<tpbsd>
but hey, if youre doing software mainly it doesnt matter
<tabemann>
yeah
<tabemann>
right now I'm porting zeptoforth to a different Nordic Semi board, and will only after that's done port it to the dongle
<tpbsd>
plis it wouldnt be hard to solder a bank of headers, or wires
<tabemann>
I figure the two boards will be pretty similar, like how the l476 and f407 are aside from low power modes and flash erasure
<tpbsd>
exctly
<tpbsd>
and usarts
<tabemann>
(this is because the other Nordic Semi board has a Mecrisp-Stellaris port and the dongle does not)
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<tpbsd>
actually the l476 and f407 are probably more different than most
<tabemann>
the port from the l476 to the f407 was pretty pain free aside from the flash erasure mechanism
<tpbsd>
if you were porting between two F or two L boards the differences would only be possibly the usarts and flash
<tabemann>
(which was completely different)
<tpbsd>
yes, different chips, even in the same series often have different flash controllers
<tabemann>
the main problem I'm finding is that when converting the flash erasure mechanism from the l476 to the f407, I hard-coded the changes in basic.fs rather than breaking them out into separate source files, which I'm now regretting
<tpbsd>
aha
<tpbsd>
perfectly understandable
<tpbsd>
probably why matthias has a small number of files in each chip source directory
<tabemann>
that's what I'm doing
<tpbsd>
.
<tpbsd>
├── Makefile
<tpbsd>
├── interrupts.s
<tpbsd>
├── mecrisp-stellaris-stm32f051.s
<tpbsd>
├── flash.s
<tpbsd>
├── memmap
<tpbsd>
├── terminal.s
<tpbsd>
└── vectors.s
<tpbsd>
yes I saw
<tabemann>
back
<tabemann>
just fixed the erasure problems by going back in the log and pulling out my old erasure code for the L476 that I had overwritten
<tpbsd>
you didnt use the SCM for that ?
<tabemann>
I didn't want to do a full revert
<tpbsd>
oh of course, it's buried in other code
<tpbsd>
do you also use git at work ?
<tabemann>
yep
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<tabemann>
hey
<tpbsd>
tabemann, I'm backporting my latest F051 scd2forth bitfield improvements to other chips atm
<tpbsd>
ie : USART2_CR2_LBDL ( -- x addr ) 5 bit USART2_CR2 ; \ USART2_CR2_LBDL, lin break detection length
<tpbsd>
: USART2_CR2_ADD ( %bbbb -- x addr ) USART2_CR2 ; \ USART2_CR2_ADD, Address of the USART node
<tabemann>
cool
<tpbsd>
tabemann, lemme know if you want a svd2forth + assembler equ file for your nordic chips
<tabemann>
sure
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<tpbsd>
ill need to know the exact model(s)
<tpbsd>
of the chips
<tabemann>
both the nRF52832 which I'm working on right now and the nRF52840 I plan on ultimately targeting would be nice
<tpbsd>
okies
<tabemann>
vielen Dank
<tpbsd>
Stats for: nrf52.svd
<tpbsd>
This generates template.xml and all the stats, to customise edit template.xml and run make-stats.sh
<tpbsd>
865 registers
<tpbsd>
2150 bitfields
<tpbsd>
65 peripherals
<tabemann>
thanks
<tpbsd>
oops, delete those, all wrong!
<tpbsd>
nope, theyre right!
<tpbsd>
tabemann, these are the peripherals in the nrf52
<tpbsd>
<peripherals>
<tpbsd>
<name>FICR</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>UICR</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>BPROT</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>POWER</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>CLOCK</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>RADIO</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>UARTE0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>UART0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIM0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIS0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWIM0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWIS0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPI0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWI0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIM1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIS1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWIM1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWIS1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPI1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TWI1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>NFCT</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>GPIOTE</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SAADC</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TIMER0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TIMER1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TIMER2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>RTC0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TEMP</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>RNG</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>ECB</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>CCM</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>AAR</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>WDT</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>RTC1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>QDEC</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>COMP</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>LPCOMP</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI3</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU3</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI4</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU4</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SWI5</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>EGU5</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TIMER3</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>TIMER4</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>PWM0</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>PDM</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>NVMC</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>PPI</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>MWU</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>PWM1</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>PWM2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIM2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPIS2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>SPI2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>RTC2</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>I2S</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>FPU</name>
<tpbsd>
<name>P0</name>
<tpbsd>
</peripherals>
<tpbsd>
pretty packed!
<tabemann>
tpbsd: you pasted a fuckload of stuff
<tpbsd>
it's *your* chip
<tabemann>
I'm surprised it didn't kick you
<tpbsd>
I have anti kick, don't you ?
<tabemann>
oh, where it automatically slows down what you output?
<tpbsd>
besides it's relevant to the Forth youre working on, and the ch is dead quiet today
<tabemann>
yeah
<tpbsd>
yeah, slow release of spam
<tpbsd>
others may be interested to see whats in that chip, not *everyone* here is a PC only forther
<tpbsd>
the EQU file will be delayed sadly, the XML format of the NORDIC SVD is different
<tpbsd>
I made my Nordic SVD2FORTH converter two years ago which predates my EQU generation
<tpbsd>
otherwise a release tarball for the nrf52 would be on my site now
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<tabemann>
okay, I fixed some issues with zeptoforth
<tpbsd>
cool
<tabemann>
know what I should do - make the event scheduler compatible with sleeping
<tabemann>
because currently if you use the event scheduler it will spinwait
<tpbsd>
how can it if it's asleep ?
<tabemann>
what I mean is that it will never sleep
<tabemann>
now the nRF52832 code is up on github
<tpbsd>
already?
<tabemann>
yep
<tabemann>
haven't tried it yet though, but I suspect it should be enough to enable a quick port to the nRF52840
<tabemann>
of course the reason why it was so quick was that there was an nRF52832 port of Mecrisp-Stellaris
<tpbsd>
ah yes
<tabemann>
which is exactly why there's now an nRF52832 port of zeptoforth and not an nRF52840 one
<tpbsd>
there is a Mecrisp-Stellaris port of the nRF52840
<tpbsd>
it's just not on the Mecrisp-Stellaris site
<tpbsd>
maybe you can help there ?
<tpbsd>
let me find the url
<tabemann>
that would be very helpful
<tabemann>
okay, I should get to bed
<tabemann>
if you find that URL, could you email me it? if you write in here I'll probably forget to look at the logs
<tabemann>
and I should say thanks for testing zeptoforth on your f407 board
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<tpbsd>
oh, a pleasure, thanks for making it available!
<tpbsd>
tabemann, matthias asked him in Deb 2019 "how are you coming along with your port to the nRF52840" but he never replied :(
<tpbsd>
Deb = Feb
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<tpbsd>
crest, al the registers take up a bit too much space, pls have a look here and advise which can be left out ? http://dpaste.com/28Z041Z
<mtsd>
Hello everyone
<tpbsd>
heya mtsd!
* tpbsd
is waiting for his delivery of Scandinavian Eels from the supermarket atm
<mtsd>
Ohh, I'll have to look into that :)
<tpbsd>
hahah
<mtsd>
Is it Eel season now? I must find out. Export rules? Quarantines?
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<mtsd>
I have seen the TV show about australian border controls. They seem very strict when it comes to food items ;)
<tpbsd>
ok, it's not really Scandinavian Eels, it's more like 'fish fingers' and some frozen Barramundi
<tpbsd>
mtsd, it's harder atm because of CoV-19
<tpbsd>
I havent been out in 14 days + and so have to rely on deliveries
<mtsd>
We have been shopping for some elderly neighbours here
<tpbsd>
nice!
<tpbsd>
I'm the elderly neighbour around here
<mtsd>
Would send you some stuff too, if I knew how
<tpbsd>
except I have no neighbours, I live in a factory surrounded by my workshop gear
<tpbsd>
mtsd, thats kind of you, Id do the same
<mtsd>
Forthers have to stick together
<tpbsd>
thats right as there are only 42 of us!
<tpbsd>
and a loss off even one is acutely felt!
<mtsd>
Yes, each one is a large part of the collective
<DKordic>
Greetings everyone.
<mtsd>
Hello DKordic
<DKordic>
Nice to see You here as well mtsd.
<mtsd>
You too! :)
<tpbsd>
I'm putting together a update to my old Forth powered STM32F103C8 "developers" binary for 'blue pill users', if the C crowd saw how easy it is, theyd cry!
<tpbsd>
g'day DKordic
<mtsd>
That may be why they are often so hostile. They see how easy it is and suddenly realize all that's wrong with C ;)
<tpbsd>
mtsd, "We are the Forth, resistance is futile" ?
<mtsd>
haha, yes
<tpbsd>
mtsd, lol, they sure hate Forth for some deep reason, even thos who have never actually tried or used it
<tpbsd>
i dont actually care, less users mean less big commercial interest to me
<tpbsd>
I know it's irellevant to those that build their own forth, but I'm not up to that yet
<tpbsd>
so Id have commercial intrests to start buying up forths
<tpbsd>
have = hate
<mtsd>
The interesting things are usually found away from the mainstream
<tpbsd>
so true
<tpbsd>
away from the 'mundainstream' you mean ?
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<rdrop-exit>
c[] hello Forthwrights
<tpbsd>
g'day Zen Guru of Forth!
<rdrop-exit>
hi Forh Master Tech (tm)!
* DKordic
is in --quiet mode.
<DKordic>
Some say that C&co. programmers complain against Inherent Complexity without even realizing it.
<rdrop-exit>
taking a break from busy work around the condo
<rdrop-exit>
Hi DKordic
<DKordic>
Hi rdrop-exit.
<rdrop-exit>
DKordic, not sure I understood what you mean
<DKordic>
I am not sure how to reply to a greeting :3 .
<rdrop-exit>
:-)) the post about inherent complexity
<DKordic>
I am not aware of it. Link please?
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<rdrop-exit>
Some say that C&co. programmers complain against Inherent
<rdrop-exit>
Complexity without even realizing it.
<DKordic>
Scratch that.
<rdrop-exit>
ok
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<crest>
tpbsd: you can leave out dma, exti, sdio, i2c, adc1 and can. would it be possible to put everything not required by the usb serial in source files and load those on demand?
<DKordic>
rdrop-exit: I heard it on YouTube... They argued that more expressive language than C add less Accidental Complexity, leaving the C programmers confused by Inherent Complexity, and they complain about ""parentheses"" or whatever.
<tpbsd>
crest, yes, thats what my SVD2FORTH does
<crest>
in that case it would probably be best to leave out as much as possible
<crest>
and i can run comptiletoflash, send a file, compiletoram to learn about some part of the chip
<tpbsd>
crest, thats a hard one as people dont seem too keen on using it, a few have but interest is generally low
<crest>
people trying out forth are to lazy/stupid to follow a 10 line readme on which code to upload?
<tpbsd>
yeah, it's 9 lines too many
<crest>
is this based on your sample size of one suffering from severe arduino poising?
<crest>
expecting instant gratification and copy & pasteable code samples for everything?
<crest>
do you know how much flash is needed for what?
<tpbsd>
no, just a very low download ratio of the svbd2forth tarballs
<tpbsd>
you load it up and type 'free'
<tpbsd>
or you see a 'flash used' message
<crest>
thats what i was afraid of
<rdrop-exit>
DKordic, that sounds specious, and I would consider most uses of parantheses to be accidental complexity :)
<crest>
tpbsd: i would most likely take a look at the timers, gpio and nvic next
<crest>
followed by other usarts and usb
<rdrop-exit>
C has plenty of accidental complexity
<crest>
oh yes
<tpbsd>
crest, I can do all the main ones and meet your goal of 30kb Flash spare
<crest>
e.g. typedefs adding new tokens to the lexer
<tpbsd>
crest let me do a selection, see what you think ? I'll post it on dpaste again
<crest>
thx
<rdrop-exit>
Also expressiveness is in the eye of the beholder, many languages considered expressive make you jump through hoops to express trivial things
<crest>
but forth is really easy to mess up. if you attempt to write the same style of code as c it will become at best write only code
<crest>
because c encourages you to have lots of things in scope and access them anytime you want
<rdrop-exit>
Why would you attempt to write in the same style as C, Forth is not C.
<crest>
because a lot of new comers don't know better
<crest>
they're exposed to infix and curly braces first
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<crest>
so the first thing they search for are how to define (local) variables to get stuff of the data stack
<tpbsd>
crest, yah, thats doable. You get one of every peripleral at least
<tpbsd>
and my code will take it to about 100kB
<tpbsd>
inc USB etc
<rdrop-exit>
yes, well Forth is very different, if they can't approach it with a beginner's mind and put their preconceptions on hold they'll never grok Forth, their loss
<rdrop-exit>
you can take a horse to water etc...
<crest>
rdrop-exit: it's more like teaching an old horse that some strange new liquid is drinkable
<tpbsd>
we see this behaviour time and time again tho, it's only human
<rdrop-exit>
the best learners keep an open mind and at least try, they're intrigued by the radical differences from what they're used to. Those who instinctively try to hammer Forth into RPN C or RPN Lisp have no interest in actually grokking Forth.
<crest>
rpn lisp can be fun as proven by factor and joy
<rdrop-exit>
maybe so, but they won't help you grok Forth
<crest>
they do give you new perspective on it by making things easy and interesting that won't work out of the box on most forth systems
<rdrop-exit>
that's fine, but they won't help you grok Forth, they might give you taste but that's all, just like Postscript or HP's RPL
<rdrop-exit>
In fact RPL stood for "Reverse Polish Lisp"
<tpbsd>
hahahah
<crest>
i know. i had a hp50g until it was stolen with the rest of my backpack
<rdrop-exit>
I still have a 48GX and a HP-16C
<crest>
it was a strage system but a lot more flexible than the ti92/voyage 200
<rdrop-exit>
The designers of HP calculators were big Forth fans
<crest>
and the CAS functions were so much faster on a hp50g with the arm7 instead of the old 4bit saturn cpus
<crest>
even if hp was afraid to touch some of the old code and emulated it instead
<rdrop-exit>
some of them attended SVFIG meetings in the 90s
<rdrop-exit>
(or 80s, my memory's not what it was)
<tpbsd>
the 80's sucked, nostalgia's not what it's cracked up to be!
<rdrop-exit>
I had a great time in the 80s, can't complain
<tpbsd>
I had a awesome time in the 70's :)
<rdrop-exit>
Me too, those were my teenage years.
<tpbsd>
I was a young man 17 in 1971
<tpbsd>
I watched the moon landing live
<tpbsd>
on a B&W tv
<rdrop-exit>
Me too, at my grandparents house
<tpbsd>
whats not properly reported was that Buzz Aldrins first words were "CHRIST!! who greased that fu***** step ???"
<rdrop-exit>
heh
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<crest>
ROFL
<tpbsd>
rdrop-exit, we are certainly old fossils
<rdrop-exit>
I'm turning 58 in a few days, I'm catching up with you ;-)
<tpbsd>
bummer dude
<rdrop-exit>
c'est la vie :)
<tpbsd>
rdrop-exit, your Forth and my electronics knowledge will soon be lost .... like tears in the rain
<tpbsd>
you people wouldn't believe the things I've seen ... BC108 transistors on fire in my crap prototypes
<tpbsd>
C-Beams arcing all over my shitty Capacitor Discharge Ignition units
<rdrop-exit>
tp Batty
<tpbsd>
hhah, good one!
<rdrop-exit>
oh well, I doubt the world will miss our arcane knowledge
<tpbsd>
true
<tpbsd>
rdrop-exit, thats probably what the builder of the "Antikythera Mechanism" said to himself when he left on a ship with it back in 200BC ...
<rdrop-exit>
I can imagine archeologists trying to make heads or tails of one of your boards :)
<tpbsd>
well if CoV-19 gets out of control, it might be warlords with copper swords wondering what they are
<tpbsd>
the tech to produce even a lame old Mega8 is well beyond all but a few
* tpbsd
jumps for joy, my 4 day old supermarket food order just arrived at 7:30 pm, in the dark and rain
<rdrop-exit>
woohoo
<tpbsd>
ill miss some of that food if society ever breaks down!
<tpbsd>
Kahlua Coffee Liqueur for one!
<rdrop-exit>
cool :)
<tpbsd>
one bottle per customer :(
<tpbsd>
Id rather hoard that than tp !
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<crest>
:-P
<crest>
tpbsd: do you want me do some kind of testing of your blue pill images?
<tpbsd>
crest, I've never been drunk or even tipsy in my entire life
<tpbsd>
crest, no, I test them here, releasing a broken image is bad Karma!
<tpbsd>
crest, this Kahlua Coffee Liqueur is the first alcohol Ive had in probably 6 years
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<tpbsd>
I figure with my age and pre conditions, now is a good time to enjoy some small amounts of alcohol
<tpbsd>
before CoV-19 takes that possibility from me
<tpbsd>
crest, I'll probably have the image on my website in 24 hrs, no promises tho, and I'll let you know here when I put it up
<crest>
tpbsd: thx
<tpbsd>
pleasure
<tpbsd>
I've finished all the improvent migrations and it's looking good, but it's 9:11 pm here so zzz coming up in a couple of hours
<tpbsd>
Ill have a blinky there as well
<tpbsd>
just for users to make sure it's working
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<crest>
: zzz ( -- ) lowpower& multitask ;
<tpbsd>
does it work ?
<crest>
what?
<tpbsd>
: zzz ( -- ) lowpower& multitask ;
<crest>
it would save a little power with multitask.txt
<tpbsd>
maybe
<crest>
multitask.txt includes a sample lowpower task
<tpbsd>
more likely it will just lose terminal characters on wakeup
<crest>
didn't happen to me
<tpbsd>
I havnet played with the F103 much as Im not a fan
<tpbsd>
oh cool
<crest>
but maybe because it was never the only runnable task
<tpbsd>
was the power usage reduced ?
<crest>
i had no way to measure
<tpbsd>
one easy way to get a rough indication is a $5 USB power monitor
<crest>
even at peak power consumption a f103 doesn't consume much power compared what's available from usb charger
<crest>
of course this changes drastically if you switch to battery power
<tpbsd>
or increase the clock speed
<crest>
how can you overclock a stm32f103 without running into problems?
<tpbsd>
easy
<tpbsd>
the F103 is rated for 75Mhz anyway
<tpbsd>
I overclock my F051 to 75 MHz because I'm so used to that speed now after building the F103 diags
<tpbsd>
but a F051 will run at 104MHz 12 months without problems, which is what I did to my first test ubit which is still in use
<tpbsd>
the power usage goes up a lot tho
<tpbsd>
3mA at 8 MHz
<tpbsd>
30 Ma at 104MHz
<tpbsd>
mA
<tpbsd>
but it's 12x faster
<tpbsd>
brb
<crest>
but what about the peripherals?
<crest>
does the ADC still produce meaningful results?
<crest>
i've seen an atmega644p run at 32mhz @ 6.5V
<crest>
even faster directly from a 9V battery (the genius in question bypassed the voltage regulator by accident)
<crest>
the 9V permanently damaged the adc
<crest>
afterward is had about a 4bit usable resolution if you applied the right bias to get intos its new "operating range"
<tpbsd>
the F103 is rated for 75Mhz and everything works at that speed, the ADC has it's own clock, so it works fine at 104MHz on the 48 MHz rated f051
<tpbsd>
one thing that wont work is the flash write if the clock is too fast
<crest>
the bluepill has a 8mhz quartz and i run it at 72mhz which is fast enough
<tpbsd>
on the 48 MHz rated F051 the flash write gets a bit iffy above 75 Mhz but reading it at 104MHz is no problem
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<crest>
how hard is it to reduce to change clock speeds?
<tpbsd>
with the F051 and the F103 at 75 MHz clock, the F103 is on average 3.5 - 5.3 times faster than the F051
<crest>
but why bother if there are plenty of faster chips
<tpbsd>
I dont know, Ive never reduced it
<tpbsd>
a excellent question, the answer for me is simple
<crest>
for a real product you don't want to overclock for reliablity reasons
<crest>
and for most hobbist projects the time lost to hardware glitches isn't worth the few bucks for a fast chip
<tpbsd>
sure, but for DEVELOPMENT I want as fast as possible to reduce loading and compiling time
<crest>
but isn't it easier to just reorganize your source code?
<tpbsd>
the actual product will run at whatever speed is needed but always withing the STM specs, which are *really* conservative anyway
<crest>
sure you could use 1kB or so as write buffer for the compiler
<tpbsd>
my source code is the same regardless of speed
<crest>
compile code, clock down the core, write the buffer to flash and overclock again
<tpbsd>
I could, but at 75Mhz the F051 flash is fine
<crest>
could the MPU be abused for this?
<tpbsd>
absolutely
<crest>
to map ram over some of the flash?
<tpbsd>
I has seriously abused the MCU for periods of a year with no reliability issues
<crest>
good to know that they can stand some abuse
<tpbsd>
well I dont have much ram, but I do have a lot of flash (64kB)
<crest>
i already fried one of my bluepill boards
<tpbsd>
they withstand terrible abuse
<crest>
it has to have some kind of short i can't find because the stm32f103 gets very hot
<crest>
as in to hot to comfortably touch
<tpbsd>
Ive really fried a couple of the chips soldering them and applying hot air
<tpbsd>
but those chips are still in use
<tpbsd>
hmm, you havent applied reverse polarity ?
<crest>
hard to do via usb
<tpbsd>
or you have 5v going into a 3.3v pin ?
<crest>
but i connected the serial adapter and blue pill to different powered hubs
<tpbsd>
even when clocking a F051 at 104 Mhz it's still room temperature at the chip
<crest>
without connecting the ground (yes i'm an idiot)
<tpbsd>
it happens
<tpbsd>
I often run my boards of two suplies
<tpbsd>
just depends
<crest>
but you should have a common ground for serial
<tpbsd>
the f103 I'm building atm has power from the usb and serial applied at the same time
<crest>
maybe my monitor's hub and the desktop front usb have slightly different ground levels
<tpbsd>
probably not enuf to create the problem you have
<tpbsd>
as usual one needs a voltmeter or scope for such things
<crest>
no i suspect i bend or broke something
<crest>
there is short according to my multimeter
<tpbsd>
you can guess with software but you cant guess with hardware, you must measure
<crest>
and the blinky still runs
<crest>
but i can no longer get a usb serial connection
<tpbsd>
so something wrong there
<crest>
or reflash it via serial
<tpbsd>
is that on one of your bluepills ?
<crest>
yes and it happend right after i dropped it an retrieved it by forcefully pulling on the usb cable
<crest>
not how you should treat electronics
<crest>
the usb serial adapter is fried as well
<tpbsd>
I'm a tech, hardware is tough or it's crap top me
<crest>
they both dropped between my desktop and home server
<tpbsd>
one problem with the blue pills was the usb sockets were very fragile
<crest>
and probably got 5V to some non 5V tolerant pin or even 3.3V Vcc
<tpbsd>
probably the usb cosket is twisted
<crest>
at least it doesn't draw enough power to cause the host to complain
<tpbsd>
maybe one pin is high resistence
<crest>
just toss it and use the remaining four
<tpbsd>
id have a gool look all around the usb socket with a microscope and compare it to a good board
<tpbsd>
... or just toss it
<tpbsd>
but it sounds like you have a usb socket fault to me
<crest>
all i have at the moment is a 2x zoom on my mobile
<tpbsd>
magnifying glass, usb microscope ?
<tpbsd>
base of coke bottle ....
<crest>
not at home
<tpbsd>
trained ants
<crest>
i just tossed it away and consider it a 3€ reminder to be more careful next time
<tpbsd>
there is always a way, what will you do when the zombie apocalypse comes if you cant solve that simple problem ?
<tpbsd>
I used to repair $1000 commercial games boards with a chisel, other tech were aghast
<tpbsd>
electronics is tough, if it isnt ... it's crap
<crest>
the blue pill board is cheap china crap
<tpbsd>
exactly
<tpbsd>
they have a number of known faults, many are listed on my 'blue pill' rant
<crest>
i've read your rant
<tpbsd>
it's not much of a rant I know, Im far too relaxed and peaceful to ever be a good ranter
<tpbsd>
but I try
<tpbsd>
sadly china really is the home of counterfeit crap
<tpbsd>
it's just pathetic that they assume that westerners after buying crap once, will do it again and again
<tpbsd>
maybe arduino users will ... ;-)
<crest>
they do because it lowers the start up costs
<crest>
in the long term its probably more expensive
<crest>
assuming that you keep at it and don't switch to better suppliers
<tpbsd>
I'm so old I will never understand it, I see any MCU priced at $20 as incredibly cheap
<tpbsd>
time is the one invaluable comoddity for us all
<crest>
you save time as well
<crest>
if you stay within the crappy arduino ide
<tpbsd>
and frigging around with a clone STM32F103 is to my mind, insane
<tpbsd>
do you ?
<crest>
of course not
<crest>
i tried it once and refuse to touch it again
<tpbsd>
heheh
<crest>
it just runs c code through a c++ compiler with a bunch of broken header files
<crest>
to hide some of C's many annoying properties from first time programmers
<crest>
it's probably better than a basic stamp, but not by much
<tpbsd>
the whole premise is flawed, bit I was around when Arduino first came out, I learnt embedded in 1974
<tpbsd>
people forget ( or never knew) that arduino was initially a intro edu thing in Italy
<crest>
my largest problem with arduino is that it limits the user to what the arduino developers envisioned
<crest>
sure you can write a blinky in 10 minutes
<tpbsd>
then it was produced and advertised for 'artists' with no electronics or programming experience to quickly make projects
<crest>
and it succeeded in that
<tpbsd>
such as lighting for a ice sculpture
<tpbsd>
sure, it was fantastic for that
<crest>
i've seen lots of people who wouldn't know where to start with avr-gcc, avrdude and avr libc up and running
<crest>
with arduino in minutes
<tpbsd>
absolutely
<crest>
they started with an example programm and just changed things until it did what they wanted
<tpbsd>
without arduino there would be little embedded today
<tpbsd>
as real embedded takes a few years to get comfortable with
<crest>
and above that there are all the $fruit pi boards
<tpbsd>
it's hard, with many 'hard yards' r`equired
<crest>
allowing you to waste on of your 2-4 cores on bitbanning your gpio pins in python
<tpbsd>
yeah, the hobby market is now a real income earner for many manufacturers
<tpbsd>
erk
<tpbsd>
python is utterly unsuitable for embedded
<tpbsd>
as is lua, elisp etc
<crest>
but if you throw a 1GHz out out order core at it
<crest>
move all interrupts to the remaining cores
<tpbsd>
but the hobbyists dont know that and the sellers dont tell them, after all for a ice sculpture light it's probably ok
<crest>
and mask it in the linux scheduler you get the same latency and jitter as cheap 8bit controller
<crest>
its a total waste of resources
<tpbsd>
the main problem is the time a GC takes to do it's job
<tpbsd>
people using micropython or curcuitpython wonder what the hell is running at 10kz and intefering with their system
<tpbsd>
and it's the GC
<crest>
yes but they don't care
<tpbsd>
well some do, most dont
<tpbsd>
but thats hobby 'embedded' for ya
<tpbsd>
I mean Ive made 10ee99 mistakes in my career, one learns and improves
<tpbsd>
I have one device that reads a pot, checks the pot is working properly and if it is, it then controls the speed and direction of a wheelchair
<tpbsd>
if the pot fails it brings the wheelchair motor to a fast but controlled stop
<tpbsd>
now as there is a person in that chair all care must be taken, we cant have it suddenly launch off across a main highway in front of a 40 wheeler
<tpbsd>
that never ends well ...
<tpbsd>
I remember one programmer who came down with some debilitating disease developed a speech controlled wheelchair, had a friend build it and then he had excellent mobility for the rest of his short life
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<tpbsd>
it used arduinos etc
<tpbsd>
.. then he passed away
<tpbsd>
his friend took down the website and the source which was meant to be available for others by the author was taken off line
<tpbsd>
after reading about it I contacted his friend and offered to look into it so others in that situation (immobile and not long to live) might be able to use it to get some dignity in the time they had left
<tpbsd>
hid friend said hed taken legal advice whih said he could be sued and lose everything if someone hurt themselves using this gear/software so it would never be available
<tpbsd>
and that was that
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<MrMobius>
I wonder if one of those generic No Warranty/Use at your own risk things would make a difference
<MrMobius>
I always wonder why people feel compelled to add those to things like open source text editors
<tabemann>
hey guys
<tabemann>
it's just standard boilerplate
<tabemann>
<tpbsd> as real embedded takes a few years to get comfortable with < aside from having a very short stint years ago, all my embedded experience has been essentially since nov 2019, and that is only if one considers implementation time, as opposed to time actually working the bugs out, which is more recent
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<crest>
tpbsd: even 2clause bsd and mit license protect the author/creator
<crest>
at least in germany just has to make sure that he doesn't claim to create a proper medical device
<crest>
but that doesn't protect him from some asshole suing him
<tabemann>
I was thinking the whole "medical device" thing is probably the issue
<crest>
it just gives him an excellent chance to will the case in the end
<crest>
but to reach that point he has to defend himself which can get very expensive in most jurisdictions
<tabemann>
okay, time to go to work (which isn't far, since now I'm working from home thanks to the coronavirus)
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<crest>
tabemann: i have the same problem
<crest>
it can get hard to keep stuff especially if you're a programmer or sysadmin
<crest>
with hobby projects e.g. try a new vpn or routing daemon
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<tabemann>
okay, timem to work for real now
<tabemann>
see ya later
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<crest>
"It looks like whatever boot ROM the ESP32 has inside it is testing for a high voltage on GPIO 12. Don’t ask us."
<tp>
Basic is very small so it can fit in a small rom
<crest>
yes so could a minimal forth system
<crest>
but to leave it as easteregg?
<tp>
could be but Forth isnt popular
<crest>
neither is basic these days but it is more approachable
<tp>
the ibm PC had basic in rom, they could have used Forth there as well
<tp>
I think Basic dissolves brains, but thats only my personal opinion
<crest>
it does the only way out is assembler
<crest>
once you learned some assembler there is a way out
<crest>
and the basic lacks peek and poke
<tabemann>
hey guys
<crest>
oh so it does work
<tp>
in 1990 I got a job rebuilding two Dynapert commercial DIP pick and place machines
<tp>
these machines cost around 200K each and they were new, but had sat on the Singapore docks for a few months and badly rusted
<tp>
so I had to dismantle them, they were huge and weighed probably a ton each
<crest>
it would be really nice to see a forth on the gigatron that avoids the existing interpreter but there aren't enough hours in the day for that
<tp>
the hardened slides were rusted etc
<crest>
why did the maschines fall into disrepair?
<tp>
along the way I found I also needed to replace the paper tape reader/teletype with a keyboard so I made up a 8085 BASIC kit to find the codes and make a code converter
<tp>
no, they sat in crates for months on the Singapore Docks and rusted because of salt air
* tabemann
put a thing on zeptoforth up on hackaday.io
<tp>
so I learnt Basic, made up the hardware, cracked the codes, built the converter, repaired the machines and demonstrated them running to the owner
<tp>
so all that was good, and I moved on to other things
<tp>
around 1993 I attempted to learn C and failed badly
<tp>
the lack of a free C didnt help, but basically my brain had been ruined by Basic
* tabemann
somehow escaped BASIC brain damage
<tp>
so I spent the next year actively trying to avoid thinking about Basic, then Learned Pascal, after that C was dead easy
* tabemann
's first machine was an Apple //e, with Applesoft BASIC in the ROM
<tp>
tabemann, you have more specialised 'programmer neurons' than I :)
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
tabemann, re hackaday, awesome
<tp>
so I had to 'unlearn' basic, then learn Pascal before I could grok C
<tp>
now of course I cant see what the problem was
<tabemann>
I always disliked BASIC because it wasn't procedural
<tp>
the lack of a GOTO in C was much of my problem
<tabemann>
even as a 3rd grader I liked LOGO better because it had actual functions
<tp>
I had taught myself the worst possible programming language without realising it
<tp>
anyone unfortunate enough to have read just one of my Basic programs back then would have immediately committed suicide rather than live with the knowledge of what they had just seen
<tp>
the really sad part is that Forth was available at the time but I had no knowledge of it
<tabemann>
I learned Forth in high school
<tp>
I just stumbled across Basic because Intel made a 8051 kit with onboard basic
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<tp>
tabemann, when I was in high school, there were no computers
<tabemann>
the three main languages I used at the time were Python, Forth, C, and OCaml
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<tp>
I left highschool in 1970 I think
<tp>
sure there were computers in the world, they just werent in highschools or homes back them
<tabemann>
lol - I have three tasks running on my F407 board, one that is a two-LED blinky, one that outputs an "*" every half-second, and one for the REPL, just chugging away
<tp>
mainly being timeshare Unix mainframes
<tp>
wow, thats cool, I'll have to try that after I finish the updated 'bluepill developers edition'
<tabemann>
my dad took a computing class in high school around then - they would create card decks, then send them off to some computer offsite, and then get cards back like the next week or so
<tp>
of course things started improving rapidly in the 70's. in 1974 I had my first taste of a 'computer' in embedded
<tp>
paper tape, teletype, on a 16 bit National Semi PACE
<tabemann>
tp: and the two LED blinky is really an event scheduler executing two different "actions" at set times
<tp>
wow, tabemann your Forth spreads as fast as the Coronavirus!
<tp>
perhaps you should have called it "Coronaforth" ?
<tabemann>
lol
<tabemann>
well that'd be rather prescient, since I started work on it last november
<tp>
on your ARM version ?
<tabemann>
yeah
<tp>
wow, how time flies
<tabemann>
I know
<tp>
it gets worse tho, at 96 a year seems like it's only 3 months long I was told
<tabemann>
ugh
<tabemann>
I still can't believe that it's been 17 years since I graduated high school
<tp>
Iknew a guy with awesome genetics, at 91 he would clean the leaves out of his house roof gutter by himself, he had a 60 year old girlfriend, we called him a 'cradle snatcher'
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
now the jokes on me as a 60 year old GF would be 6 years younger than me
<tabemann>
I should dig out the datasheet for the nRF52840 and see how it differs from that for the nRF52832
<tp>
not by much
<tp>
from a Forth POV
<tabemann>
yeah, that's what I thought
<tp>
just the USART iirc
<tabemann>
one thing is that I liked the design of the nRF52832 better than the STM MCUs
<tp>
we helped that guy port Mecrisp-Stellaris to it and nothing much was involved
<tp>
see .. !
<tabemann>
very simple and straightforward
<tp>
nordic make awesome chips
<tabemann>
enabling an interrupt related to the USART was just one bit setting
<tp>
simple ans straightforward with WIRELESS!
<tp>
yeah, stm32 is a bit of a hodge podge of non optomised peripherals
<tabemann>
the problem is I don't know what I'd use the wireless for
<tp>
haahh, I'm sure some applications will present themselves
<tp>
how about a IR temp sensor at head height on your front door ?
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
optomised to alarm at 37.5 to 38.3 degrees C ?
<tp>
(fever)
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
powered by a 9v battery, and woken up with any passive IR
<tp>
lol, and a sign, "to ring doorbell, please place forhead against IR sensor"
<tp>
a microswitch waked the device which uses a medical grade IR sensor from a thermometer
<tp>
a LCD could display the temperature and advise the doorbell will not be rung and seek immediate medical attention etc
<tp>
.. there, Ive just told everyone here how to become a millionaire !
<tabemann>
damn, it's snowing here - and it was in the 70's two days ago
<tp>
wow
<tp>
22,37 C
<tp>
72,49 F here
<tp>
at my desk
<tp>
I'm so cool I may beed a warm jumper soon
<tp>
need
<tabemann>
that's a much more reasonable of a temperature than those you were talking about last winter (your summer)
<tp>
it sure is but it's a anomaly
<tp>
our winter isnt yet here
<tabemann>
what's winter like in australia?
<tp>
mild
<tp>
no snow or ice
<tabemann>
back
<tabemann>
it turns out that very little needed to change for the port
<tp>
exactly
<tabemann>
the only real changes were the RAM and flash sizes, and the way interrupts were configured for the UART
<tp>
want your name on he Mecrisp-Stellaris contributors page in every release ?
<tabemann>
I'm trying to see if there's anything I need to change w.r.t. talking to the PC
<tp>
just email matthias a version that runs on that chip
<tabemann>
i.e. talking over USB
<tp>
ie port the Mecrisp-Stellaris version to that chip
<tabemann>
wait, have to check one last thing w.r.t. erasing flash
<tp>
the guy we helped just vanished, he didnt bother to supply his port
<tp>
I think he was only interestd because he wanted a way to update his python versions over the air