reepca has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
reepca has joined #forth
<tp>
crest, yes on stack *over*flow detection, dunno about reliable tail call optimization but probably
* tabemann
now has defer, defer!, and defer@ in zeptoforth
<tp>
crest you need to use calltrace.fs from common and do a # init.calltrace to halt on a hardware exception and tell you what caused it
<tp>
tabemann, nice, I have no defer in Mecrisp-Stellaris
<tabemann>
I didn't bother with the other associated words that are in ANS like IS and ACTION-OF
<tabemann>
because really, all one needs are defer, defer!, and defer@
<tabemann>
note that zeptoforth differs from ANS in that you can only call defer! on a word once... because that word may be in flash and may be only writable once
<tp>
only writable once ?
<tabemann>
well yes, because flash is only writable once without doing a mass erase
<tp>
Mecrisp-Stellaris only allows flash to ever be written once
<tp>
ah yes, it's a hardware thing
<tp>
the flash controller wont allow it
<tabemann>
so much stuff in ANS doesn't fit an embedded environment where much of the code is in flash
<tp>
yeah, all one can do is try and follow ANS and disregard it where it doesnt fit
<tp>
chuck wouldnt care, he said that 'standards' kill Forth or something like that
jsoft has joined #forth
<tabemann>
I've done things that are blatantly un-ANS, like using b@ b! b, instead of c@ c! c, and having two different here pointers, which can be explicitly referred to or can be accessed in a compilation mode-dependent fashion
<tp>
yes I know, I reported them to the ANS prosecution department for my $50 reward
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
;-)
<tabemann>
I've been looking at something called CollapseOS
<tabemann>
apparently the author thinks that civilization will collapse in the coming decades
<tabemann>
and the only surviving computer architectures will be the likes of the Z80
<tabemann>
so the Z80 machines that survive will form the basi of future computing
<tabemann>
it originally was all written in Z80 assembly
<tabemann>
but now they're adding Forth to it
<tp>
yeah I read that also
<tp>
i think the only chips that will survive a collapse are Chinese clones of the STM32F103C8 ....
<tp>
must be billions of them around
proteus-guy has joined #forth
<tabemann>
hey
<tabemann>
tp: I agree
<tabemann>
if any computers survive, they'll be cheap Chinese MCU clones
<tp>
I havent seen a Z80 in anything for years
<tp>
and I last programmed one in the mid 80's
<siraben>
tp: Do calculators count, heh?
<tp>
siraben, not usually
<siraben>
Haven't seen them outside TI calculators
<tp>
siraben, have you ever pulled a calculator apart ?
<tp>
usually the chip is die bonded and covered in a blob of hard epoxy, impossible to reuse
<tp>
more expensive models such as the opensource calculator has a decent cortex-m in smt and not blobbed
<tp>
but theyre like $250 a piece
<tp>
you can be absolutely certain a $3 cheap and nasty calculator will just have 'the blob'
<tp>
hmm, I actually have a TI34 on my desk, it's awesome, solar powered and quite old now
<tp>
still works like new, no batteries required, Im sure that unit would survive a collapse
<MrMobius>
theres calculators and then theres calculators
<tp>
MrMobius, so true
<MrMobius>
a mid range TI is like a souped up computer from the mid 80s with way more memory and several times more speed
<tabemann>
back
<tp>
MrMobius, Ti always made good calculators, second only to HP (the old hp)
<tp>
MrMobius, I took out a loan once to buy the Ti with the programmable mag stripe, it was just outstanding but the keys were pretty ordinary compared to the HP units
<MrMobius>
I had a TI-89 with a 12mhz 68000 in it 20 years ago that I learned C on
<MrMobius>
the thing was a speed demon
<tp>
wow, that's definitely a serious calculator
<tp>
the DSO on my desk right now has a 68000 in it as well
<tp>
made in 1994
<tp>
by HP
<tp>
boots up in about 2 seconds, try that with a Rigol ARM based Digital Storage Oscilliscope ?
<MrMobius>
nice. I bet its still going strong
<tp>
oddly the bloody main board died 5 years after I bought it new (demo from HP @ $4600)
<tp>
HP said they had no spares as they ditched them after 5 years!
<tp>
I put a search on ebay and about 6 months later a brand new board showed up for $25!
<tp>
that mobo has been flawless the last 21 years
<tp>
I have the rs232 module and use that to dl picture data for my projects, no where near as good as a 2gB/s Rigol, but I find Chinese homemade scopes impossible to use
<tabemann>
okay, I'm gonna head to bed - g'night all
<tp>
cya tabemann
<tp>
MrMobius, I had to take out a loan for that scope
<tp>
some people buy new cars, I buy new test gear
rdrop-exit has joined #forth
<rdrop-exit>
good morning Forthwrights c[]
<tp>
good morning Zen Forth Guru
<rdrop-exit>
hi Forth Master Tech (tm)!
<tp>
hows is life in Manila today ?
<rdrop-exit>
very quiet outside
<tp>
rdrop-exit, I actually live 200km away from the town of Manilla in NSW
<rdrop-exit>
cool
<tp>
it's the site of the World Parasailing competition each year
<tp>
where contestants parasail unassisted over a 40 km route
<rdrop-exit>
neat
<rdrop-exit>
on the news yesterday they were showing a motorized hydrofoil surfboard
<tp>
about 10 years ago a German contestant was sucked up into a stormcloud and reached about 7000m !
<tp>
yeah, theyre pretty neat
<rdrop-exit>
wow
<tp>
thats above the 'altitude of death'
<rdrop-exit>
2 of my kids are into surfing
<rdrop-exit>
I was more into water skiing as a kid
<tp>
sh was sucked up rapidly and blacked out, and her parasail collapsed, and it then fell like a rock as her 'sleeping bag' like wrap filled with hailstones
<rdrop-exit>
=8-O
<tp>
at some point the parasail reopened and she landed unconscious in the bag full of ice
<tp>
when she woke she was freezing and her gear including radio comms was busted but her cellphone still worked and she was able to call for help
<tp>
her phone had also logged the journey inc height profiles
<rdrop-exit>
amazing
<tp>
she got oyt of it with part of a ear and the side of her face damaged by frostbite
<tp>
yeah, incredibple
<tp>
incredible even!
<rdrop-exit>
I had a friend who lost 8 toes to frostbite climbing Choy Oyu
<tp>
awesome, I'll play with it after I finish the new 'blue pill developer edition'
<crest>
printing into multiple 20 or so wide columns would be an other improvement, but i already had enough stuff on stack
<tp>
hence your question re the header composition the other day
rdrop-exit has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
iyzsong has joined #forth
cheater has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
cheater has joined #forth
ornxka_ is now known as ornxka
reepca` is now known as reepca
<crest>
tp: yes
<crest>
but i found what i needed in the mecrisp stellaris words list
<crest>
and looked over your words4
<tp>
cool
<crest>
the code could use a faster substring algorithm but it works fast enough for interactive use
<tp>
Ive just started making some progress on eliminating reading "write-only" registers from the svd2forth pretty print section
<crest>
code like the svd2forth generated one would really profit from compression
mtsd has joined #forth
<tp>
the problem then is the terminal would need to decompress it ?
<crest>
the dictionary contains a ridiculous amount of similar strings after loading all those autogenerated words
<crest>
just provide a word to decompress a counted string?
<tp>
sure, but this is a development aid, it's not supposed to go in the final product, and it's designed to only load pretty print words you want
<tp>
no one loads everything as everything cant be used at once except in a 'developers edition'
<crest>
that's just the lowlevel assembler freak in me talking
<tp>
hey, all improvement suggestions are nost welcome
<tp>
most
<crest>
i once spend most of the summer holidays optimizing a aes128 implementation on my poor old powerpc g4
<crest>
until i had a constant time implementation of the sbox that calculated 16 sbox lookups in 12 cycles
<tp>
programmers!
<crest>
but this was before poly1305 so there was no authentication fast enough to keep up with the vector unit that could run in the three scalar units
<crest>
not even hmac-md5 (still common at the time)
<tp>
I on the other hand am developing a home made copper rivet press to make rivets from copper wire so I get exactly the size and dimensions I want
<crest>
:-P
<tp>
this then allows me to prototype designs without resorting to a PCB
<tp>
as pcb's don't allow me to make the type of designs I want
<crest>
probably better than single layer pcbs with the toner transfer method
<crest>
there are always holes in the ground planes etc.
<tp>
I can easily make pretty good single sided pcb's, thats no problem
<tp>
I have been for decades
<tp>
the reason is that pcb's wont work for what I want
<crest>
why not? what's so special about your projects?
<crest>
just high current or voltage?
<tp>
a programmer attempts to make the most efficient code, a tech attempts to make the most efficient hardwae
<tp>
no, nothing like that
<crest>
if you have the time for it
<crest>
e.g. for now i'm happy with my match word because its fast enough and the code compact and readable
<tp>
it's a construction method to enable use of BGA chips in hand assempled prototypes
<crest>
for the number variables i'm juggling on the data stack
<crest>
oh shit
<tp>
no one does this method yet
<crest>
you solder individual pins on bga chip?
<tp>
I think so far outside the box, I cant see the box anymore ;-)
<tp>
sure
<crest>
ok you're stranded down under
<crest>
the guys i know are spoiled by a two day turnaround on pcbs for rush jobs
<veltas>
Kumool: My guess is that he does not have DROP or anything that pops from the stack, and will only ever care about a limited context of the stack at once?
<veltas>
So the stack fakes an infinite stack
<veltas>
If that's how he is doing it then that's 'garbage collection' according to Raymond Chen, who defined it as simulating infinite memory, but it's the most simple cheap method I could possibly imagine
<veltas>
I am going to have to watch this whole video this guy seems like a proper genius
<Kumool>
yeah, this guy
<Kumool>
who could it be
<MrMobius>
ive seen him before
<veltas>
;-)
<veltas>
"I use almost no comments. They are not helpful. I cannot construct a brief comment or even a long comment that explains anything that's going to be useful to me. So I just leave them out."
xek has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
Zarutian_HTC has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
gravicappa has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Zarutian_HTC has joined #forth
<crest>
tp: nice to see a proper error instead of a warning and lots of zeroes
<tp>
crest, it should make a bit of a difference to the blue pill memory map when I port it over ( I do almost all my dev on the M0)
dave0 has joined #forth
<Zarutian_HTC>
h'lo folks
<tp>
heyhey Zarutian_HTC
<Zarutian_HTC>
tp: you done anything smartcard related? like interfacing with JacaCard or GlobalPlatform cards like SIM (often all three in one)?
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, no never
<Zarutian_HTC>
hmm, what about that secure element ST makes? (dont recall its part number, sorry)
<tp>
no I only use the stm32 MCU's and mainly stm32F051, STM32F103, STM32F407
<tp>
I have a very narrow focus
<tp>
when it comes to embedded. I also do a lot of mechanical stuff, hence my milling machine and lathe
<tp>
smart cards have never interested me
<Zarutian_HTC>
so more in the direction of mechatronics then
<tp>
always, since my earliest days. I'm quite pragmatic, I just can't get interested in something abstract
<tp>
and the real world consists of mechanical/electronic interfaces
<tp>
and to me a smart card is just a mcu/flash stuck in a plastic card with almost no useful pins brought out. Far easier for me to directly deploy a 32QFN
<Zarutian_HTC>
some hacker-/maker-spaces/workshops use them on machines that require some modicum of training to handle safely. But you dont frequent such places deeming from your rants.
<tp>
no, because there arent any within at least 200 km and probably 1000km, and I probably have heaps more useful equipment than they do
<tp>
frankly I'm exactly the kind of person youd probably never find at those places
<Zarutian_HTC>
yeah, you got something I dont, cheapish space
<tp>
well I live in a shed, not a house
<Zarutian_HTC>
throw up a shed from steel frame and corrucated roof sheets and you got place for space demanding equipment
<tp>
my walls and roof are metal and the main factory area is a unbroken rectangle of 20m*15m with a polished flat concrete floor and the roof peak is about 15m high
<tp>
and it's full of stuff!
<Zarutian_HTC>
well, any structure here that isnt made from rebarred concrete or proper timber is shedish here :)
<tp>
i prefer this to a 'loungeroom' with a TV and cupboards full of tiny porcelain penguins or cats or the kind of things that women find collectable
<Zarutian_HTC>
right, would call that a shed more of an hangar or skemma
<tp>
you have some *seriously proper* timber buildings there from what Ive seem
<Zarutian_HTC>
just yesterday winds were around 20 metres per sec, peak though
<tp>
lol, apart from the access on the long side being controlled by three huge roll up doors, it could be a hangar, but as it is no aircraft can fit thru any of those doors
<tp>
theyre designed to take trucks with shipping containers on them
<Zarutian_HTC>
but it isnt unheard of that winds go up to USA hurricane speeds in the worst but semiregular winterstorms
<tp>
20 metres per sec ! my doors couldnt withstand that!
<tp>
hence your old wooden buildings are *very solid*
<Zarutian_HTC>
one funny thing that happens regularly here, related to tech, is that foreign companies send samples of equipment meant to be outdoors
<Zarutian_HTC>
telly attennas and the like
<tp>
for environmental fast testing ?
<tp>
they age at 100x the rate in their countries ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
such is deemed bare minimum base level if it manages to survive two years
<Zarutian_HTC>
pretty much
<tp>
such is the effect of 20 metres per sec winds!
<Zarutian_HTC>
add in sea saltiness and relentless thermal cycling
<tp>
sounds awesome!
<Zarutian_HTC>
it is remarkable how "quality" stuff made for other countries is like chineseum crap here
<tp>
no wonder Viking were tough
<tp>
I can imagine
<Zarutian_HTC>
the usual advice for budding companies wanting to try out stuff is for them to follow satellite spacecraft design requirements. That is ofren met with incredulaty.
<Zarutian_HTC>
s/stuff/stuff here/
<tp>
how long does spacecraft rated mechanical gear last there ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
surprisingly long time
<tp>
lol, "Id like to buy a space rated TV antenna please ?"
<Zarutian_HTC>
well the vaccum rating might be omitted (one never knows though) but essentially yes
<tp>
and might need to be strengthened to be self supporting in ground level gravity ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
you forgot g forces rating for rocket launches and such
<tp>
it might be rolled up for that ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
sure, but the vibro rating is pretty accurate too. Some of these tv airials vibrate like mad in some "gales"
<tp>
oh yeah
<tp>
especially in hurricane speed winds
<Zarutian_HTC>
then add in hails and near frozen sleeting and it is pretty accurate
<tp>
I suppose this weather is when Vikings go out for their exercise ?
<tp>
probably with leg weights ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
horizational icefangs is something to see
<tp>
hah, I hate Git, but my hate of it may be a bit unfounded, much as my dislike for C is
<Zarutian_HTC>
leg weights? you mean propper and good hobnailed boots, no?
<tp>
oh oh, like stalactites from a cave doing 200 kph ?
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, um, er, yeah .... I think so
<Zarutian_HTC>
naah, they can just fuck with your perception
<tp>
Australians wear cheap soft 'thongs' usually
<Zarutian_HTC>
oh, flops. Makes one feel floaty during some operations or activity
<tp>
unless walking in the outback, then your boots without hobs would be good to resist the needle sharp "spinifex" bushes that seem to penetrate most shoes
<tp>
hahah, due to the lack of weight ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
this is, in part, a programming channel, no? ;3
<tp>
how many are killed per year by "horizational icefangs" ?
<tp>
reputedly
<Zarutian_HTC>
none as those are not spearing about like you think
<tp>
I just copy tabemanns git stuff into a fossil repo using a "git pull" but lately git kept refusing to update insisting two files had been changed by me and must be commited forst
<tp>
so I blamed it on git being "gittish" for a while, then decided to see if fossil would agree, and yep, I changed them both ...
<tp>
and forgot about one change
<Zarutian_HTC>
ya sure felt dense as stone then, no?
<tp>
oh the "horizational icefangs" just grow in place that way ?
<tp>
no, I'm always learning
<tp>
a stone doesnt know it's dense :)
<Zarutian_HTC>
yebb, splendidly for some photo opertunities to visual bendy things
<Zarutian_HTC>
reminds me, saw this in relation to corona: its spread will be determined by how dense the population is, in both senses
<tp>
hahah
<tp>
density squared ?
<tabemann>
hey guys
<tp>
hey tabemann !
<tabemann>
Zarutian_HTC, it's hitting South Dakota quite heavily right now, proportionate to population size, despite it not being dense
<tp>
tabemann, seems we have some excellent embedded Forth improvements and additions going on lately
<tabemann>
that's because the gov of South Dakota refused to put in "safer at home" in place
<tabemann>
tp: yep, now DEFER/DEFER!/DEFER@ and also made an optimization that made my pull_tos, aka DROP, operation take up just 16 bits as opposed to 32
<tp>
nice
<tabemann>
time for dinner though - bbiab
<tp>
I've reduced the size of my memmap.fs by restricting the pretty prints of write only registers to a warning
<tp>
no problemo
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, you know the 'IR stabilised' sticky tape made for outdoor use ?
<Zarutian_HTC>
tp: no. Havent seen such
<tp>
Zarutian_HTC, we tried all the brands we could get on our waveguide slots but found they all failed and came unstuck after about 3 years in the Australian sun
<Zarutian_HTC>
aah, you want the uv resistant stuff
<tp>
it's just a wide tape with one side coated with glue, like 'masking tape' for sealing cardboard boxes for shipping
<tp>
thats whet we got, but it didnt last
<tp>
we didnt get any 'sapace rated' tape tho as our waveguides sold for only $100
<tp>
-a
<tp>
it's not a problem now as I dont do wifi anymore
<Zarutian_HTC>
airplane fiber tape with alumnium backing and better glue is usually what does the job
<tp>
lol, cant use that over a waveguide slot
<Zarutian_HTC>
oh, you want to let rf through
<tp>
aluminium has a nasty habit of stoping radio waves
<tp>
yeah, thru the slots
<tp>
so it had to be transparent to 2 - 6 Ghz frequencies
<Zarutian_HTC>
two part superglue and uv resistant plastic ribbon would be my solution
<tp>
in the end, we just left the slots open and made sure water could run in the slots and out the bottom of the waveguide. I waterproofed the transmitting element in the base of the waveguide and that seemed to fix problems
<Zarutian_HTC>
this was for structural or just ingress protection?
<tp>
ingress protection only
<tp>
I could stand on a waveguide and not damage it
<tp>
theyre made out of roll formed zinc plated steel with a seam (joining) and the slots are laser cut
<tp>
Id fit end caps, and the transmitting element and thats it
<tp>
they are a awesome antenna
<Zarutian_HTC>
like bigclivedotcom says: always think of drainage even you are sure no water could get in
<tp>
thats true
<Zarutian_HTC>
directional long range?
<tp>
I say, "no man can stop the river, bend like a reed and survive"
<tp>
yes, 11dBm so makes wifi useful over a couple of kilometers
<Zarutian_HTC>
"rain can go upwards to" is my reason
<tp>
hahah
<Zarutian_HTC>
done anything with laser links?
<tp>
I had one client phone that my antenna wasnt reliable as he had one on a mountain top and it's output had fallen by 50%. I suggested he go up the mountain, have a look and get back to me.
<tp>
after looking he found that wind had snapped the base of the antenna off, and it was hanging upside down by the cable and pointing in the original direction
<tp>
no, never any optical links since I was about 12 years old
<Zarutian_HTC>
saw one project many years back that used an calculator lcd, a laser pointer, a color filter, a shadow box, and a photo transistor to attain around 12 mbps
<tp>
I have always admired the OSS RED led comms design that reused 10mb/s ethernet link cards tho
<Zarutian_HTC>
and that over more than 4 kilometers
<tp>
wow, thats a LOT
<tp>
probably the laser
<Zarutian_HTC>
yeah, but the guys doing the project hated it because you needed to aim it pretty accurately
<Zarutian_HTC>
it was a green laser but well below safety limits
<tp>
I was about to say the alignment would have been pretty hard if the laser was properly collimated
<tp>
I used to sell 24MHz radio links
<tp>
they were serious kit and had a 3.5 degree beam angle
<tp>
and even 3.5 degrees is pretty hard to line up over 100m