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<tabemann>
tp: I have realized that writing a disassembler for zeptoforth is going to be an absolutely huge task
<tp>
tabemann, so is that a problem ?
<tp>
tabemann, I mean youre a absolutely huge task killing programmer ///
<tabemann>
it just means that work on the rest of zeptoforth will have to be put on hold for a while
<tabemann>
right now I'm on ADD
<tp>
Im sorry to hear that youre A.D.D.
<tabemann>
lol
<tp>
:)
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<tabemann>
aaagggh
<tp>
as a minimally competent programmer, if I ever was to write my own Forth, I think I'd create the minimum useful dictionary then make a assembler and dissasembler to help me with the rest
<tabemann>
there's an "add register to SP" in addition to an "add immediate to SP"
<tabemann>
just ADD alone is kicking my ass
<tp>
i think writing the dissambler woul be really useful for you and Zeptoforth
<tabemann>
and then there's ADR, which is essentially "add immediate to PC"
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<tabemann>
it'll be useful for certain; it'll also be a pain to write
<tabemann>
of course I will probably know the Thumb-2 instruction set through and through by the time I am done
<tp>
and a lot of your Forth words may soon be in assembly once you do
<tp>
you really need an assembler also :)
<tabemann>
my assembler is gas
<tp>
i know
<tp>
but ask youself, why does matthias write an assembler for every one of his forths ?
<tp>
he also has GAS
<tabemann>
I suppose I will - once the disassembler is done
<tp>
you may need to do them in tandem ?
<tp>
theyre kinda interconnected ?
<tp>
I think matthias does them very early on to assist creating all the rest of his dictionary, and trust me, Matthias HATES cortex-m assembly
<tp>
he hates cortex-m is why
<tp>
matthias only loves msp430 and risc-v assembly afaik
<tabemann>
I'm quickly learning how insane cortex-m assembly is
<tabemann>
these addressing modes are ridiculous
<tabemann>
something like MIPS would be so much easier to write a disassembler for
<tp>
i guess matthias feels the same
<tp>
take thumb1
<tp>
looks like one of his first words was registerliteral,
<tp>
once he found out that thumb1 cant do a 32 bit cond jump, he wrote registerliteral, ... end of problem
<tp>
oops
<tp>
once he found out that thumb1 cant do a 32 bit register load, he wrote registerliteral, ... end of problem
<tp>
Mecrisp-Stellaris for cortex.m0 still has the limited cond jump problem
<tabemann>
back
<tp>
he could have fixed it he said, but it's too wasteful
<tabemann>
zeptoforth has the same problem
<tp>
the limited cond jump problem is easly user fixed tho
<tabemann>
i.e. break out the code into a separate word
<tp>
yes
<tp>
I've done that a few times, in reality not many, in fact so few that when I see the 'jump too far' message, i'm usually WTF ?
<tp>
it's usually associated with hardware
<tp>
unlike when I see 'stack underflow' i'm like "what did I do this time?"
<tabemann>
practically the only times I get that are when I've corrupted the compile-time data stack
<tabemann>
I've never, as far as I can recall, gotten that from too long of an actual branch
<tp>
in actual projects I get it a bit as I often pass parameters on, such as error flags etc
<tp>
not good practice I know but I prefer the stack to register use
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<rdrop-exit>
hi crab1, morning reading while waiting for lunch
<corn>
fun fun
<rdrop-exit>
you?
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<corn>
trying to find new approaches to programming, as per usual
<rdrop-exit>
cool
<corn>
Also have an Ensoniq EPS 16+ (sampling keyboard from the 90's) that I bought recently and I want to figure out how easy it would be to write a custom OS for it
<rdrop-exit>
wow
<corn>
hm?
<rdrop-exit>
I'm totally clueless when it comes to electronic music tech
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<WilhelmVonWeiner>
morning Forth
<mtsd>
Good morning
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<rdrop-exit>
c[] godd afternoon Forthians
<rdrop-exit>
*good
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<mark4>
cd #microchip
<mark4>
blargh wrong window and why did i put # lol
<mark4>
crossing bash and irc to get things done faster :)
<mark4>
almost have my PCI32 assembler finished, just have to do the encodings for the branching opcodes
<mark4>
which will need the local label facility im currently working on
<MrMobius>
mark4, nice. what are you doing with pic32?
<mark4>
its a GPS tracking system that is used by a bunch of car auction sites, the put one of the trackers in each car and track it from the time its shipped in to the time it is shipped out
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<mark4>
its being MrMobius do you work with pic32s?
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<MrMobius>
mark4, not really. I lost interest when I found out the free version of the compiler is locked down and you dont get the MIPS16 stuff
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<mark4>
MrMobius, actually its 100% open source and you can rebuild it with the optimizer enabled :)
<mark4>
thats kind of a big secret or something
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<MrMobius>
mark4, right someone was telling me they had a back and forth with microchip that was not very pleasant before they relented and sent the source
<MrMobius>
or the micromite or minimite or whatever its called has them prebuilt
<MrMobius>
but definitely not impressed by them doing that. I prefer other stuff even if their unoptimized free compiled is faster
<MrMobius>
I only got interested again when I had a project that would be done in assembly
<MrMobius>
got some pic32mm and pic32mx parts in dip but havent hooked anything up yet
<mark4>
my assembler is actually specific to the mx :)
<mark4>
its not generic
<mark4>
the mx is based on mips32 R2
<MrMobius>
the mx in dip is easily the most impressive thing you can get in a throughhole package
<MrMobius>
I just wish the XIP stuff worked
<mark4>
heh
<mark4>
word of advice, download harmony, put it on a thumb drive, take it into your back yard and BURN IT !
<MrMobius>
what made you want to make your own assembler?
<mark4>
plan to write a forth :)
<MrMobius>
lol
<mark4>
cannot decide if i want DTC or STC
<mark4>
my x86 forth is DCT but my arm thumb 2 is SCT
<mark4>
DTC STC
<mark4>
man i cant type
<MrMobius>
hehe
<MrMobius>
you do have an incredible amount of memory so maybe STC is the way to go
<MrMobius>
at least by throughhole standards. youre probably using the smd stuff
<mark4>
the ones i have are 32k ram and 512k flash
<mark4>
we also have a external NVM device with 32 buffers of 64k each lol
<MrMobius>
how are you accessing that?
<mark4>
i wrote the drivers to read/write that and because were porting from an arm device that had a built in eeprom i wrote a compatability layer on to of my NVM code to emulate the old eeprom
<mark4>
i2c
<MrMobius>
ah
<MrMobius>
thats pretty slick
<mark4>
i wrote the i2c driver for that plus the emulation layer
<mark4>
and the guy doing the bootloader code thought that meant i was writing the internal flash writing code lol
<mark4>
so i did that doo :/
<mark4>
i just wish i could get flash writs working on my frdm-k64f board
<mark4>
soon as i try doing a flash write there the processor goes out to lunch or something
<mark4>
been about 8 months since i touched it, i was that frustrated with it
<mark4>
even on the NXP forums everyone that looked at it was stumped as to why it was not working
<mark4>
you ever work with NXPs FRDM boards?
<mark4>
if i can get that flash write working the plan is to port my T4 arm compiler to it and then write drivers for every single peripheral on there
<mark4>
including the CAN stuff
<mark4>
i know nothing of can
<MrMobius>
Ive never worked with them
<MrMobius>
do you have to jump to ram while youre writing to flash?
<mark4>
yes
<mark4>
and im doing that
<mark4>
actually EVERYTHING is in flash to set up the write, then i call a small ram routine that sets the "DO THIS!!!" bit and then waits for the operation to clear
<mark4>
soon as i hit the do this bit... BOOOM out to lunch
<mark4>
well, i can single step it just fine if i remember correctly
<mark4>
but nothing is written
<mark4>
why is there never a search bar on github.com now
<mark4>
fucking m$ screwing things up again
<MrMobius>
thats rough when you get stuck like that
<MrMobius>
community is one of the top things to consider when you are looking at hardware IMO
<MrMobius>
there is usually also some sort of safety mechanism to prevent you from writing to flash that has to be switched off
<mark4>
my flash write code is ABSOLUTELY PERFECT according to the documentation and every single pair of eyes that has gone over it
<mark4>
it just doesnt work
<mark4>
i am absolultey NOT using ONE SINGLE LINE of ANY nxp library code
<mark4>
nor will I ever do that
<mark4>
their code is generic, one HUGE FUCKING SIZE fits all
<mark4>
you cant pay me to use NXP code
<mark4>
lol
<MrMobius>
heh
<MrMobius>
maybe you could use it to write to flash then chop it down until you had the minimal working example
<MrMobius>
also I dont understand why anyone takes the library approach in embedded. I thought C compilers were smart enough to only include what you need if the library isnt precompiled
<mark4>
nope their code is horrendously fucking obfuscated doing all kinds of hardware probing to find out what system its running on, something that should be 5 lines of code turns into 4k of bullshit
<mark4>
fuck that lol
<mark4>
the problem is they are offloading compile time shit to run time
<mark4>
because of a) lazyness AND b) incompetence
<MrMobius>
they probably also care about getting it up and running quickly for users
<MrMobius>
detecting that at runtime is just one less thing newbies can mess up since you cant trust them to supply the appropriate flag at compile time
<mark4>
unfortunately the lowest common denominator in this case is NXP develoeprs themselves
<mark4>
and nxp gives absolutely NO support what so ever
<mark4>
they offload 100% of their support to the community
<mark4>
and... nobody in the community can tell me why my code fails
<mark4>
i do like the nxp chips, i just HATE that the only way you can use them is with the "#include <easy-button.h>
<mark4>
there it does everything for you yay!
<MrMobius>
I guess if you installed the library long enough to write to write to flash and single stepped the write routine to gain its secrets, you might be a hero in the community
<MrMobius>
this does seem like a common complaint though. I assume every company just lets interns write the code
<mark4>
no because the simple 5 step operation takes over an hour to single step through it does so much bullshit
<MrMobius>
can you set a break point after the initialization and only single step the flash writing?
<mark4>
and when they are reading this register, masking it, shifting it, reading that register, masking it, shifting it, xoring it, reading another, multiplying it by some seemlingly random number and adding it to the result then using that as a parameter to a function that does somethin equally undecernable... . . ad infinitum
<mark4>
no fucking way to see what they are doing, why or how
<mark4>
thats why i basically have not touched this in about 8 months
<mark4>
THAT fucking frustrated over the complete and utter lack of support
<mark4>
yea your code looks good.
<mark4>
but it doesnt work
<mark4>
cant help you mate. im stumped
<mark4>
community is good. NXP are dickheads
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<MrMobius>
sounds almost as bad as forth :P
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<mark4>
forth is trivial
<mark4>
its designed not thrown together by coder monkeys
<mark4>
:)
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<tp>
wow, awesome insight into NXP
<tp>
Im glad I only have a couple of small boards with NXP now
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<corn>
greetings, forth folks
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<veltas>
I'm usually around at this time and very few others are unfortunately
<mark4>
im not all here
<mark4>
:)
<corn>
sad, I was hoping for a party
<mark4>
if it takes 2 to tango, 3 must be a party
<corn>
well if anyone's tangoing, it has to be you two, I'm an incompetent dancer
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* crc
always lurks quietly watching the chat
<corn>
crc is terrible
<corn>
just like his retroforth
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<mark4>
its not his, he adopted it :)
<crc>
mark: the current retro (since v10) is all mine
<crc>
I moved on from the tcn based code over a decade ago
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<corn>
see it's all his
<corn>
even the iOS version
<mark4>
i know :)
<mark4>
have you heared from TCN?
<mark4>
i did a google for him a few times over the years, he seems to have abandoned computers entirely
<crc>
not in a few years, since he disconnected everything
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<mark4>
wonder why he did that
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<corn>
Who is TCN
<crc>
tom novelli, creator of retroforth's original 4 codebases, among other things
<mark4>
also helped me greatly when i started coding isforth which i later renamed to x4
<mark4>
because i also have a thumb version called t4
<mark4>
want x64 and a64 too
<mark4>
oh i have a totally unreleased a4 too which is 32 bit arm with no thumb2 code
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<mark4>
so i ordered a new m-tech laptop a few weeks ago but they were out of stock, the one i ordered was with the 9th gen i7 but the new stock has the 10th gen so.. free upgrade yay
<mark4>
i ordered it with one 500g 2.5 inch sata ssd and one 2t nvme ssd
<mark4>
well. i taked to the tech and he said get two 1T ssds because i can fit all 3 in there and it would not cost more so i said go ahead
<mark4>
the machines are built to order
<tp>
sounds good :)
<mark4>
problem is... they didnt have two 1t nvme's so they upgraded me to two 2t nvme's lol
<tp>
Im still using a Thinkpad X60s as I hate 'chicklet' keypads and it's hard to get a laptop thats fully Linux supported
<tp>
when my Thinkpad dies it will be my last lappie
<mark4>
i bought a asus laptop about a year ago and a few months ago i started noticing things going wrong such as usb ports not behaving right. i would have to unplug my mouse dongle and plug it back in
<mark4>
then i had a complete system failure and lost everytthing
<mark4>
spent the next 2 weeks attempting to do reinstalls on it. finallt got linux mint installed and ran with that for 2 weeks
<mark4>
but ubuntu makes my teeth itch in any incantation
<tp>
yeah, laptops stopped being reliable many years ago in my observation
<mark4>
so tried to reinstall gentoo.. got that fully working
<corn>
I've had an HP Envy for ~6 years and it's worked for anything I throw at it
<mark4>
laptop has not been giving me issues but i dont trust it fully any more
<tp>
same here, I run linux-MX on the thinkpad now and it's flawless
<corn>
I bought a Pinebook Pro but that hasn't come yet so we'll see how that goes
<mark4>
well asus has the lowest failure raite of any laptop unless they put them in my hands lol
<tp>
in fact MX even seems to have fixed my battery charge issues
<tp>
i didnt ever expect that to happen
<corn>
what's linux-MX?
<mark4>
im very hard on laptops
<mark4>
m-tech laptops last me longer than any others
<mark4>
and every single order is custom built to order
<tp>
the laptop has pretty much had a orange light on the battery pack status since I got it, but now it's green and seems to estimate charge properly
<mark4>
if i had gone overboard on all the options it would have cost me over 5k
<mark4>
i didnt lol
<tp>
yeah, very expensive
<corn>
those m-techs are expensive
<tp>
my thinkpad was $6500 new, but I bought mine 10 years old for $100 on ebay
<mark4>
m-tech had had an order from the u.s. army for like 24576294652349256293456432 million tablets that they had to turn down
<corn>
why?
<mark4>
no way they could have met that order
<tp>
they have a magnesium skin, so pretty robust but the SD slots are now dodgy etc
<mark4>
they supply the military withy rugedized laptops and sell to the public too
<tp>
what a bummer for them!
<corn>
ah
<mark4>
well yes and no
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<mark4>
it would have been $287562983645238456298364598234523695469827345 million dollars for them but...
<mark4>
28546729834659283754698237429845692837465987234765 billion problems trying to fill the order lol
<tp>
extra bank fees were a worry ? ;-)
<mark4>
i totally didnt make up those numbers :)
<corn>
they seem like reasonable numbers
<tp>
i never thought you did!
<mark4>
m-tech laptops are not even rated in the top 10 and are orders of magnitude better than any laptop in that list
<tp>
as a electronics tech I know what horrors lurk inside lappies, so I'm not a big fan
<tp>
basically put a desktop in a crusher and out comes a laptyop
<tp>
then you have the heat issues
<tp>
but Im lucky and dont need a laptop anymore now I'm retired
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<mark4>
my desktop is an asus rampage iv extreme with an lga 2011 extreme overclocked to 4.7 ghz
<mark4>
and 64 gigs of ram
<mark4>
and wont post
<tp>
oh dear
<mark4>
boththis laptop and my desktop utterly failed within hours of each other
<mark4>
i managed to get this one back up and running
<tp>
mine is a watercooled 6 core, 6 thread i7 with 64GB ram and 12TB of ZFS raid
<mark4>
but i think i need to rip the desktop to pieces and rebuild it from the groud up
<mark4>
this is also water cooled
<mark4>
i was using an H100 but after 7 years it died
<mark4>
so i changed to a different cooler i forget which it is now
<tp>
sadly I have stuffed the mobo a bit when I was rewring the fans and shorted a motor drive line to chassis :(
<tp>
all I have is a $90 Intel watercooler which went on when I built the pc in 2012, and it's still working, but I dont overclock, even tho I know I can get 5GHz on it with a beefier PSU
<mark4>
yea this is going on 8 years old now
<tp>
if I tried that the tubes would blow off the intel WC in about 30 seconds
<tp>
it's plenty fast ebuf for me
<tp>
ast the make 3500 Mhz
<tp>
at the default lame 3500 Mhz
<mark4>
i could never get this to 5.0, best i could get was 4.7
<mark4>
even stock 3.3 is fast enough for me
<tp>
oops 3.3 here as well
<tp>
it's a Sandy Bridge
<tp>
I think I paid $550 for the cpu only back in 2012
<mark4>
but i used to piss off the google android devs (at google corp) who hung in #android-dev by doing 20 minute AOSP builds from make clobber lol
<mark4>
yea mine was like $900 when i bought it
<mark4>
it was current tech back then :)
<corn>
when I hear people talk about their desktop setups it sounds so overboard
<tp>
it had just come out, and when I build my pc's I always make sure I get the very latest tech so that 8 years later it's still fast enuf
<mark4>
corn thats THE point! lol
<corn>
this is supposed to be forth we supposed to be minimal smh
<tp>
i feel no need to upgrade now anyway, it's plent fast enuf
<corn>
y'all just falling for the marketing
<tp>
Mores Law has died, improvements in speed are very minimal now anyway
<mark4>
corn when i started this channel i had ONE RULE
<tp>
things like your 2t nvme ssds will make the biggest difference I guess
<mark4>
no anal retentive rules about topics we can discuss in here
<mark4>
none
<mark4>
want to talk politics or religion thats 100% within the rules :)
<tp>
yeah there are, theyre clear in the topic
<mark4>
of couse being a dick is bad :)
<tp>
no one will harass off topic posters but the will get quickly put into the serious Forth guys ignore file, probably forever
<mark4>
moores law died a long time ago, it was guaranteed to do so, i dont even think HE thought it would last forever
<mark4>
no if you are a forth coder or interested in it im interested in anything you have to say even if i disagree with it
<mark4>
i sat in this channel for over a year before anyone ever noticed it
<mark4>
and for a year or so after than all i got was fly by's lol
<tp>
it seem everyone here is easygoing but it's a very serious Forth channel, they dont want off topic stuff clogging their logs
<crc>
mark4: the most I can say about tcn's current state is that he's still living in Massachusetts as of last November.
<mark4>
crc poor tcn :)
<mark4>
lol
<tp>
people like CRC have probably a intelligent logger that strips non Forth stuff before it hits his log file ;-)
<mark4>
the only problem with this channel right now is the number of idle bots :/
<crc>
tp: no; I don't mind non-forth discussions
<tp>
the power of RETRO!
<tp>
crc, awesome :)
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<mark4>
btw, my only other rule is i dont own this channel :)
<tp>
and this discussion isnt *that* off topic, all PC forths need a PC to run on
<crc>
mark4: how many bots are in the channel? there's clog, and sometimes a retro bot
<tp>
crc, whitelogger ?
<corn>
I have no issue with off topic
<mark4>
i dont know if all the idlers are bots but there are a lot of non active connections in here, i assume bot :)
<corn>
off-topic is the spice of life
<tp>
mark4, I assume remote IRC connections that the owners rarely get around to connecting to, or they just skin the log ?
<tp>
skim
<tp>
afterall, #forth can be very quiet for days
<corn>
gotta liven the place up
<tp>
I used to have a nick from hackaday on my ch (#merisp) and he never ever said anything
<tp>
it's gone now, probably a bot I guess, hackaday looking for something interesting they can use for an article ?
<mark4>
well its not like some channels where you ask a question and have to sit and wait for 3 or more days for someone to answer :/
<tp>
not that hackaday actually have anything intresting, it's a website for 10 year olds thesedays
<tp>
mark4, true
<mark4>
not only that ive never seen anything but "i did this!" there, nothing about "HOW I did this!"
<tp>
mark4, I'm nearly 66, think how dissapointed I am at the state of hobby electronics ?
<corn>
I don't touch hackaday with a 10ft pole
<mark4>
66 years old?
<tp>
I've been dissapointed since about the 80's
<mark4>
im 11 behind you
<tp>
yeah, nearly 66 years old
<tp>
nice :)
<tp>
the world needs more old people input in tech
<corn>
Every time I come here, I re-remember how old the forth crew is
<crc>
Some of us are a bit younger
<mark4>
forth is no londer than c
<tp>
I've been tired of the kid tech tsunami for the last 20 years
<mark4>
but way better
<mark4>
i tried to learn python, my brain rejected it outright
<corn>
rather, how much older the forth crew is than the wider programming crew
<tp>
heheh, you have to be sneaky to get Forth into the hands of non techies and kids nowadays
<corn>
mark4: but for me, python was the first think I learned, as as far as everyone told me at the time python was the king's language
<mark4>
heh
<mark4>
C.M. says forth is ***THE*** software engineering solution
<mark4>
i agree
<mark4>
in part
<corn>
it's hard to get exposed to simplicity unless you absolutely fight to find it in my age group
<tp>
oh I agree as well
<mark4>
the fact that you recognize that places you above most of your generation
<mark4>
for any given problem, the best solution to that problem is THE simplest soluton
<mark4>
or the simplest you can find
<tp>
Ive managed to get 247 downloads of a pure Forth binary into the hands of windows arduino users this year
<mark4>
***ALWAYS***
<mark4>
tp i really wanted to finish mhy avr forth but burned out
<tp>
it's a bootable binary with a simple numbered menu, impossible to screw up
<mark4>
and have not had the heart to pick it back up again
<mark4>
even thou i have a perfectly functional avr assembler written in forth
<corn>
but then it's hard to find too, because when I first took interest in programming and was told to use python, part of the argument was that "python is simple," and I could not deny that at the time but I could sense that it was wrong
<tp>
and they run it on 'BluePill' boards to find out if the MCU is original (non fake) and if it has the 'hidden' extra 64kB flash
<mark4>
wait. hidden extra 64k?
<mark4>
on AVRs?
<tp>
hell no
<tp>
STM32F103C8
<mark4>
aha
<tp>
they cone with an advertised 64kB flash
<tp>
...but they have a hidden extra 64kB block
<mark4>
i was porting my T4 thumb2 forth to a FRDM-k64F but i cant get the flash write to work no matter what
<mark4>
and everyone who has looked at my code has told me "this should work" (tm)
<tp>
I'm not a Forth implementor, Im a Forth user
<tp>
but I do know that many flash controllers are a nightmare
<tp>
especially NXP
<tp>
and SAM
<tp>
thats why you wont find many models of those chips supported by the Forth I use, Mecrisp-Stellaris
<corn>
who maintains that forth?
<corn>
"Matthias Koch"
<corn>
but it seems the site mecrisp-stellaris-folkdoc.sourceforge.io has tp all over it, so that's your site, right?
<crc>
tp does all the good documentation for mecrisp-stellaris
<tp>
crc, youre too kind considering your outstanding docs!
<tp>
crc, I found a interesting MD TOC generator called "Rage Against the Web Frameworks" lol
<tp>
all the rest are a myraid of programs I dont have and dont want installed
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<crc>
tp: by the july release of retro I should have all of the html formats of my docs generated using only tools I've written
<tp>
crc, thats awesome
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<tp>
crc, a very worthwhile endeavour, nothing beats ones own well written programs
<crc>
I'm looking forward to this as it'll drop the lost remaining bit stopping me from having everything fully automated for releases
<tp>
thats also my goal, but as a Forth user I'm very happy to use open apps to get to the same point
<tp>
but I must have full automation, it's critical as I only have so much time to waste doing repetitive tasks
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<crc>
I just want to be able to take a fresh system, setup retro & fossil, and be ready to go with all my tools. I'm close now, except for the all-in-one documentation with TOC, which I'm still using one external tool for
<tp>
yes, sorting out the doc and tools can be fun
<tp>
I do make great use of shell script and I dont mind it at all
<tp>
Id like to switch to retro for all that, but thats another major change I'll be looking at