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<mason>
Fare: Which one?
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<Fare>
Mason, the one that was founded ~3hr away walking upstream and around from Boston. Today, the subway crosses the bridge in 2 minutes.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<no-defun-allowed>
hi beach
<beach>
Hey no-defun-allowed. What are you working on today?
<no-defun-allowed>
what? i'm working on things?
<no-defun-allowed>
it's saturday
<no-defun-allowed>
i can't work on things, there's a giant midi keyboard on my desk
<beach>
Ah, I no longer pay attention to the day of the week. Sorry.
<no-defun-allowed>
it's alright, i'm in upsidedownland
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<SaganMan>
Morning beach
<SaganMan>
beach: It's weekend
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<beach>
So I hear.
<p_l>
beach: 'morning
<beach>
Hey p_l.
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<asarch>
Is there any way to short a^2?: (defun theorem (a b) (sqrt (+ (* a a) (* b b))))
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<Shinmera>
how much shorter do you want it to be? Even if you define a function that's only one character long you save a mere two characters in that example
<Shinmera>
well, per square anyway.
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<stylewarning>
asarch: (expt a 2) is the alternative
<Shinmera>
Or: (flet ((s (x) (* x x))) (+ (s a) (s b)))
<Shinmera>
But again, doesn't really save much and certainly doesn't improve readability
<LdBeth>
asarch: it’s easy from sexp to RPN, but hard from RPN to sexp without prior knowledge about which are operator
<LdBeth>
So suppose RPN is a macro accepts only predefined + - * % and ** sqrt
<LdBeth>
Which I hope would cover most case.
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<asarch>
Wow!
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<pjb>
asarch: arity = number of parameters. But in lisp, arithmetic operators take any number of arguments from 0 to call-arguments-limit, and in general, a macro cannot know how many mandatory argument are required for a given operator (function or macro), notably because it may be macroexpanded before the operator is defined!
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<pjb>
This is why we kept using lists: so that macros (and code walkers) could be implemented easily.
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<aeth>
You could do a reverse s-expression, though. (((1 1 +) 2 *) 3 /)
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<LdBeth>
What exactly kinds of data structures can be parsed from both start and end?
<pjb>
full bracketed structures.
<aeth>
The macro for an RPN-style s-expression would just do something like: `(,(car (last foo)) ,@(butlast foo))
<pjb>
(defun rreverse (sexp) (if (atom sexp) sexp (mapcar (function rreverse) (reverse sexp)))) (rreverse '(+ c (√ (+ (² a) (² b))))) #| --> ((((b ²) (a ²) +) √) c +) |#
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<pjb>
(rreverse (rreverse '(+ c (√ (+ (² a) (² b)))))) #| --> (+ c (√ (+ (² a) (² b)))) |#
<aeth>
You don't want true RPN outside of a calculator imo so this is a better way of doing it. And it's not hard to apply to every element. Just every ,@(every #'my-transformation (butlast foo))
<aeth>
(And have a case for atoms where it does nothing)
<aeth>
Or mapcar
<aeth>
Sorry, every is just for side effects
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<LdBeth>
Kick out side effects
<aeth>
CL's confusing because it has nicer named things that have no difference (like first) and nicer named things that are different
<aeth>
Always test in the REPL
<aeth>
(defun r-expression-to-s-expression (r) (typecase r (cons `(,(car (last r)) ,@(mapcar #'r-expression-to-s-expression (butlast r)))) (t r))) ; put this in a macro and add a special case for dotted lists if you want to support them in r-expressions
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<aeth>
(Or real RPN)
<pjb>
Of course, you can implement a rpn language, but you will have to explicitely define all your rpn operators. You cannot just call random lisp functions.
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<aeth>
pjb: Just one clarification. I don't think r-expressions would reverse everything, just put the first item last in an evaluated list (which means I need to add a special case for QUOTE (and FUNCTION), which I didn't do). If they're like RPN the only difference is that the operator is at the end, e.g. in my RPN calculator 4 2 / => 2
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<aeth>
So going to an r-expression would be a bit trickier. Naively, this: (let ((foo '(+ 1 2 3))) (append (cdr foo) (list (car foo))))
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<pjb>
aeth: well this means you have to delay the evaluation of variables. Usually in RPN, variables are evaluated and their value is stacked. If you want to use the quote operator after, unless you look ahead, you would have to let allt the operators evaluate the variables. I'd say this would set a bad precedent.
<pjb>
How would you distinguish between (symbol-name 'foo) and (symbol-name foo)?
<pjb>
Now quote needs to wrap the values!
<pjb>
It's silly.
<LdBeth>
(RPN 1 (+ 4 3) #'add) then
<aeth>
pjb: The main problem is that ((1 2 3) quote) becomes '(3 1 2) and another problem is that people are used to ' and #' as syntax, but they can't just write '(1 2 3) in r-expressions without a custom reader and writer.
<aeth>
You can do that, but you're still going to have to deal with QUOTE as a special case to avoid the '(3 1 2) problem
<pjb>
Sure, rreverse may be a little too brutal. You would have to code walk.
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<pjb>
But the point is that RPN is a new syntax, you have to parse it, and you cannot just convert a kind of rpn sexp into a sexp. It's antithetical to the S-exprs and lisp.
<aeth>
yes
<pjb>
And the Texas Instrument patent on parentheses in calculators is over since a long time.
<aeth>
Polish notation would have the same problem. * + 1 1 2 when you can just (* (+ 1 1) 2)
<pjb>
Absolutely. For the same reasons.
<pjb>
Only, quote would be easier :-)
<aeth>
RPN is a write-only language. A very useful one, but definitely write-only. That's why it's mainly used in calculators and programs like dc. And people accuse Perl of being write-only!
<stylewarning>
I disagree
<stylewarning>
Factor (a Lisp like language) is quite readable
<stylewarning>
Functions (known as “words”) are orders of magnitude shorter than their Lisp equivalents
<LdBeth>
Nested brackets on arithmetic look crappy
<aeth>
I use nested brackets even with my infix arithmetic. Never trust your knowledge of precedence to always work. And never trust the reader to understand all of those rules, too. And this example would need it in infix, anyway. (1 + 1) * 2
<aeth>
infix just removes the top level.
<stylewarning>
Mathematicians seem to get along just fine
<pjb>
C has 27 precedence levels. C++ even more. Smalltalk is quite unintuitive too. Infix is bullshit.
<stylewarning>
Brackets can also blur cases where you actually don’t care about order, as with associative operators
<pjb>
Hence (+ 1 2 3 4)
<pjb>
associative operators in lisp are n-ary.
<aeth>
Mathematics is two dimensional. It's a lot easier to express something clearly on paper or generated from LaTeX than it is to express it in one line of ASCII that pretends to be mathematics.
<stylewarning>
So are non associative operators, like #’/
<LdBeth>
APL has infix without introduce precedence but implicit right to left order
<LdBeth>
So 5*3+2 is 25
<pjb>
and in smalltalk, 2+3*5 too.
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<Demosthenex>
wonder if anything happened with mcclim and charms (curses)
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<LdBeth>
Continue figuring out how to fit a cons into 8 bits long word memory...
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<stylewarning>
Speaking of CL-CHARMS, I haven’t been a very good maintainer.
<stylewarning>
LdBeth: 4-bit pointers?
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<LdBeth>
So it’s untyped.
<shka_>
LdBeth: is it even possible?
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<stylewarning>
LdBeth: it depends on your runtime
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<stylewarning>
LdBeth: if all pointers are 8 bits, then it’s a useless system anyway
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<aeth>
This was just on HN, about the history of T, and one of the early points a few paragraphs in is that the move to 32-bit changed everything in how you represent your data. http://www.paulgraham.com/thist.html
<aeth>
If that's true, you'd have to look at very old solutions. Those were 16-bit, though.
<LdBeth>
The memory limit is 64k
<LdBeth>
Almost toy program
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<LdBeth>
L seems interesting, but not much info I can find
<aeth>
The IBM PC (1981-1987) had 16-256 kB RAM according to Wikipedia
<aeth>
I'm not sure how anyone used computers before 1990.
<LdBeth>
Me neither
<pjb>
aeth: there was no 50 MB Firefox to run.
<pjb>
Spreadsheets, word processors, IDE including editors, compilers and debuggers all ran in 64 KB (actually usually much less, since some memory space was taken by devices or video memory).
<pjb>
Notice that the 7090 on which LISP 1.5 ran had only 32 KW of memory, so just a tad over twice that memory. (32 KW @ 36-bit = 144 KB).
<aeth>
pjb: but I want unboxed single-floats and large unboxed fixnums, so I wouldn't want to time travel to before 2003 or so. And this is 64-bit vs. 32-bit. 16-bit sounds like a nightmare.
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<aeth>
(A Lisp system needs at least 36 bits or so.)
<pjb>
aeth: at the time, 64-bit DES was sufficient!
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<pjb>
If not just a 16-bit CRC…
<aeth>
Well, if you had expensive hardware you could probably get by in the past after 1985 or so.
<LdBeth>
I would just spend another few dollars for float point unit
<pjb>
But really, in 1975, you'd be happy with a 6502 and 1 KB of SRAM, and writing programs directly in hexadecimal…
<pjb>
The alternative was access to mainframes, which means, writing fortran or cobol on paper and waiting a day or two to know if you had compilation errors.
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<LdBeth>
Well it’s 8102 now many can access a desktop computer for verifying.
<aeth>
pjb: In 1975 I wouldn't know what I was missing and I'd happily program in a high level language like Fortran.
<LdBeth>
And before goes bare metal one can run on an emulator for easier debugging
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<aeth>
I wonder when Lisp became an acceptable Fortran. Or at least, close enough that with modern hardware we don't care.
<p_l>
aeth: 1970s or so? Then dropped for a time, but mostly because of other issues
<aeth>
When did people start doing non-symbolic numerical computations in Lisp?
<p_l>
Today people are surprised with how fast CL is
<p_l>
And some financial corps never really gave up lisp
<Demosthenex>
trip planners...
<p_l>
Though Jane Street switched, afaik, from Scheme to Ocaml pretty fast?
<rocx>
p_l: grammarly is the first major lisp user that comes to mind.
<p_l>
Used to be that ITA was the bóg name, ehh
<p_l>
AMEX was using Symbolics Common Lisp as dev platform and Allegro CL as late as around 2000
<p_l>
Raytheon was using CL Ain numeric heavy code in late 1990s and XXI century
<aeth>
Yeah, but big companies are always a decade behind in tech so that doesn't surprise me.
<aeth>
A nonzero number were probably using Windows 2000 in 2010.
<p_l>
Raytheon was using it for bleeding edge
<p_l>
So was ITA
<aeth>
AMEX was probably still following the 1990 trends.
<Demosthenex>
healthcare still uses MUMPS everywhere
<p_l>
They had a system built earlier with lisp and were supporting it
<p_l>
Like several Lisp systems at NASA
<aeth>
Demosthenex: This isn't a channel for horror that keeps people up at night.
<Demosthenex>
aeth: heh ;]
<p_l>
And finance world uses MUMPS as well
<Demosthenex>
just comparing historic notes
<p_l>
I know for a fact that Credit Suisse uses MUMPS as database as late as 2017
<Demosthenex>
funny, i teach my son lisp, and we compare it to python. i show him how he can edit "blocks" of code with emacs, and they snap together, but python you have to hand write and move everything. he says lisp is easier and makes more sense
<rocx>
Demosthenex: common lisp or scheme?
<rocx>
...oh right duh forgot which channel i'm in.
<Demosthenex>
rocx: CL. using emacs and slime
<aeth>
Demosthenex: Yes, but you can teach a child Emacs.
<p_l>
Demosthenex: Python has the (general) advantage of providing what once commercial compilers arrived with - a complete teaching manual
<rocx>
and give them carpal tunnel at the age of 10?
<Demosthenex>
we've been working on a text mode game, and he was interested in the A* and dijkstra's pathing algos
<rocx>
my keyboard isn't where i can palm the control key.
<Demosthenex>
aeth: yep, i saw that one
<Demosthenex>
we're just doing a text game as a demo, interactive fiction style, like zork or a mud
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<p_l>
Unfortunately, the emacs manual doesn't explain how the original approach worked, so people do whatever... And it often leads to pain
<Demosthenex>
atm in my pet project, i'm outgrowing views to allow me to query json data in postgres. so i may have to remap and parse the json and use postmodern to maintain several other tables. fun stuff
<Demosthenex>
it's pretty sweet that postgres can read raw json in a column, and you can use views to create a "virtual" table from that... but the operations are slow, especially with numbers.
<Demosthenex>
you have to convert to numeric every call on every row
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<Demosthenex>
postmodern includes the new upsert syntax, and i've already hacked it to do dynamic table creation with column dedup, so why not just spam into real tables ;]
<Demosthenex>
can't find a good reason to use the DAO though
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<Demosthenex>
was nice to make a POC using 100 lines of CL with a rest api and postmodern though
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