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<ralphtheninja>
lgierth: I'd like to help, if I can :)
* ralphtheninja
does some awesome capoeira moves
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<rschulman>
am I right that json-ld is sorta like strict typing for json?
<daviddias>
rschulman it is not exactly strict and not necessarily 'types' and the programming language per se, but more like 'data formats'
<rschulman>
I've been trying to follow the discussion on the issue, but haven't had the bandwidth to really dig into how it would interface w/ IPFS
<daviddias>
Pretty soon, the IPLD spec will be more crystal for people to read it. But long story short, it means that we will use cbor (and serialized version of JSON) to pass things on the wire (instead of protobufs) and instead of locking down a 'key' for a specific type of value, we offer the user that is putting data on IPFS, a 'context', which we can use to
<daviddias>
identify which of the keys are merklelinks and which type of data so we now how to 'unwrap' it inside IPFS
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<daviddias>
ahaha ralphtheninja for some reason, my brain only parsed the entire chat log that was in front on me all this time, at 5:40am . Thank you for remembering that from CCC , it was fun! :D
<davidar>
daviddias: is the ipld spec public, or not yet?
<daviddias>
is is not finalized, but everything is public
<davidar>
link?
<davidar>
daviddias: Google shows me code, but no spec
<daviddias>
Apologies for lack of good documentation, yet. A lot of the push happened only in the last 15 days
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<davidar>
daviddias: no worries, just thought that I'd missed something :)
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<davidar>
OK, I'm still confused about ipld
<davidar>
I get the idea of "dump your json database into ipfs", and I like that
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<davidar>
but I still don't get what all the json @ directives have to do with that
<davidar>
*json-ld
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<davidar>
Is the main issue being able to discriminate between user data and ipfs hashes?
<davidar>
jbenet: ^
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<jamescarlyle>
davidar: don't the @directives provide a context (i.e. the schema) for the predicates?
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<jamescarlyle>
btw I have just started looking at ipfs, but spent some time with rdf when it got started
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<ehmry>
lgierth, can I get some hype peers?
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<ehmry>
lgierth, the ipfs kind, not the tunnel kind
<davidar>
jamescarlyle: sure, I understand the purpose of json-ld, i just don't understand what it has to do with json-on-ipfs (unless the user decides to use both together)
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<jamescarlyle>
davidar: i'm new to this conversation; I understand why it's useful to be able to publish linked data on a system like IFPS. json-ld could be published simply as a series of json documents on the existing capabilities of ipfs - I assume the approach the ipfs team is taking is to go beyond that, with a native understanding of the semantics of the "ld" part of json-ld
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<davidar>
and I understand full jsonld compliance is no longer part of the plan
<davidar>
what I don't understand is why the @context stuff needs to be baked directly into ipld
<davidar>
re jsonld compliance, why are we still calling it ipld?
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<jamescarlyle>
hmm. I'm catching up, so can't possibly answer any of your questions :) But it looked from the link you posted that "/ipfs/<hash-of-a>/foo/bar/baz/2/p" represents a desire to be able to use a path to address an object of a predicate
<jamescarlyle>
presume that is what you meant by "cool to dump a massive json object into ipfs and transparently address it"
<davidar>
Sure, my questions are more directed at jbenet for when he wakes up :)
<davidar>
So, here's what my current understanding is
<davidar>
Suppose you have some big json object that can't fit into a single ipfs block (<256kb)
<davidar>
Currently you have to manually split it up and then manually piece it together again at the other end
<jamescarlyle>
ok
<davidar>
I think jbenet is saying that ipfs should be able to do this transparently
<davidar>
So to the user it still looks like the original json object
<jamescarlyle>
ok
<davidar>
But under the hood ipfs is following the hash pointers to pull in all the individual pieces distributed over the network
<jamescarlyle>
but doesn't ipfs already do that (i.e. split large files into blocks, and make them available either as individual blocks or as a single file)
<davidar>
Yes, but only for streams of binary data
<davidar>
Not fit structured data like json
<davidar>
*for
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<davidar>
You want to be able to address parts of the data structure without having to replicate the entire file first
<jamescarlyle>
but whether binary or structured text, when reassembled, the integrity of the complete file is restored, no?
<jamescarlyle>
ah, ok
<jamescarlyle>
the ld part of json-ld allows statements/assertions about a "thing" or related things to be distributed across multiple files
<davidar>
Sure, but it's not good for arbitrary data structures
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<davidar>
So, say my database is a full text search index (eg a json-encoded radix tree), and I want to dump it into ipfs
<jamescarlyle>
in my understaning, the json-ld document partitioning is arbitrary - i.e. when a collection of json-ld documents are analysed, the entire graph / the entire set of RDF triples (subject, predicate, object) can be seen. It doesn't matter from an assertion p.o.v which statements appear in which json-ld doc.
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<davidar>
I'm not sure that that's what ipld is fundamentally aiming for (hence why the name is confusing me)
<davidar>
Although it's certainly one possible use case
<davidar>
But I have no idea, hence the confusion :)
<jamescarlyle>
i need to read up more on the context of this
<jamescarlyle>
i'm pulling out comments by jbenet from your link, e.g. "one massive datastructure that is traversable"
<davidar>
Yeah
<jamescarlyle>
and "one massive tree with merkle-links + immutability "
<davidar>
That stuff I understand
<jamescarlyle>
I'm trying to understand what the ipfs team's intent is - i can envisage 2 models : one where the json-ld is added to ipfs as a file, and ipfs parses the json-ld and pulls out links to other json-ld files
<jamescarlyle>
and anyone wanting to build an rdf graph would need to follow the links and parse the json-ld themselves
<jamescarlyle>
and another model, where ipfs itself has parsed the json-ld, and pulled out all the statements, where each predicate/object statement becomes itself an ipfs link
<jamescarlyle>
but i'm not sure my understanding of the ipfs team intent is correct
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<jamescarlyle>
davidar: are you in london for containercamp?
<davidar>
Australia :)
<jamescarlyle>
:)
<davidar>
When is it?
<davidar>
Oh, this weekend
<davidar>
Might explain why jbenet is quieter than usual :)
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<jamescarlyle>
i'm keen on finding out more about ipfs and was trying to see if jbenet wanted to speak to an ad-hoc london meetup while here
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<lgierth>
ehmry: ipfs peers?
<lgierth>
i can give you cjdns peering to my nodes if that's what you mean
<lgierth>
ralphtheninja: i'll make sure to cc you!
<ehmry>
lgierth, no, I mean ipfs peers on cjdns
<ehmry>
I have a weird setup where one of my computers doesn't have clearnet routing, but has hype
<lgierth>
ehmry: dig AAAA h.ipfs.io
<lgierth>
mh.
<lgierth>
need their peer-ids too
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<lgierth>
brb
<ehmry>
yea
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<blame>
lgierth: Is your cjdns-ish binding going to handle hyporia, or just general cjdns links?
<blame>
becuase last I checked, ipfs dht makes the assumption any node can talk to any other node
<blame>
and we have issues with ipv6 (nodes at this point must support ipv4) im not sure what sort of issues we would have with ipv6
<lgierth>
"any node can talk to any other node" nope! :)
<lgierth>
that's why we have relaying and supernode routing
<lgierth>
to ipfs, the cjdns ipv6 looks like any other ipv6 address
<lgierth>
totally transparent
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<blame>
cool! how does the ipv6 -> bridge node -> cjdns work?
<lgierth>
parse error
<blame>
ok, I am sitting here only supporting ipv4. I get a ipv6 address I want to dial that is actually a cjdns address
<blame>
I've started using that a lot with people who understand what it means
<blame>
as much as I cannot spell or type, I try and to accurate in my communication at least at the "intent/meaning layer"
<blame>
right now I think I am connected
<ansuz>
semantically or via cjdns?
<blame>
via cjdns
* blame
hope we are talking about being connected, not the above comments.
<ansuz>
yea
<ansuz>
so, irc.hypeirc.net
<ansuz>
he's online, but maybe afk
<blame>
fcec:ae97:8902:d810:6c92:ec67:efb2:3ec5 ?
<blame>
ping6 -> 100% packet loss I am not connected :/
<blame>
I am just going to bridge temporarily
<blame>
it is faster and not really an issue
* blame
is gumming up the routing tables
<ansuz>
the dns cycles through a bunch of addresses, you might just be trying to get to one that's on the opposite side of the net
<ansuz>
though, my node should be quite well connected
<ansuz>
when you get connected, he's in #hyperboria, though you'll have to watch out for trolls there
<blame>
trolls?
<ansuz>
maybe ask if we wants to PM or chat math in another channel
<ansuz>
yea, #cjdns is usually for on-topic technical chat
<ansuz>
#hyperboria is a slum where people chat about anything, and it's usually offensive because cjdns is close enough to anonymity for people to turn into jerks
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<blame>
weird thigns happen when you kill the tun device you are ssh-ed in via
<ansuz>
indeed
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<ansuz>
I've restarted with a messed up conf and locked myself out before
<ansuz>
I use cjdns for nat traversal with some of my nodes
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<reit>
for the javascript port, will the end user need to install anything on their machine, or is it purely browser-based?
<daviddias>
reit: it goal is to have a Node.js implementation and a browser compatible version from the Node.js one
<reit>
so it will be possible to have your site be a simple entry point into IPFS totally transparently to the user?
<reit>
that's very cool!
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<daviddias>
reit: yes! :D
<reit>
do you happen to have a generic idea how far away an alpha is?
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<daviddias>
the first step is libp2p
<daviddias>
which I'm very very close to have a working version offering the same features that the network stack in go-ipfs has, but with the new network architecture we designed (libp2p spec)
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<daviddias>
from that, I need to had a 'transport' option for WebRTC to make it work in the browser
<mmuller>
does go-ipfs currently support the new network architecture?
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<daviddias>
and then is just doing bitswap, but since we have IPLD now and the IPRS is part of libp2p, should be a jiffy for an 'alpha' :) I'm sure that there will be bugs that we missed from tests, but we hope that by having more people using it, we can increase the coverage faster
<daviddias>
mmuller: not yet, we will start the migration next week
<mmuller>
cool. I presume this will just involve updating the go-ipfs version we'
<mmuller>
re running?
<mmuller>
(i.e. no migration)
<daviddias>
yes, we don't have any intention of breaking user space
<daviddias>
nor intention nor need
<mmuller>
but it will divide the network during the rollout, correct?
<daviddias>
there might be a migration done internally to map the old obj structure to the newer one, but hopefully, without having to give trouble to the users
<mmuller>
or is the intent for go-ipfs to continue to support the old network, at least for some period of time?
<daviddias>
mmuller: the quickest path would make that happen yes, but I can't give you a clear answer on that
<daviddias>
it is all a matter of resources and time
<mmuller>
sure, understood.
<daviddias>
to make compatible bridges, we would have to invest a lot in that, which we can and if we find it is important, we will
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<daviddias>
but would our users prefer to do a migration in terms of network, or maybe even both nodes running (links to objs wouldn't be broken) for the time they need the old network to run, or would they prefer for us to invest time (and therefore a delay for them to upgrade to the newer version) to work on those bridges?
<daviddias>
it is a good question, we are considering all the options and optimization for less hassle
<daviddias>
what I can say is that the libp2p stuff is pretty exciting! :D
<mmuller>
so, last I heard there were around 150 nodes? If so, that's still a pretty tight community.
<blame>
A standard "network bridge" role might be worth looking into in the future.
<mmuller>
I, for one, would not be opposed to climbing over a net split.
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<mmuller>
but then, I lurk here :-)
<daviddias>
mmuller: there are organizations using private IPFS clusters too, we have to account for those
<blame>
so we could mirror content across multiple DHTs (other networks + incompatible ipfs versions)
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<daviddias>
Blame: yep :D
<mmuller>
daviddias: but they would be on their own isolated networks, right? So they could conceivably update at their leisure.
<daviddias>
well, we want everyone to feel encouraged to get into new releases as soon as possible :)
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<mmuller>
yeah, I would think low_update_cost + node.js_client == encouragement :-)
<reit>
<daviddias> what I can say is that the libp2p stuff is pretty exciting! :D
<reit>
it really is, i've been wanting to throw up a number of decentralized services for a while now
<reit>
but, convincing end users (e.g. grandma) to install stuff on their computers was.. undesirable
<reit>
if there's a way to make IPFS happen transparently in the background with pure javascript then that ~changes everything~
<daviddias>
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<daviddias>
and you clearly stated one of the points we want to achieve, enable people to use upgradable distributed applications
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<jamescarlyle>
daviddias: are you coming to london ahead of jbenet, or staying here awhile? Was chatting to him about arranging a talk for ipfs-enthusiasts in London
<daviddias>
jamescarlyle: That would be fun! I will arrive Thursday and leaving on Sunday for this visit, but I'm always open to come back. the Node.js user group has also asked me to come and talk about WebRTC a while ago
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<voxelot>
all the mericans here enjoy labor day?
<ReactorScram>
yep
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<whyrusleeping>
merica!
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<voxelot>
haha went to vegas for the first time.. what a circus
<ReactorScram>
When I went to Vegas, I was amazed at how many slot machines there are, they're even in the airport
<voxelot>
and every gas station... kinda rediculous
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<whyrusleeping>
ReactorScram: its surprisingly the same in montana
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<whyrusleeping>
every place you go, gas station, restaraunt, random junk store, they all have slot machines in them
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<ReactorScram>
When I started going to bars I noticed some have "video games" which is code for electronic gambling
<ReactorScram>
There's a few places, movie theaters and bowling alleys, that have actual video games, like Hydro Thunder
<ReactorScram>
oh no "video gaming" the "ing" makes it adult
<whyrusleeping>
lol
<whyrusleeping>
Tv`: ping
<Tv`>
whyrusleeping: pong
<whyrusleeping>
the pinners 'InternalPins' method returns all the keys i have to worry about keeping for the pinner, right?
<whyrusleeping>
i dont have to recursively enumerate them or anything?
<Tv`>
i'll have to read to have any clue
<Tv`>
i largely just preserved the external interface
<whyrusleeping>
so ive gotten rid of the indirect pins, and i'm moving towards storing 'private' blocks in one blockstore and the data blocks in another
<Tv`>
whyrusleeping: yeah InternalPins should be all the objects that are used for the pin state itself
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<whyrusleeping>
cool, thanks
<Tv`>
oh right now i remember, those needed to be fed to gc so they don't get trashed, riight
<Tv`>
i did write that code ;)
<whyrusleeping>
lol
<Tv`>
though
<Tv`>
it sounded like you might want to use that information to decide where to put a new object
<Tv`>
there's a time travel problem with that
<Tv`>
as in, only once the new pin dag is flipped "current" is that set of keys changed
<Tv`>
it'll already have created the objects by that time
<whyrusleeping>
yeah, i think ive got that working
<whyrusleeping>
theres just some block not found im working through
<Tv`>
it takes a DAGService and a ThreadSafeDataStore
<Tv`>
maybe it should take something else, as in "look at the data here, but store your data here", or something like that
<whyrusleeping>
yeap! thats what im doing
<Tv`>
actually, pinning doesn't look at any non-pin objects directly, iirc
<Tv`>
yeah, just passing it the right stuff should make it use a private datastore
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<whyrusleeping>
kyledrake :D
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<voxelot>
did you guys know .rich is a top level domain... im.rich/bitch anyone? :)
<whyrusleeping>
voxelot: lol, too bad you cant buy two letter domain names
<whyrusleeping>
(or can you? i might be wrong)
<voxelot>
hahaa i have no idea
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<voxelot>
wiki says single letter is reserved, not seeing anything about two
<pjz>
whyrusleeping: I think 1 and 2 letter are generally under interdict by the root level domain hosting, but you can ask them if you have a good use
<pjz>
like if you're x.org, say.
<whyrusleeping>
oh, okay
<clever>
.engineering is also a TLD
<whyrusleeping>
i knew there was something weird about it...
<lgierth>
but do let me know if you start seeing issues
<lgierth>
hey people, please upvote ^
<kyledrake>
It should have gotten to the front page by now, I think something's wrong with HN.
<lgierth>
yeah i think so, >10 points is usually frontpage material
<kyledrake>
*shrug*
<kyledrake>
Call Sam?
<whyrusleeping>
kyledrake: that might not have been a good idea, lol
<voxelot>
upvoted. going to resurrect my first site made when i was 8. warcraft gifs will live forever in the permaweb!
<kyledrake>
whyrusleeping :)
<lgierth>
kyledrake: +Aranje | larsg:) is that your page? please fix the fonts to use https google url <3
<whyrusleeping>
since we've made it to the front page before, i think it will push your post down
<lgierth>
too late i'd say, heh
<whyrusleeping>
as a 'respost prevention' measure
<mappum>
HN penalizes posts if people upvote from a direct link (no referer)
<lgierth>
oh mem
<lgierth>
meh
<mappum>
you might want to take it down and we can vote by coming from the "new" page
<lgierth>
could make it have a new hash and post again
<lgierth>
yeah
<kyledrake>
I can't retract it, I've sent it to several news sources.
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<whyrusleeping>
could just post the same link again
<whyrusleeping>
post it in the morning tomorrow
<kyledrake>
Tomorrow is Apple Day
<whyrusleeping>
hrmmmm
<kyledrake>
It wasn't link ringed, several people posted it before I even tried to.
<kyledrake>
Anyway, that's rather unfortunate.
<kyledrake>
Honestly this has been an ongoing issue. I think the new HN "algorithm" is that a bunch of people upvote something, those upvotes are ignored and Some Dude picks a sampling of stuff once or twice a day
<whyrusleeping>
lol
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<mappum>
oh snap, node v4 came out today D:
<mappum>
now i have to learn es6
<whyrusleeping>
mappum: glhf
<mappum>
now js has classes, block scoping, generators, multiline/template strings, collections, promises, symbols. what even is this language anymore
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<whyrusleeping>
mappum: just learn go :P
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<voxelot>
whyrusleeping: just learn c++ :p
<whyrusleeping>
voxelot: been there, got tired of compile times :P
<voxelot>
haha i need to learn more go
<voxelot>
but excited for a more robust node
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<whyrusleeping>
atrapado: you can also get an installation of go from their downloads page: https://golang.org/dl/
<spikebike>
where's the IPFS mirror of golang.org? ;-)
<whyrusleeping>
spikebike: haha, we're getting there
<atrapado>
thanks for the link, whyrusleeping. i see, if it didn't worked with the packaged one I would download that, but it is easier installing the package.
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<spikebike>
https://ipfs.io/ has a 404 for the install IPFS link btw
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<spikebike>
er, sorry, 502 bad gateway
<whyrusleeping>
atrapado: for sure. and soon we may have an ipfs package for you to install from the repos, instead of having to build from source
<whyrusleeping>
spikebike: which link?
<spikebike>
ah, worked the 4 times, although it's rendering strangely
<spikebike>
maybe getting slashdotted or something
<whyrusleeping>
spikebike: shouldnt be. what link?
<spikebike>
I get 5 bullets on the left then about, install, examples, projects, and blog in regular text, fairly small font half a screen away