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<mappum>
a supermoon lunar eclipse is starting right now, and will last for the next 3.5 hours or so. next one happens in 2033, so look at the moon if you can!
<mappum>
hopefully the next one in 2033 has people on it, viewing the superearth solar eclipse :P
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<davidar>
mappum (IRC): I can't see it past the sun :(
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<mappum>
davidar: quick, travel to the united states! it's still sunny here too but it will set before the peak of the eclipse
<jbenet>
I'm still impressed by the fact we're all on different points of a massive spheroid orbiting a gargantuan ball of runoff fusion
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<mappum>
only one spheroid though, so far :(
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<davidar>
jbenet (IRC): reminds me of the Douglas Adams quote
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<amstocker>
watching the lunar eclipse in sf
<whyrusleeping>
its pretty cool
<gendale_>
i filed a bug report for that repo.lock issue -- the daemon seems to generate a new one every time it starts
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<whyrusleeping>
thats odd. how do you shut the container down?
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<gendale_>
"docker stop ipfs_data"
<gendale_>
but the issue first arose on a container crash
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<whyrusleeping>
hmmm
<whyrusleeping>
the locking library we're using has issues
<whyrusleeping>
but since bradfitz wrote it, we're using it
<whyrusleeping>
the primary issue is that its hard to determine what the error messages it returns means
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<sonatagreen>
Why can I access mounted locations from the command line but not from applications?
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<whyrusleeping>
sonatagreen: what do you mean?
<sonatagreen>
more specifically, files seem to work but not directories
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<whyrusleeping>
sonatagreen: it could be that something is weird with the permissions, but without more details on whats going wrong i cant say
<sonatagreen>
e.g. in firefox I can go to file:///ipfs/QmPsoJ3qSxegFwVr4kKbtdzaMBHTjFZ7uBLkMPzsBdQ2QM/b5.gif but not file:///ipfs/QmPsoJ3qSxegFwVr4kKbtdzaMBHTjFZ7uBLkMPzsBdQ2QM/
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<M-davidar>
"I was eight years old when the stars went out. Disturbances in this country were minor; even on the east coast, sunset came too late, and apparently most Australians sat glued to their TVs all night, watching other people do the looting and burning. The End of the World was far too important to be happening anywhere but overseas. There were fewer deaths in Sydney than on the previous New Year’s Eve."
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<jbenet>
whyrusleeping: not using that lock lib because bradfitz wrote it, we're using it covers and has been tested in way more platforms than any of the alternatives. find a better one if you want, but really, a strictly better one that's as well battle tested.
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<M-davidar>
the double edged sword of garbage collection...
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<ianopolous>
jbenet, daviddias: thanks! :-)
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<Keiya>
How does IPFS handle ultra-high-latancy links? Think interplanetary radio, or carrier pigeon exchange.
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<_p4bl0>
whyrusleeping: hey, I think the last update I did was downloading the 3.8 (master) build from gobuilders sometimes last week
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<_p4bl0>
whyrusleeping: btw, I'm using the linux i386 version
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<_p4bl0>
whyrusleeping: I'm now using the last build, I'll get back to you if it crashes again :)
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<NeoTeo>
Hi guys. Having an issue with ipns. A test site that I'm publishing through my peer id is coming up fine via localhost:8080 and resolving as expected but I get the "Path Resolve error: context deadline exceeded" when going through the gateway. I am running the daemon and I can access the site directly via the gateway.
<jbenet>
NeoTeo: hm link?
<NeoTeo>
Jeez, it came up the second you asked. Your powers are impressive ;)
<NeoTeo>
Sorry.
* jbenet
is made of magic
<NeoTeo>
Only been trying all morning.
<jbenet>
sometimes the nodes cant dial you-- our NAT traversal isnt perfect yet
<jbenet>
some nats are symmetric too, so we'll need relay and we dont do that yet
<NeoTeo>
ok, cool. I'm aware of the alpha status, but I had it working before so I was trying to figure out if I'd done something.
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<ion>
NeoTeo: If your router supports UPnP, make sure it's turned on in the router settings. That will let programs to allow certain traffic in.
<NeoTeo>
thx <ion> but it sorted itself out.
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<achin>
does the "8/8" part mean the hash is pinned on 8 different nodes?
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<svetter>
ion: upnp implementations on residential gateways are so riddled with vulnerabilities and bugs that it's a bad idea to tell people to enable upnp imo
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<lgierth>
achin: yeah ipfs.io is 8 nodes
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<ehd>
anyone tried building ipfs-api on npm via webpack lately? i think it's not working without a custom configuration
<ehd>
would it perhaps make sense to add a browser field to package.json and point at the dist file?
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<cryptix>
anybody else seeing a lot of diagnostics requests?
<cryptix>
cc jbenet whyrusleeping - we should add a limiter on that or make it opt-in.. 1/hr seems like more than enough
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<ion>
cryptix: It seems to be about the present state of values, I'm thinking about the question “what has the daemon been up to in the last n hours”.
<cryptix>
i cant scrap together time to get into reactjs.. i hope i can sit it out until webasm is supported by gopherjs but... :)
<noffle>
good (pacific) morning everyone
<cryptix>
hey noffle :)
<whyrusleeping>
noffle: gmornin!
<cryptix>
ion: i just meant that there are hooks in place to record values (like connection count etc) and we also have scrapers in place for the gateways using prometheus for long term evaluation of these
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<cryptix>
ion: just to give you an idea of whats already in place
<ion>
cryptix: Aye, I also polled the daemon to generate the graphs.
<cryptix>
lgierth: btw i lost my cjdns key >_> - can we rekey some time? :)
<ion>
But it would be cool if the daemon logged that data by itself and I could just take the log and plot it.
<cryptix>
yea - a build in prometheus-lite would be interesting.. although its quite easy to setup and nice to concentrate multiple nodes for comparison
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<lgierth>
cryptix: sure! just let me know your new ipv6
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<rschulman>
I don't always use my name as my handle. :)
<noffle>
sometimes I'll appear as sww too
<noffle>
cryptix: *clicks*
<rschulman>
whyrusleeping: Do you know if Juan is in CA today?
<whyrusleeping>
rschulman: unfortunately, no. he is in new yark
<rschulman>
hah, well shit
<whyrusleeping>
(i think?)
<rschulman>
oh well
<whyrusleeping>
he was in PA last week but i'm pretty sure he flew back
<rschulman>
Heh. Its a virtual world. I wanted to buy him a real coffee, though. :)
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<cryptix>
noffle: the bit about interrupt would 'just' require to setup https://godoc.org/os/signal#example-Notify and using a context.WithCancel instead of Background and calling that in the cancel function in the notify handler - than the node should go down nicely
* cryptix
is now finished with handing out homework
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<ion>
whyrusleeping: A couple more things that would be nice to have come to mind: 0) The total amount of file content provided to clients like ipfs get. At the moment my polling script stats the output file to generate the blue line. 1) Some kind of latency information about network communications as an indicator of bufferbloat problems.
<whyrusleeping>
ion: 0 can be found if you use get through the api
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<noffle>
cryptix: I think I need more context (ha pun) here: are you talking about node shutdown (on error or at end-of-program)?
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<cryptix>
noffle: ctrl+c mostly - right now it tears down the ipfs node in an unhealth way for the network, i think. but also maybe adding a timeout flag some day? would use the same functionality
* cryptix
is out for a bit
<noffle>
cryptix: makes sense. I'll do some reading on that.
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] lgierth created discovery-cjdns (+1 new commit): http://git.io/vcLuW
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/discovery-cjdns b64ed6e Lars Gierth: WIP...
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] lgierth deleted discovery-cjdns at b64ed6e: http://git.io/vcLu0
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* whyrusleeping
wonders if he missed daylight savings time or something
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<daviddias>
whyrusleeping: I'm here and wrote my checkin stuff just now
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<daviddias>
I believe richardlitt is flying today
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: woo!
<whyrusleeping>
i'm still working on my writeup
<lgierth>
ok i can fill in for richardlitt
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<daviddias>
I've a very big question for my next sprint, if I should focus on implementing bitswap, cli and chunking, or try to bring libp2p to go as a separate module
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: what do you mean bring libp2p to go?
<daviddias>
the later sounds like a more solid bet, since having both libp2p interoperable and matching together seems to serve better more people for now
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<lgierth>
sprint sync time! get your updates ready and we'll start in 10 -- richardlitt daviddias dignifiedquire lgierth whyrusleeping amstocker jbenet rht cryptix krl
<daviddias>
whyrusleeping: I mean, like, make it something go-ipfs can 'import' and that it is fully interoperable with node-libp2p
<lgierth>
hope i didn't forget anyone again
<daviddias>
thank you lgierth :)
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: ah, okay. for that we need to extract the p2p package in go-ipfs
<whyrusleeping>
(the one from dev0.4.0)
<daviddias>
(also 2x excited for getting my hands in all of that go code :D)
<daviddias>
I'll join the go-ipfs meeting and sync up with you :)
<lgierth>
btw, what does [~] stand for? blocked or wip?
<lgierth>
(in tasks lists)
<noffle>
lgierth: :'(
<lgierth>
noffle! :)
<lgierth>
sprint sync time!
<daviddias>
lgierth: when I do it, it means that it is 'on going' and typically if something is on going, is because my attention got dragged or that I was blocked
<lgierth>
ok, "started but not finished", so to say
<daviddias>
around that yes :)
<noffle>
is there already a pad for the next sprint? or is this to discuss only the previous sprint?
<daviddias>
I'm used to see ~ in the Node.js world to mean something like ' more or less, so so, almost there'
<whyrusleeping>
noffle: this is to discuss what we did last sprint
<lgierth>
here we discuss the previous sprint. let me get that pad for this week ready
<daviddias>
noffle: we disscuss first the last spring and during the f2f meetings, we build the next sprint
<whyrusleeping>
and then we fill out the etherpad for what we are going to do this week
<daviddias>
and as you see, we are a super proactive team, everyone is always happy to explain stuff :D
<noffle>
ACK :)
<lgierth>
:>
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<noffle>
fyi I won't be able to attend f2f meetings (real job), but async irc stuff is fine
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<lgierth>
ok, who wants to go first?
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* whyrusleeping
not it
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<whyrusleeping>
okay, fine
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<whyrusleeping>
i'll go
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<whyrusleeping>
- [x] UDT cleanup and tests
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] more cross platform makefile
<whyrusleeping>
- [ ] ipns patches (writing some more tests)
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] iptb can use port 0
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] misc other iptb improvements
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] fix api file for port zero
<whyrusleeping>
- [ ] ipfs update command (wrote scaffolding, still needs infra work)
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] bitswap stat returns number of bytes wasted
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] docs for ipfs object patch
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] better input parsing for 'ipfs dht' commands
<whyrusleeping>
- [ ] wrote up beginnings of 0.3.8 changelog
<whyrusleeping>
- [x] began discussion of udt transition steps
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<whyrusleeping>
- [x] bitswap discussion with @daviddias
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<whyrusleeping>
this week was a lot of background work, didnt ship much code, but got a lot done in terms of figuring things out
<whyrusleeping>
ipns should ship either today or tomorrow (depending on how troublesome these tests prove)
<lgierth>
cool!
<lgierth>
can't wait for udt
<whyrusleeping>
go-multiaddr-net needs a refactor before we can push udt into it
<whyrusleeping>
i'm still really leery on pushing a crapton of c++ code into go-ipfs
<whyrusleeping>
i really want to just translate the c++ code into go
<whyrusleeping>
it shouldnt take more than a day honestly
<lgierth>
oh that udt is c++? isn't that gonna real slow because of all the c/go context switches?
<whyrusleeping>
not too slow
<lgierth>
ok
<whyrusleeping>
the syscall time overpowers the switching time
<whyrusleeping>
i can pull almost a gigabit off of the localhost
<whyrusleeping>
which is plenty for now
<lgierth>
yeah sounds good
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<daviddias>
whyrusleeping: have I passed you the idea of 'upgradable connections'?
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: i dont think so
<daviddias>
where on top of a transport (tcp, udp, udt, webrtc, etc) we lay on top other mechanisms available (encrypted channel, stream muxing, etc)
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<whyrusleeping>
okay
<dignifiedquire_>
just shopping Will hopefully be back in 30min
<daviddias>
so that we can upgrade a connection by transport, or even by stream (for example, I might want a stream on top of a spdy stream muxer on top of udp to have congestion window, but all the others don't, so I just upgrade by stream instead of by transport)
<lgierth>
let's discuss this later in the protocol or ipfs hangouts
<lgierth>
dignifiedquire_: or wanna go now real quick?
<daviddias>
it is pretty cool (I think), I can explain better in the meetings section
<daviddias>
:)
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<lgierth>
daviddias: wanna go next?
<daviddias>
sure
* daviddias
here it goes
<daviddias>
- [x] Started a 'captain.log' on node-ipfs repo, like a dev news letter for all things node-ipfs https://github.com/ipfs/node-ipfs/issues/30 so that folks can feel welcome to chip in to the current endeavours.
<daviddias>
- [x] Lisbon IPFS Meetup - Got the Venue and the date (Oct 7th) and some awareness around the Lisbon community. Unfortunately meetup.com deleted our meetup (+ the Portland one) for lack of information in the description, reached out to support to get it back, waiting to hear from them.
<daviddias>
- [x] Reviewed and merged a bunch of PRs across the board, from node-ipfs-api, npm-go-ipfs, libp2p stuff and more
<daviddias>
- [x] Discussed with @whyrusleeping on what is Bitswap to start implementing it on node-ipfs
<daviddias>
- [x] Got some notes from @jbenet on how the chunking of IPFS is done and structured
<daviddias>
- [x] Reviewed and posted feedback to PANDO, the PhD proposal from Erick Lavoie
<daviddias>
- [x] Landed the greenfield for libp2p-website https://github.com/diasdavid/libp2p-website (really happy how nice it is to use IPFS to publish static websites with simple npm scripts), continue working on the plan of ip-surge tool (that resembles https://surge.sh/)
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<lgierth>
oh heh a surge-like think on top of ipfs would be really cool -- that'd be static-pages-on-ipfs 2.0 :P
<whyrusleeping>
daviddias: is the chunking and layout stuff making sense now?
<multivac>
[WIKIPEDIA] Pando Networks | "Founded in 2004 in New York City, Pando Networks was a managed peer-to-peer (P2P) media distribution company backed by Intel Capital, BRM Capital and Wheatley Partners. The company specialized in cloud distribution of games, video and software for publishers and media distributors and also operated a..."
<lgierth>
multivac: thanks, that was useful
<daviddias>
lgierth: it is so sweet, because not only you get super easy publishing, but you can also have versions, it will be rad for companies that need to do AB testing and internal reviewing process
<lgierth>
TIL that Peer Assisted Media Distribution is an industry
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<lgierth>
daviddias: heh and you only need to actually upload what you changed
<daviddias>
whyrusleeping: 'it does', I'm sure I'll have questions when after I write the code, but it does make sense that bitswap doesn't know chunking
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<lgierth>
ok -- noffle: wanna go next? there don't seem to be many people around, i'll go last
<noffle>
it's crude, but it works. A really fun week: lots of learning around both the go-ipfs codebase and how to do things The Right Way with golang. I'm loving the unixy tooling. Getting the ipget tool working was pretty easy once @whyrusleeping showed me how to get a fresh node up. No blockers yet. Excited to refine and polish this thing :)
<daviddias>
lgierth: PANDO is a PhD proposal, so nothing public yet, but it is a system, BOINC like, that leverages CPU cycles through the Web Platform. It has some overlap with browserCloud.js, but Erick is implementing a MatLab VM in JS so that he can run existent scientific code
<daviddias>
it will be pretty dope!
<noffle>
oh, and - [x] meeting cool ipfs people :P
<daviddias>
lgierth: I think multivac is a bot :)
<lgierth>
daviddias: yeah but i ranted about it's ur lresolution a couple of times and this time it was useful ;)
<lgierth>
noffle: cool :) yeah ipfs and the related projects are my first golang projects as well
<lgierth>
- [x] the little gateway-dmca-denylist tool finally does something -- renders and adds a structure of notices and to-be-blocked objects https://github.com/ipfs/gateway-dmca-denylist
<lgierth>
- [ ] ipfs.io/refs/lists/denylists/dmca should resolve to dmca.denylists.lists.refs.ipfs.io, which is a dnslink to the latest version of the denylist https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/pull/1551
<lgierth>
- [~] fix the pluto private key situation -- we lost pluto's private key a while ago, why is mining for a new one starting in SoL[Pp] https://github.com/ipfs/go-ipfs/pull/1748
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<lgierth>
regarding the denylist structure
<noffle>
is the dmca denylist something we'll have to maintain forever? surely once ipfs explodes we won't be able to keep up with all of the dmca takedowns requests
<lgierth>
it's only for those files against ipfs.io
<lgierth>
and others running gateways are free to use our list
<whyrusleeping>
noffle: yeah, its gonna get weird
<noffle>
but ipfs.io is a gateway to the global ipfs filesystem, no? so any illegal file on ipfs is accessible via your gateway
<lgierth>
yup
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<Vyl>
But those are not hash-addresses: Once the takedown is processed, the specified content is no longer accessible.
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<Vyl>
This is most comparable to Google's posting of notices, except more convenient.
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<dignifiedquire>
jbenet anyone else interested in electron-app hangout?
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<whyrusleeping>
dignifiedquire: running a little behind today
<whyrusleeping>
but i think i'd be interested in joining today
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<richardlitt>
Sitting in Charlotte Airport, just got through security // found a power outlet
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<jbenet>
hey everyone o/ -- sorry for arriving late. i'm also a bum, and cant do hangouts until ~1.5 hrs from now. (something important came up)
<jbenet>
my update: lots of CR, discussions, + catching up with various people. I will push out my libp2p interfaces + node-ipfs repo module stuff later today.
<jbenet>
- [ ] put ipld into go-ipfs
<jbenet>
- [x] meet with people @stanford
<jbenet>
- [~] make libp2p go interfaces file (posting later today)
<jbenet>
- [~] api docs designdoc (posting later today)
<richardlitt>
Build a community page listing all of the repos currently in development and make sure that their internal READMEs are streamlined. Write a starlog about this once it is done.
<richardlitt>
Make a list of things to do for new repos: for instance, adding Contribute, Adding Readme, adding badges, Add language contribute link, add travis, add CI, add to roadmap / repo list.
<richardlitt>
Fix textarea scrolling on ipfs/starlog#26
<richardlitt>
Not done!:
<richardlitt>
Take a crack at node-ipfs-api docs!
<richardlitt>
Resolve issues on ipfs/community as much as possible. Don't go overboard.
<richardlitt>
See if I can codify how I can help manage sprints and project management better.
<richardlitt>
Give IPFS install another test run through for ease of use.
<richardlitt>
Finish job spec.
<richardlitt>
Add -contribute.md files to community list. See ipfs/go-ipfs#1734
<richardlitt>
eof.
<richardlitt>
Not as much as I would like.
<dignifiedquire>
I know the feeling
<dignifiedquire>
### Main goal: Workable state of the electron app
<dignifiedquire>
- [ ] Finish current efforts and clean up ipfs/electron-app#43
<dignifiedquire>
- [ ] Test new dist version of electron app on windows and mac and find people to test on linux
<dignifiedquire>
- [ ] Start thinking of an improved webui (design)
<dignifiedquire>
thanks, been out of bed since yesterday evening, so things are starting to look up :)
<lgierth>
richardlitt: i'm already using dnslink-deploy for gateway-dmca-denylist
<lgierth>
cool that's good
<lgierth>
for me it's about time for my bi-annual cold...
<lgierth>
i'm one month due actually
<dignifiedquire>
good luck, maybe it’ll forget it’s duty :P
<dignifiedquire>
*its
<richardlitt>
:)
<richardlitt>
I went hiking this weekend, took a day off of what I thought I had
<lgierth>
aww that sounds great
<richardlitt>
[x] Hiked to the top of Tennessee and North Carolina, drove/walked to the highest points in Georgia and South Carolina
<lgierth>
[x] forgot lunar eclipse while waiting for it the whole night :/
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<richardlitt>
[x] Read Fahrenheit 451, which was written in a world where IPFS hadn't been thought of, but which IPFS would render that world impossible.
<richardlitt>
lgierth: yeah, was cloudy here :(
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<lgierth>
well i only had to turn my head by 90 degrees to the right, and 45 degrees up
<lgierth>
was in the middle of programming :/
<richardlitt>
Alright, plane.
<richardlitt>
CLT >> NYC >> BOS. Later!
<jbenet>
re comments above on our public-denylist-approach to dmca having problems; yes, it's a correct criticism and we may not be able to do it this way. i hoped that we would be able to show that this way, most IPFS nodes would comply thus reducing the work for the dmca censors while also being more socially transparent. after all, censor lists should be public.
<jbenet>
groups (EFF/Berkman) about this.
<jbenet>
however the problems with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chilling_Effects#Praise_and_criticism means that this may actually not be in the cards and we may have to change this strategy. this will be discussed more in the future on github, and with proper legal advice. (we want to find something that works well for everyone) -- will be reaching out to various
<multivac>
[WIKIPEDIA] Chilling Effects#Praise and criticism | "Chilling Effects is a collaborative archive created by Wendy Seltzer and founded along with several law school clinics and the Electronic Frontier Foundation to protect lawful online activity from legal threats. Its website, Chilling Effects Clearinghouse, allows recipients of cease-and-desist notices..."
<jbenet>
cc whyrusleeping lgierth Vyl ion o/
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<jbenet>
hey dignifiedquire lgierth daviddias: i'm sorry today sucks: something important came up and can't do hangouts until after 20:00Z. if you want, go ahead without me and can catch up later--- or wait for me. up to you.
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<ion>
jbenet: I'm all for being as transparent as possible, but if it turns out distributing the block lists is impossible, perhaps salt and hash the DMCA'd hashes and publish that list.
<whyrusleeping>
to make it scalable, we will probably have to just distribute a bloom filter at some point
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<dignifiedquire>
whyrusleeping: if it’s just us, I’d be happy to do it on irc, rather than hangout today, as talking is still slightly painful for me
<jbenet>
<ion>
A bloom filter along with the source data, right? Because solely using a bloom filter and not checking for false positives sounds scary.
<ion>
But given the data, everyone could just generate their own bloom filter.
<ion>
Is gateway.ipfs.io deprecated? If it is, how about redirecting to ipfs.io?
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<ion>
dignifiedquire: I have a cold and my voice is affected, too. I can reach C2 now where my normal range ends around F#2.
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<dignifiedquire>
ion: I thought this was the ipfs channel, not the cold-and-sick channel ;)
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* whyrusleeping
turns his personal space heater up a bit
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* whyrusleeping
admires how well his space heater renders voxel trees
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<sonatagreen>
ha
<daviddias>
jbenet: I available all night :) do the thing you have to do
<daviddias>
it's cool :)
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<lgierth>
ion: yep we will redirect gateway.ipfs.io to ipfs.io
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<ion>
dignifiedquire: the International Palaver For the Sick
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed ipns/patches from 4ba32d7 to b918da5: http://git.io/vn0bZ
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/ipns/patches 1afb9bc Jeromy: ipns record selection via sequence numbers...
<whyrusleeping>
_p4bl0: blocks that are pinned as a result of another block being pinned recursively
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<whyrusleeping>
jbenet: i'm working through that multiaddr-net refactor
<whyrusleeping>
and i'm trying to figure out how we're going to do things like 'dial from an opened socket'
<whyrusleeping>
because with udp based protocols, you can 'Dial' using the same socket youre listening on
<_p4bl0>
whyrusleeping: ok thx
<whyrusleeping>
to truely have 'only one' fd
<_p4bl0>
another questions about pin, if I recursively add a directory to my local node, and that I later unpin -r the ipfs name of that directory, what happens exactly?
<whyrusleeping>
the pin is removed
<whyrusleeping>
and if you run a gc, the data will be removed
<_p4bl0>
ok
<_p4bl0>
so suppose I want to pin only the most recent version of a directory contents
<_p4bl0>
I should pin rm -r the ipfs name of the directory and the ipfs add -r the directory again?
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<achin>
you'll have to recursively unpin the hash of the previous direcctory
<_p4bl0>
because if I do it in reverse order and run the gc I might have problems: for instance if a file in the directory hasn't changed, add I add -r the directory, this file's ipfs name will be the same, so if I pin rm -r the old ipfs name of the directory, this file will be unpinned even it it has been pinned as part recursively with the new version of the directory
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<_p4bl0>
achin: yes, my point is that some of the files in this directory may not have changed, so what happens to them?
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<achin>
it doesn't matter in which order to do the "add -r" on the new directory and "pin rm -r" on the old directory
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<achin>
at the moment, there is no automatic GC, so if you unpin a bunch of stuff, and then re-pin it moments later (via ipfs add -r), there is no risk that things will be garbage collected unexpectedly
<jbenet>
infra done-- not much right now -- mainly: (a) discussing denylist things and (b) getting whyrusleeping and I to help manage infra.
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<jbenet>
whyrusleeping, daviddias: node-ipfs or go-ipfs next? -- did ipfs-apps happen with dignifiedquire?
<whyrusleeping>
we can do go-ipfs
<whyrusleeping>
havent done apps
* daviddias
is here and would like to join both :)
<whyrusleeping>
re infra: what is needed from me?
<dignifiedquire>
will join, but can only contribute via typing
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<achin>
_p4bl0: did i answer your question?
<dignifiedquire>
as voice not fully back yet
<_p4bl0>
achin: maybe yes, I am trying some things out to see if I understood correctly
<achin>
_p4bl0: ok cool.
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<jbenet>
dignifiedquire daviddias whyrusleeping (and anybody else): which one first? vote: (go-ipfs, node-ipfs, ipfs-apps)
<dignifiedquire>
apps please, as I don’t know how long I’ll be around (getting late here)
<jbenet>
ok, sounds good. dignifiedquire we can discuss on irc to avoid having to talk-- (or do you want to show something)
<ianopolous>
jbenet: whyareyousleeping: it seems that ipfs pin rm throws HTTP 500 if the hash isn't already pinned. Personally I would expect it to return fine, saying nothing was removed, rather than error.
<jbenet>
richardlitt also if you've had a chance to hack on either api or starlog UI/UX can discuss too
<dignifiedquire>
I’ll do a quick gif for showing
<jbenet>
ianopolous: oof http 500 is definitely a bug. we do want to react with a different message whether a pin was removed vs one didnt exist, i think, but the response should definitely be http 200 OK (or at worst, 405 if it doesn't exist, or something)
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<ianopolous>
well pin rm returns the removed hashes, so it can just return an empty list?
<jbenet>
-- i think we'll have to end up creating our own error codes for all this sort of stuff. i dont have a good idea yet on how to do it, http codes were very successful, but also good to review how other APIs have done it since. worth discussing in an `ipfs/ipfs-node-api` repo-- need to make one.
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: sgtm
<ion>
“<dignifiedquire> […] I don’t know how long I’ll be around […]” That's a bad cold.
<jbenet>
ianopolous: ah yeah, so you can check if yours was there. sgtm
<ianopolous>
jbenet: exactly
<vijayee_>
so wait...ipfs-apps will be some sort of sdk?
<_p4bl0>
achin: yes, my tests say that it is ok, thanks :)
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<jbenet>
vijayee_ not really, "ipfs-apps" is just a coalescing of "applications on top of ipfs" which involves (specific apps (like the electron-app or starlog), the ipfs-node API, and so on)
<jbenet>
actually the API is important enough to deserve its own discussion. i originally had "specs" maybe i can repurpose it to "api" .
<jbenet>
ok, let's start discussing ipfs-apps. daviddias dignifiedquire (+ richardlitt davidar to follow along later)
<ion>
Is it an HTTP API?
<dignifiedquire>
alright
<jbenet>
(ion: yep, it exists already)
<jbenet>
lets discuss electron-app first, so dignifiedquire can take off whenever he wants.
<ion>
It might be nice if the API was RESTful
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire want to give a quick update on where it's at atm, what you want from it, and so on?
<dignifiedquire>
yep will do
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<whyrusleeping>
eta on next chat? trying to decide if i should cook food now or later
<dignifiedquire>
So I’ve been working on a, now complete overhaul of electron-app (btw this really needs a better name) the (code) progress can be seen here https://github.com/ipfs/electron-app/pull/43
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<_p4bl0>
it is strange, when I ipfs repo gc I see stuff removed that I had no idea where there
<dignifiedquire>
I wanted to get the major parts done last week, but couldn’t due to sickness, as by now probably everyone has heared. Nevertheless I got some work in and a nearly working “welcome” screen now
<_p4bl0>
ah, nevermind
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping: ~30min
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping can do node-ipfs too, so feel free to cook
<_p4bl0>
it makes the interaction with the command very natural
<dignifiedquire>
My main goal at the moment is to get the overhaul finished and the code clean and shiny so people can start using it
<jbenet>
dnigifedquire: looks really good. re "needs a better name" yeah-- daviddias made it "IPFS Node" as an app name, which makes sense. though we could give it a nicer name even, maybe like "Station" or something
<jbenet>
(we can discuss alternatives on github)
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<jbenet>
davidquire: "goal at the moment is to get the overhaul finished and the code clean and shiny so people can start using it"
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: video looks great! (we'll want to follow up all this with a webui cleanup to make it look equally good)
<sonatagreen>
(it works on my machine, but i also have a local copy of the font that it /could/ be falling-back to)
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: yes that’s the idea :) but one thing at a time ;)
<daviddias>
jbenet: I see your
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: yeah ineed.
<jbenet>
indeed*
<dignifiedquire>
I think that’s all I got so far, if anyone has improvements/suggestions please let me know
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: would it help for me to sketch out some mockups of improvements of what else we could have, both in the menu, the menubar, and so on?
<dignifiedquire>
probably, the main thing I’m unclear about currently is the settings section
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: we can maybe sketch out more directions to improve, and we can select from those what we want, etc.
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: yeah settings -- we need to outline all the pieces needed there.
<dignifiedquire>
yeah, though I would like to stop adding features in this PR and do them after wards cause it’s already way too long running for my taste
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: yeah agreed, maybe let's outline the last things for this PR.
<jbenet>
- need to address the advanced options thing
<dignifiedquire>
yes main work currently is finishing the welcome screen (still has lots of bugs)
<jbenet>
- need logo in the menu dropdown ( "[ ] IPFS" )
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<dignifiedquire>
after that there is only one major feature that I’m missing which is file upload
<jbenet>
- the "console/browser" buttons arent so clear to me anymore. wonder how we might make that more obvious to the user, maybe other words
<jbenet>
- maybe address settings later (is there anything in settings right now? if not, we could hide it until later)
<jbenet>
- yes +1 to file upload
<dignifiedquire>
They are empty atm
<dignifiedquire>
color: yellow is all daviddias put into them
<daviddias>
dignifiedquire: does it still have the progress bars for uploading files?
<dignifiedquire>
atm uploading files is simply not working
<ion>
A newbie might find the .ipfs directory setting in startup confusing. They might also wonder why they have to start the node manually. “Did I not just start IPFS already?”
<jbenet>
maybe we can add the settings later (and +1 to daviddias's list, want that too)
<jbenet>
:(
<daviddias>
dignifiedquire: why not?
<jbenet>
drag and drop to the menubar broke?
<dignifiedquire>
cause the ui doesn’t recognize it, no worry I’ll reenable it with progress and everything
<dignifiedquire>
as I said that’s the last big thing I need to work on
<ianopolous>
sorry to interrupt guys. If I "ipfs add" a file, and then "ipfs pin add" the resulting hash, should that succeed? Currently the http api throws a 500.
<jbenet>
ion: good feedback, i think "did i not just start IPFS" can be solved by "auto-starting the node on application launch" and making that be a setting
<dignifiedquire>
I can do that quickly and already thought about it
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<jbenet>
ion: and whatever might make the ".ipfs" directory less confusing would be good. :/ hard because it's a hidden folder, and it should be as people shouldn't mess with it.
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<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: ion: we can just not show it
<dignifiedquire>
simply show the path, and append the .ipfs internally
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<daviddias>
dignifiedquire: nice! Good to know. I was wondering if drag-drop stopped working for node-ipfs-api reasons
<dignifiedquire>
daviddias: no the code is just not even running atm
<jbenet>
hmm yeah maybe not showing ".ipfs" is easier on end-users. on advanced mode i'd like to see it though, else i might expect something to be there, but then not be able to remove it.
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<jbenet>
oh that reminds me, we should have a way to "Uninstall IPFS" which (a) stops the node, and (b) removes the repo.
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<jbenet>
pick whichever you want
<jbenet>
there fixed
<dignifiedquire>
ta
<ion>
It would be the most user-friendly not to ask about a directory at all. There could be a setting that lets you move the block storage to another device for advanced users.
<ion>
Install “IPFS”, run it, bam. Done.
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<dignifiedquire>
ion: you say that now, that I’ve created such a nice welcome screen :cry
<ion>
Aww
<jbenet>
ion: maybe it could just be under "advanced options"
<dignifiedquire>
but I do agree it would be a much nicer experience
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: what if we make both the path and key selection be under an "advanced options" subpanel that starts hidden but can get revealed (maybe like a directory or something
<jbenet>
and at first it's just a screen that welcomes the user and says "Let's install IPFS", with one button to click.
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: how about both go into the settings menu, and we don’t show any configuration?
* whyrusleeping
is back
<jbenet>
or not "install IPFS" but rather, "Create IPFS Node" (or "Start" or something)
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: no this has to be possible on init
<dignifiedquire>
and just a welcome screen, saying great that you are here, let’s get started
<achin>
(as a kinda "pro user", i was very happy to know right off the bat that ipfs would store blocks in ~/.ipfs. with this info, i created a new zfs filesystem just for IPFS)
<jbenet>
achin: +1 -- yep we need to support users who do want that advanced control
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: there's ways to make this pretty just fine, it only requires a nice way to make the advanced settings start hidden, but be revealed on one click.
<jbenet>
advanced options*
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<dignifiedquire>
I’m not worried that I can’t make it pretty
<jbenet>
but they have to happen on init because it must occur _before_ creating a node (_before_ a settings button is even available)
<dignifiedquire>
okay, so I’ll move both settings into advanced
<jbenet>
and it's related to the init process, it's options for creating a node, it's the options passed to `ipfs init (or ipfs daemon --init)` essentially, and preserving a good mapping between those is useful.
<dignifiedquire>
sure
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<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed ipns/patches from d05fb62 to e04faf3: http://git.io/vn0bZ
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/ipns/patches e04faf3 Jeromy: make publish more configurable and add test for repub...
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<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: sounds good. btw one good source of inspiration is the welcome screens for Dropbox and Google mobile apps
<ion>
Couldn't the location be moved after init?
<jbenet>
they have these really simple panels with drawings and one sentence description of what the product does or how it works, super useful for new users.
<jbenet>
we could draw something for that (or if we dont have the talent between us, we can find someone on deviantart or dribbble to help)
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<ianopolous>
jbenet: If I "ipfs add" a file, and then "ipfs pin add" the resulting hash, should that succeed? Currently the http api throws a 500.
<dignifiedquire>
I was thinking about sth like that for the welcome screen, but wasn’t sure what to actually say
<dignifiedquire>
I’m happy and try to visualize sth if you guys have some good ideas
<achin>
dropbox and google also have top-notch and well-funded UX teams :) (not saying that you all are not top-notch! just saying, they do great work, but don't feel bad if we don't match them on the first iteration)
<jbenet>
ion: it could but would require shutting down the node, moving, and re-running. its clunkier, and may just want to avoid assumptions about home being writable and not full, maybe the user has disabled perms there and wants to specify only one dir somewhere. less assumptions/convolutions = better.
<jbenet>
achin: indeed, agreed, though i bet we can do well with some discussion
<jbenet>
achin: linux and git did things no large company managed to do, though many, many tried
<dignifiedquire>
achin: also they are also only cooking with water
<jbenet>
(it's still mind boggling that linux beat out all commercial unixes)
<sonatagreen>
ianopolous, dunno why http500, but `ipfs add` automatically pins, so `ipfs pin add` is redundant
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: but linux and git have the worst ux of all times :D
<jbenet>
(some of the best tech companies in the world made really high quality unixes)
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: not really, not at all. they just have commandline UX, not end-user UX. totally different audience.
<ion>
Linux has a UX? :-)
<achin>
anyone working in software engineer (i.e. you all) knows that Good UX is capital-H Hard
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<ianopolous>
jbenet: that's what I thought, but an "ipfs pin ls" immediately after the "ipfs add" doesn't return the hash
<jbenet>
linux (and git) UX was way better than most commercial unixes (vcs-es) -- correctness and robustness was one important UX detail
<dignifiedquire>
linux has a lot of ux, but it’s still bad, ux is not about things being pretty, but being consitent and user friendly, and git as well as most linux cli tools are neither, there is actually an excellent ux review on linux about 10 years old which explains this in a lot of detail
<sonatagreen>
ianopolous, try `ipfs pin ls --type=all`
<ansuz>
there's a few things that always trip me up
<ansuz>
some tools use -R for recursive, and others -R or -r
<jbenet>
i strongly disagree. i think git has one of the best UXes out there. the cli is not consistent, and the ramp up is waaaay waaaay too hard, but once you "get" the git mindset, everything is amazingly, amazingly smooth. trying to use cvs, svn, hg after git is a nightmare, their UX is awful compared.
<ansuz>
I should just use -R all the time, but I can never remember which use which and I get too lazy to reach for shift
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<jbenet>
the important thing to note here is that UX is not just about new users, it's about the whole UX lifecycle, and while git should have definitely had a much better ramp up, and probably should've worked harder for cli consistency, it's actually really, really strong UX for long term users.
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: not saying those are any better
<ianopolous>
sonatagreen: thanks. that returns it
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: gits story is a bit more complicated
<ion>
dignifiedquire: I'm excited about the possibility of VCS-on-IPFS having a great CLI UI and having certain features that come from the nature of IPFS that make it a serious contender to Git.
<achin>
jbenet: i would suggest that a really really good app can thrive despite a bad UX, just by being so damn good at what it does. git is really damn good at what it does (i'm not saying that git's UX is terrible, though. in many cases it indeed is pretty good)
<dignifiedquire>
git is very torn, it has parts where the ux is very good and things work excellent, but the cli interface is still missing a lot of predicatability and consistentcy just in terms of naming conventions etc
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<jbenet>
one very important part of UX is the power of the user, for example i would say that Lisp and Haskell have really powerful UX, even though the UX-for-new-users component is really, really bad. (and many people are working on improving that)
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire yeah i agree with that a lot, but UX is not just the porcelain, it also involves the plumbing. git could use much nicer porcelain,
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<jbenet>
but it's plumbing has really strong UX properties------ anyway, let's pop the stack and get back on topic
<jbenet>
ipfs-apps.
<dignifiedquire>
ux is all the duct tape you see :D
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: i'd call that the first layer of UI (not UX)
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<ion>
You should add duct tape to the IPFS GUI.
<achin>
one git example of a curious UX decision: "git checkout" can mean "discard changes in working directory" or "switch branches".
<achin>
those are actually the same thing, but git doesn't really try to explain this. so it just seems a little confusing
<jbenet>
achin: no, it means "take data out of the repository and put it in the working directory". the two you mention are consequences.
<jbenet>
achin: thats what i mean about "getting git", you have to really understand their abstractions and what they really mean (not what the first impressions / tutorials might imply)
<achin>
well, git itself uses the following verbage: "use git checkout to discard changes in working directory"
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: about the logo that I put in there, I’ll use an abstracted version, with just the outlines in white ok?
<jbenet>
achin: yeah i think the git help needs help ;)
<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed ipns/patches from e04faf3 to a9a3c2d: http://git.io/vn0bZ
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/ipns/patches a9a3c2d Jeromy: make publish more configurable and add test for repub...
<jbenet>
we could make some there that are just the outline, and some that are the outline + a light bg)
<vijayee_>
whyrusleeping: I'm going to have some hard questions for you on ipfs services
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: is there path baed version somehwere?
<dignifiedquire>
/path/vector/
<jbenet>
also if anyone wants to design it in SVG with _proper_ measurements (i mean, apple-style perfection-obsessed style measurements), that would be awesome.
<dignifiedquire>
something like .ai, .eps, .svg ?
<achin>
jbenet: i understand your argument (and i mean no offense), but i feel like yoru argument is taking the easy way out :) "i know this widget is confusing, but once you understand our internal datamodel, it'll make much more sense" is rarely a valid UX strategy
<ion>
rebase and rebase -i also do the same thing in the end but for a user, rebasing a branch and reordering/deleting/concatenating commits are different things and the lawyer would probably warrant a new verb.
<ion>
the latter
<whyrusleeping>
vijayee_: mkay
<ipfsbot>
[go-ipfs] whyrusleeping force-pushed ipns/patches from a9a3c2d to a11234d: http://git.io/vn0bZ
<ipfsbot>
go-ipfs/ipns/patches a11234d Jeromy: make publish more configurable and add test for repub...
<dignifiedquire>
also @everyone if you have ideas about a nice short sentence description about what the ipfs app does which I could illustrate I’m happy to hear suggestions
<jbenet>
achin: like i said, it's ramp up is really bad, but the UX _once you understand it_ is unprecedented. UX is not just about the ramp, though the ramp is a very important part.
<achin>
for sure (maybe blender is another example we could talk about)
<vijayee_>
companion cube......svg
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: or are the pixelmator files vector based?
<ion>
dignifiedquire: Put the IPFS paper into the UI.
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: no pxm is raster
<achin>
dignifiedquire: sorry, i missed much of the earlier conversation, but is it intended that a user will routinely interact with the electron-app once the ipfs node is up and running?
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: okay, I already have a prototype of the logo in Illustrator, so will clean that up and use that
<dignifiedquire>
ion: paper?
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: can i check it out first? i spent many hours getting the proportions of the hex + circles right. im not even set on these, but tried them out in many different sizes
<dignifiedquire>
achin: it’s intended to be a monitor of the nodes state + an easy way to upload files for now
<whyrusleeping>
it looks like its probably me not wrapping a variable assignment in quotes
<dignifiedquire>
jbenet: brain and todo list are finished on my side
<M-amstocker>
hey @lgierth , I'm currently really busy with school and I'm terrible at time management but I will post my sprint on github/etherpad in a few hours
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<ion>
Is ${@:2} supported in POSIX sh?
<jbenet>
whyrusleeping: why not just: IPFS_PATH="$IPTB_ROOT/$1" ipfs ${@:2} -- and i dont think that's sh compatible
<jbenet>
dignifiedquire: sgtm!
<lgierth>
M-amstocker: hey, no worries, and thank you :)
<ion>
whyrusleeping: Btw, which shell *is* sh on your computer?
<jbenet>
ok--- ipfs-apps is over. next up, node-ipfs or go-ipfs ? whyrusleeping/daviddias
<daviddias>
let's jump into hangouts and start with go-ipfs
<daviddias>
sg jbenet whyrusleeping ?
<whyrusleeping>
sure
<ion>
A POSIX+local compatible way to do ipfsi: local dir="$1"; shift; IPFS_PATH="…" ipfs "$@"
<jbenet>
go-ipfs discussion -- anyone feel free to join o/
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<aar->
very off topic: i know about iowait, pidstat, etc. is there a single tool that can launch a process and measure % time in net versus cpu versus disk, for that process and all of its children?
<aar->
i suppose there are other wait states too... % doesnt need to add up to 100 ;)
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<M-davidar>
jbenet, ipfs apps I'm working on/interested in, in no particular order: book reader, universal markup editor/viewer, wiki, arxiv browser, universal image viewer (jp2,bpm,etc), gmane viewer, osm maps, webrecorder, search engine, click to pin, ipfs crawler/mirror, QML app distribution
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<M-davidar>
oh, and chat.ipfs.io
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<_p4bl0>
there might be a bug with 'ipfs dns' command. It seems if the TXT record contains 'dnslink=/ipns/…' then 'Error: could not resolve name (recursion limit exceeded).' is returned, while it seems to work when it contains a ipfs name rather than ipns (however it works with the http gateway)
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<lgierth>
_p4bl0: yeah you can build recursions with ipns -- what exactly do you expect, what works and what doesn't?
<_p4bl0>
lgierth: for example I'm expecting 'ipfs dns sonatagreen.com' to display '/ipns/QmbeSe5BtzdMomPhQKa1EaSyKiNxtAPXj8LDf6VGhocZTw' or to resove it to the ipfs node publiched to that ipns id
<_p4bl0>
instead it gives the error I wrote
<jryans>
daviddias: so the intent of the node-ipfs project is to be usable in a browser tab as well as node?
<daviddias>
jryans: yes :)
<jryans>
daviddias: cool! are you thinking you'll use separate browser-only transports (like webrtc) since tcp isn't available there?
<lgierth>
_p4bl0: what's the TXT record? dnslink=/ipns/? you need dnslink=/ipns/<peerid>
<_p4bl0>
yes that is what it is
<_p4bl0>
and it works on the gateway
<daviddias>
jryans: IPFS was designed in a way to support multiple transports, so in order to support browser nodes, we will be using the transports available there
<jryans>
daviddias: makes sense. a lot of the modules so far seemed to depend on tcp / fs / non-browser things, so i was a little worried, but i suppose it's just that browser ones don't exist yet :)
<_p4bl0>
lgierth: I think maybe the recursion limit of the 'ipfs dns' is 1 and when it sees a /ipns/<id> it gives an error because an additional step is required to get the /ipfs/<name> the /ipns/<id> points to
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<lgierth>
_p4bl0: oh, mh. i don't when that broke
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<lgierth>
_p4bl0: it works for me -- curl -v ipfs.io/ipns/sonatagram.com/
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<_p4bl0>
lgierth: yes it works on the http gateway
<_p4bl0>
I'm specifically speaking about the 'ipfs dns' command
<lgierth>
oh you were saying ipfs dns
<lgierth>
right
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<_p4bl0>
lgierth: it is not a big problem especially since it works on the gateway, I just wanted to let the developers know :)
<lgierth>
_p4bl0: oh you need --recursive
<lgierth>
or -r
<lgierth>
mh no
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<_p4bl0>
lgierth: with -r or --recursive it says "Error: not a valid domain name", that seems like another bug maybe
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<sonatagreen>
I just noticed the docs have ipfs.io. TXT "dnslink=/ipfs/QmRzTuh2Lpuz7Gr39stNr6mTFdqAghsZec1JoUnfySUzcy ..."
<lgierth>
the recursion thing is fine, but "not a valid domain" looks like a bug to me
<sonatagreen>
and my TXT record doesn't have the trailing " ..."
<sonatagreen>
could that be the thing?
<lgierth>
no those dots definitely don't belong there
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<_p4bl0>
sonatagreen: I think the trailing ' ...' is just to say that there can be other thing in here as long as it starts with the 'dnslink=' info
<sonatagreen>
aha
<_p4bl0>
sonatagreen: btw, I used your domain name as an example here because I'm not sure the DNS zone of mine is up to date everywhere (the change is fairly recent), hope you don't mind :)
<sonatagreen>
no problem
<lgierth>
sonatagreen: where did you find that?
<sonatagreen>
ipfs dns --help
<_p4bl0>
yep
<lgierth>
oh. i know what it might be
<lgierth>
you have another TXT record
<_p4bl0>
I don't and I have the same problem
<_p4bl0>
my domain is pablo.rauzy.name
<lgierth>
and `ipfs dns` might assume that there's only one, thus trying to resolve the non-dnslink record
<lgierth>
mh ok
<_p4bl0>
I'm not sure the TXT record propagated everywhere already, but you can check with dig
<sonatagreen>
dig sees it from my computer
<lgierth>
yeah i got it
<_p4bl0>
ok
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