp>
Nettó is an Icelandic grocery store chain that first opened in Akureyri in the year 1989
<tp>
ahh a on-line grocery store ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
one trend I have started seeing is website trimming
<tp>
you order from them and they deliver groceries ?
<tp>
what is 'website trimming' ?
<tp>
you cuts some 'bits' off ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
yeah, well the online part. It is just a grocery store.
<Zarutian_HTC>
optimization to lessen bandwidth usage
<tp>
hmm, how is that done? blocking ip's ?
<tp>
limiting processes ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
delivery or pickup from an elocker at your nearest store
<Zarutian_HTC>
naah, some bored working from home web admins doing js static analyses to see what can be cut out
<tp>
I guess that covid-19 will cause a lot of changes to the way things are done
<tp>
lol
<Zarutian_HTC>
sometimes it is not so bored web site designers with their bosses ordering them to 'cut the fat but keep the look&feel' because their webservers are struggling
<tp>
ah yes
<Zarutian_HTC>
or more powerfull vm instances getting a bit too pricer
<tp>
yeah, so many factors
<tp>
but if the cpu load is 100% you know something will have to be done
<Zarutian_HTC>
not cpu load more like outgoing bandwidth being saturated
<tp>
need bigger pipes ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
plus if your site takes too long to load then you might loose to your competeor
<tp>
sure
<tp>
speaking as a Internet customer I only have a attentian span of 9 seconds
<tp>
attention
<Zarutian_HTC>
bigger pipes or more memory for tcp connection handling structs
<Zarutian_HTC>
0xabad1dea tweeted that the dutch grammar site she is using for learning dutch started noticeably to struggle because dutch parents were pushing their kids to use it for homeschooling
<tp>
understandable
<tp>
the Australia govt spoke of throttling netflix bandwidth a week ago, so I guess someone there has a brain
<tp>
with everyone stuck at home Internet bandwidth use will increase a lot
<Zarutian_HTC>
still quite usable just it feels like the server for it relocated to lunar L4 point or something
<tp>
yeah
<tp>
I have slow Internet of around 35KB/sec and it's feeling a lot slower atm
<Zarutian_HTC>
here it hasnt been that noticeable (isps colocate caches due to relatively expensive foreign bandwidth) but I have never seen the charts at rix go so high before
<Zarutian_HTC>
rix = reykjavík interner xchange
<Zarutian_HTC>
a point of presence interconnect point
<Zarutian_HTC>
internet*
<tp>
hence a lot more local Internet use
<tp>
the isps all colocate caches here too I believe
<Zarutian_HTC>
I think because of relativly fewer people live here the caches are accidentially over provisioned
<tp>
like a squid proxy you mean ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
that is, have more storage and such because any smaller woukd have been more expensive and need reupgrage sooner
<tp>
if 10l users want the weather in california, the proxy gets it then serves it to the other 9,999 ?
<tp>
10,000
<Zarutian_HTC>
would* reupgrade*
<tp>
what speed of Internet do people there usually get ?
<tp>
here is only 100mbit on fibre in the big cities if they pay for that especially
<Zarutian_HTC>
naah, more like CDN caches used by many websites, youtube, netflix and more
<tp>
usually they just get 50mb/s on fibre
<tp>
a yes, it's been a long time since I managed a squid proxy
<Zarutian_HTC>
I have 500 mbps fiber (had 100 mbps but it was upgraded for free so to speak)
<tp>
wow
<Zarutian_HTC>
the thing is 720p to 1080p video looks pretty good to me
<tp>
does the cold in Iceland supercool the electrons and make them faster ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
so I never have used that much of the bandwidth on daily bases
<tp>
thats a lot of data
<Zarutian_HTC>
nope, just fiber to the apartment thing that came about because if the local utility for water (hot&cold) and eletricity put down fiber ducts whenever they dug somewhere to do thirty year mantenance
<Zarutian_HTC>
main reason i got it is the stability of it
<Zarutian_HTC>
no more crappy unstable adsl
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<tp>
like I have
<tp>
plus my copper is ancient
<tp>
at times it buzzes so badly I cant use the phone
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<tp>
still, thats life in rural australia but IM not complaining
<tp>
plenty of consolations
<Zarutian_HTC>
how far away from the dslam you rekon ya are?
<tp>
about 5km
<tp>
I'm waiting to subscribe to Musks new satellite Internet ;-)
<tp>
I should offer to be a early tester!
<Zarutian_HTC>
some rural places here have gone with longrange directional microwave, radio or laserlink
<Zarutian_HTC>
sometimes all three in the same setup
<tp>
yeah
<tp>
i want a starlink pizzabox antenna and self install!!
<Zarutian_HTC>
in one case I heard one farmer went with self installed fiber
<Zarutian_HTC>
turns out the fiber is relatively cheap, it is the digging for it which makes it expensive
<tp>
thats probably quite true
<Zarutian_HTC>
the farmer in question just rented a slot cutter digger and put down the fiber duct himself
<Zarutian_HTC>
it just happened for luck that three km away there was an telecomms tower with fiber backhaul
<tp>
we have mainly aerial power wires in Australia and they have had a centre fiber bundle in the earth wire for ages, but they dont seem to use it
<tp>
I have a friend who has only adsl, and the nearest exchange with fibre is about 100 metres away on the other side of his carpark and they wont let him connect to it
<tp>
thats how it is here
<Zarutian_HTC>
mobile phone mainly but also local transmitter for fm, telly. Not to mention aprs, weather station and who knows what on it
<tp>
govt bureaucracy
<tp>
he could have installed a 1500 mb/s radio link for $3k
<tp>
slower but probably cheaper
<tp>
and who need or can afford a whole fibre optic link ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
wait what? here telecomms are much more flexible
<tp>
not here
<Zarutian_HTC>
for instance it happened to be for this aforementioned farmer that there was an annoying radio shadow for the mobile phones due to a hill
<tp>
very common
<Zarutian_HTC>
he got a linkup because he agreed to host a femtocell that fixed that problem
<tp>
aha
<Zarutian_HTC>
the shadow was not that much but enaugh to cause dropped calls and handsets radio screaming
<tp>
Ive had my own business here for the last 15 years doing wifi, Ive done a lot of solar powered repeaters for similar (non cellphone) cases
<Zarutian_HTC>
which meant that there was a bit more housekeeping radio traffic due it
<tp>
it's very common, I always said that "wifi promotes hill and building growth"
<Zarutian_HTC>
for wifi it isnt that bad but for centrally controled systems like mobile it adds up on those central parts
<Zarutian_HTC>
mobile phone networks are basically mostly radio transcivers with backhaul links to central
<tp>
yes
<Zarutian_HTC>
around 2003 they finally implemented base station to base station links to cut down on bandwidth to central
<tp>
like a mesh ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
very handy for those popular festivals and holiday gatherings where people mostly used mobile phones to find each other in the crowd
<tp>
true
<tp>
all networks and technologies evolve
<tp>
but thats all over now with covid-19 ;-)
<Zarutian_HTC>
sometimes it is just getting rid of bad design and implent something that often is obvious
<Zarutian_HTC>
well for this year
<tp>
i can relate, Im doing that to my Forth tools all the time
<Zarutian_HTC>
for instance in gsm there is the paging channel
<tp>
ok
<Zarutian_HTC>
that channel is used to page the handset and tell it to report in because of incomming call or sms
<Zarutian_HTC>
and it is network wide
<Zarutian_HTC>
orange in germany learned the hard way that this can become a contention point
<tp>
makes sense
<tp>
the paging channel is a polled multidrop system ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
now they partion up their users, based on sim setup, on to four paging channels
<tp>
which leaves less bw for audio which they recover using more advanced codecs ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
well, the only things that transmit on the paging channel are the base stations
<Zarutian_HTC>
when a call comes in there is a packet sent on the paging channel to the handset
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<Zarutian_HTC>
the handset then reports to the closest cell base station and gets bandwidth and timeslots on diffrent channel
<Zarutian_HTC>
that channel handles the audio bandwidth or sms message itself
<Zarutian_HTC>
but now I am off to bed
<Zarutian_HTC>
night
<tp>
nighto thanks for the chat Zarutian_HTC
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