<Ober>
funny, using jni to access a star trek game
<pjb>
For the record, I've already implemented points 12, 11, 9, 8, 7, 6, 4. I'm almost a beginner Klingon programmer :-)
<Ober>
Santa Claus was a klingon...
<Ober>
Hoh! Hoh! Hoh!
<pjb>
Point 8 in particular ;-)
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<pjb>
After that, you have to hunt after your code to kill it before it ransacks the galaxy…
<Ober>
killing! killing! killing!
<pjb>
(Happily, I did it before the Internet, so it didn't go too far away (but farther than I expected)).
<pjb>
So in summary, make life of your coworker interesting: program like a Klingon!
<AeroNotix>
point 7 had me chuckling
<pjb>
You could architecture your applications like codewars.
<pjb>
The good working of the program would rely on parts of the code successfully killing other parts at the right time.
<pjb>
(bt:make-thread (lambda () (uiop:run-program "publish-to-appstore ~A" *myself*))) and have the test process kill the program before it can escape if it has any other bug…
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<krwq>
hey, do you perhaps know why doesn't ecl respect in-package inside of .eclrc? there seems to be noone active in #ecl
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<Bike>
doesn't respect?
<Bike>
like you do (in-package) but it doesn't change the file the rc is loaded in?
<krwq>
no, like I change package inside of rc but the package in repl is cl-user
<Bike>
it probably just LOADs the file, and changes to *package* are erased after a file is loaded.
<krwq>
do you know perhaps how to change package in repl then?
<krwq>
in sbcl I just change in rc file
<Bike>
in-package works in the repl too
<krwq>
yes but I would like it to be my default
<krwq>
not type it every single time by hand
<Bike>
if ecl is just LOADing then i don't know of any way
<Bike>
there might be an --eval flag you could use
<krwq>
will try, thanks
<krwq>
I just found C-c ~ by accident... pretty useful
<krwq>
(slime-sync-package-and-default-directory)
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<drmeister>
Hello lispers - how do i read a width from the argument list in format?
<drmeister>
like (format t "~10a" "thing") - but I want to read the 10 from the argument list
<Bike>
what do you mean read?
<Bike>
oh, like the length is another argument?
<drmeister>
Yes - 'v' - right?
<Bike>
yeah
<drmeister>
I don't like the CLHS description of format.
<drmeister>
Thank you
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<drmeister>
Bike: Remember when we were recently trying to run shebang scripts using sbcl - did you figure out why they stopped working?
<Bike>
nope.
<drmeister>
Well, all my profiling scripts stopped working - grrrrr.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<no-defun-allowed>
morning beach
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<drmeister>
Does anyone use shebang scripts with sbcl?
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<t3hyoshi>
Huh, today, I learned Abuse is written in lisp.
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<stylewarning>
Ask me a cool Lisp question
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<beach>
Sorry, can't think of any right now.
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<no-defun-allowed>
stylewarning: how many cons could a conser cons if a conser could cons cons?
<no-defun-allowed>
actually, remove all `er`s from that
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<[6502]>
Hi... on CLHS description of unwind-protect it's written (second example) "If an exit occurs before completion of incf, the decf form is executed anyway, resulting in an incorrect value for *access-count*"
<[6502]>
what kind of non-local exit could happen before the INCF ? (except may be if *access-count* is indeed a symbol-macro)
<trittweiler>
it could be unbound
<trittweiler>
there could be an interrupt
<trittweiler>
it could be bound to a non-numerical value
<jackdaniel>
then decf would error too
<jackdaniel>
most likely reason is an interrupt indeed
<trittweiler>
yes sure, just enumerating
<jackdaniel>
(i.e timeout)
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<trittweiler>
it could be declared to have an upperbound (integer 0 100) and it has the value 100 before the incf. In that case the decf would work :)
<[6502]>
for unbound or non-numerical decf should be as fine (as bad, that is)
<[6502]>
what are interrupts in CL?
<trittweiler>
It's usually a condition object signalled asynchroneously. Think of Ctrl-c which would signal a user-interrupt error. Or a Unix signal. These things are outside the standard, but can be relevant in praxis
<jackdaniel>
your setf expansion may return error upon incf too
<jackdaniel>
signal*
<stylewarning>
no-defun-allowed: too many a cons
<[6502]>
oh ok... i'm reading now for example about sb-ext:with-timeout
<stylewarning>
no-defun-allowed: ask another
<stylewarning>
The wildest question you got
<trittweiler>
[6502], Yes. You usually want to avoid that one, too, precisely because the timeout will occur at a completely arbitrary point of execution. And writing code that is interrupt-safe is quite hairy and such code does not compose. Sb-sys:with-deadline is better in that it will trigger the "interrupt" at more or less well-defined places.
<t3hyoshi>
Here's one for you, what's the difference between setf and setq?
<jackdaniel>
t3hyoshi: easy, setq sets a symbol value, setf is almighty macro for setting anything (extensible)
<t3hyoshi>
jackdaniel: Thanks!
<stylewarning>
BUT WHAT ABOUT SYMBOL MACROS AND SETQ
<stylewarning>
jk
<TMA>
stylewarning: for what I know, the only thing is that it needs to be able to see through the symbol macro established by with-slots
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<stylewarning>
(:
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<[6502]>
lisp garbage collector doesn't support the concept of finalizer (user-defined code that is executed on object memory recycling), correct?
<jackdaniel>
[6502]: that depends on the implementation
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<jackdaniel>
CL spec doesn't say anything about how gc should work
<jackdaniel>
afaik
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell [6502] look up trivial-garbage finalize
<Shinmera>
The CL spec doesn't even say anything about memory.
<jackdaniel>
I have one question: if CL's reader is turing complete, does it mean that CL goes one step further with a stop problem by saying, that you can't decide whenever reading terminates? :)
<[6502]>
oh ok... i was wondering about how do generator implementations can handle unwind-protect
<Shinmera>
jackdaniel: Sure, especially with #.
<stylewarning>
This channel gives so many misleading unhelpful answers
<jackdaniel>
Shinmera: yes, that was a joke
<Shinmera>
stylewarning: ?
<stylewarning>
Stop just referring to normative behavior
<stylewarning>
Refer to in practice implementation
<Shinmera>
Implementations differ. It's perfectly fine to refer to what we at least can say about all conforming implementations.
<trittweiler>
[6502], generators are usually implemented as closures. Where in your mind does unwind-protect should come into play?
<stylewarning>
Bla bla bla
<[6502]>
a Python generator that has a try-finally clause executes the finally code if it's garbage collected before exhaustion
<stylewarning>
A new user wants to know that they can do in practice with popular implementations
<stylewarning>
Not what CLHS says
<Shinmera>
And we did say that, as well
<Shinmera>
Now quit your bickering because it's even less productive than what you were actually complaining about
<jackdaniel>
given Shinmera provided link to trivial-gc both angles were covered with answer, no?
<stylewarning>
Say the most useful thing first
<Shinmera>
stylewarning: Then /YOU/ say the most useful thing first.
<Shinmera>
Jesus christ.
<[6502]>
i personally find most bits coming out of this channel very informative
<[6502]>
(except may be the last few ones :-D )
<t3hyoshi>
jackdaniel's answer to setq vs setf was educational.
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<trittweiler>
[6502], See the trivial-garbage library. trivial-foo projects is a naming conventions for library that provide a portability layer across implementations. In this case, for finalizers that are run when an object is gc'd.
<jackdaniel>
clearing misconceptions is an important task either (i.e there is no such thing as "lisp gc"), so clearing that first and then pointing to the solution seems like a reasonable action
<stylewarning>
Shinmera: I would if I see things first I suppose
<jackdaniel>
which could prevent further misconception
<Shinmera>
stylewarning: Has done me perfectly fine.
* jackdaniel
steps away from drama to eat breakfast, have fun ;)
<Lycurgus>
Shinmera, acknowledged, ty.
<Shinmera>
Lycurgus: I believe the other loggers stopped working because the channel got set +R.
<Lycurgus>
Shinmera, yest that's what I thought too.
<Lycurgus>
-t
<stylewarning>
Shinmera: I’m happy for you, but many folks are not like you
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<[6502]>
got so much to read about... thank you guys
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<jackdaniel>
I'm looking at planet lisp and what I see? bunch of C-ish code in two first posts :-)
<Shinmera>
I already apologised in the post!
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<aeth>
C, GLSL, VAX asm, no source, RISC V asm, and then a bunch of entires with no source until some CL half way down
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<Lord_Nightmare>
jackdaniel: don't scare off the newbies :P
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<jackdaniel>
they will remember me as a bad dream ;-)
<beach>
So, I am attempting to implement a primitive version of Clordane. I figured out that it is fairly easy to do function tracing in a SICL extrinsic environment, i.e., I can trace SICL functions that run inside SBCL and that are defined in a SICL first-class global environment. Breakpoints might be a small next step [no pun intended].
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<beach>
In Bordeaux threads, if a thread executes THREAD-YIELD, how does it start up again?
<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up bordeaux-threads thread-yield
<Shinmera>
Condition variables make the thread sleep until the condition variable is signalled, or until the thread is awakened for another reason (that's the unless check in the snippet)
<Shinmera>
err, not signalled, but notified is the correct term
<jackdaniel>
beach: bordeaux threads have semaphores for a few months now
<beach>
jackdaniel: Oh, good.
<beach>
Those I understand.
<beach>
I should learn about condition variables as well though.
<Shinmera>
The BT thread docs on trac haven't been updated in a long time :/
<beach>
OK :(
<beach>
Any more recent version?
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<beach>
I guess not.
<jackdaniel>
we've added tests which cover semaphore api
<beach>
Don't worry about it. Thanks for the hints.
<jackdaniel>
also interfaces have reasonable docstrings. since documentation is not boundled with the source code there is no separate document
<beach>
Got it.
<no-defun-allowed>
what are some ways to control the time spent on evaluating some expression?
<no-defun-allowed>
i want to make a simple interpreter to decide on things for a cl-decentralise program which somehow terminates after N steps/evals have been done
<Shinmera>
regular checks on some predicate
<Shinmera>
or, more dangerously and less predictable: asynchronous interrupts
<no-defun-allowed>
i have control over this EVAL, could i add an "eval count" and (shit i forgot the CL terms) raise/throw an error when the count gets too high?
<Shinmera>
signal a condition
<Shinmera>
And sure.
<no-defun-allowed>
yeah, that's it thanks
<no-defun-allowed>
i'd have to change evlist a bit to increment the counter, or use a (simple-vector 1) to the counter so i can refer to it
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<pjb>
beach: I see bordeaux-threads:make-semaphore
<pjb>
in ccl; does bordeaux-threads export different APIs on different implementations?
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<beach>
pjb: Thanks.
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<beach>
I don't know whether a semaphore is the right thing though. Maybe if I describe what I want to do, someone can tell me.
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<beach>
It's about Clordane, a debugger running in one thread, say D, debugging an application thread, say A.
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<beach>
A will check certain condition for stopping and when they are met, it will inform D that it has stopped, and then stop.
<beach>
D can examine the state of A in various ways, and the
<beach>
and then let it continue its execution.
<beach>
That's why I was thinking of a semaphore. A will WAIT on the semaphore when the conditions for stopping are met and D will SIGNAL the semaphore when it wants A to continue.
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<pjb>
beach: conditions seems to be perfectly adapted to this situation. You would just re-implement conditions with semaphores.
<pjb>
The only advantage of semaphores is that they can block multiple processes, and they can count more than 1 exclusive resources.
<pjb>
You could think of conditions as 1-semaphores.
<AeroNotix>
beach: is Clordane a name you came up with for it?
<beach>
Yes. There is an insecticide named Chlordane.
<AeroNotix>
Yeah I was thinking that
<AeroNotix>
seems a weird name!
<beach>
For a debugger?
<beach>
Come on!
<AeroNotix>
Does anyone here own a proper lisp machine btw? I saw one in SF when I visited a few years ago but it wasn't running and also tucked away in a weird corner
<AeroNotix>
beach: it's also hazardous to humans
<AeroNotix>
it's not really an insecticide
<beach>
I am pretty sure most insecticides are.
<AeroNotix>
I forget the name of the most widely used one, let me look it up
<AeroNotix>
but it's not at all directly hazardous to humans
<beach>
It has to be possible to turn into something with "cl" in it.
<AeroNotix>
pyrethoid
<beach>
Otherwise, it won't be funny.
<AeroNotix>
pyrethroid
<beach>
So now turn that into something with "cl" in it?
<AeroNotix>
beach: yeah I get kind of why you chose it. Just was interested in the naming!
<AeroNotix>
haha clypermethrin !
<AeroNotix>
joking
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<beach>
People get used to names: Chaosnet, SLIME, etc.
<AeroNotix>
Clordane is quite good to be honest. I doubt many will pick up on the organic pollutant side of it
<AeroNotix>
At first I thought it was a woman's name. But then I remembered :)
<AeroNotix>
anyway, massively OT
<beach>
The point here is that with 89 lines of code, I can already load a SICL first-class global environment into Clordane, find a function in that environment, and show the source code of the file in which that function was defined.
<AeroNotix>
rad
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<AeroNotix>
beach: are you the SICL author btw?
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<beach>
I am.
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<pjb>
Alternative name for clordane: Baygon. Beach Against Yellow buG Or Nasties
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<AeroNotix>
regarding my comment about CLHS being bad "documentation" (and consequently being labelled an idiot, thanks pjb). What are some genuinely decent online resources for looking up functions and their arguments/use-cases? I get by with using CLHS but for functions I rarely use, I find CLHS's examples to be very unreadable.
<AeroNotix>
I have cltl in my desk drawer, mostly constantly open on the LOOP pages, but for quick lookups I want it to be online
<beach>
AeroNotix: The Common Lisp HyperSpec is mainly meant for people who implement Common Lisp systems, not so much for users.
<Bike>
cltl is online, isn't it?
<AeroNotix>
beach: Right and that's the reason I'm an idiot, apparently
<pjb>
AeroNotix: the reason why you're an idiot is because when you're told that clhs is a specification, not a documentation, you keep calling it a documentation and insist on considering it as documentation.
<pjb>
Just forget it, it's NOT documentation!
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<pjb>
Now, I would say that PHP (and possibly Python too) have documentations that are mainly written (and translated!) by their users. http://php.net/docs.php Notice the "Edit" and "Bug report" buttons in the upper right corner: http://php.net/manual/en/
<pjb>
You can do the same on http://cliki.net or some other wiki.
<pjb>
Ie. don't keep treating clhs as documentation, set up a wikipedia, copy clhs to it, and start editing it to make it into a CL documentation!
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<drmeister>
How would I specify in Common Lisp the unicode point for a happy face?
<drmeister>
(format t "~c~%" (code-char #x1f601))
<drmeister>
But that doesn't work in an emacs shell.
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<AeroNotix>
pjb: thanks, enjoy your day
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<pjb>
drmeister: it works: (format nil "~c" (code-char #x1f601)) #| --> "😁" |# but you need to have a font with that character.
<pjb>
drmeister: have you updated your fonts since the last unicode update?
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<drmeister>
I'm a little more "out-there" - I'm trying to get progress bars with happy faces in jupyterlab.
<drmeister>
Now they are tooling around the galaxy in their pyramid shaped space ships - and we are stuck here with our text based command line interfaces.
<AeroNotix>
PuercoPop: thanks, slightly different from what I'm after.
<AeroNotix>
I'm really wanting to integrate something nicely into emacs versus what's currently available.
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<razzy>
the unicode is one good standardisation thing to remember
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<oni-on-ion>
is there actually klingon in there
<Bike>
klingon isn't in unicode for a variety of reasons, including that it might be copyrighted
<Bike>
there's a part of the private use area less formally reserved for it, though
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<razzy>
japan, china moved the emoji/hyeroglyphs thing foward in interesting way
<pjb>
Perhaps the most objectionable part of it, is the use of color. It would give a much saner character list if we forbid the use of color.
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<razzy>
pjb: most of the characters are redundant anyway. given enough intelectual and communication time, people would settle on very few symbols used in general communication
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<pjb>
yes, also emojis are totally void of meaning.
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<pjb>
I mean, there are scientific papers demonstrating it.
<AeroNotix>
same. I just remember all of a sudden they were called "emojis" not "emoticons". Think it was even my Mum who corrected me one day.
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<razzy>
funny shit
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<stylewarning>
Emoticons aren’t a part of UNICODE
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<Fare>
stylewarning, ... yet
<stylewarning>
(:
<Fare>
stylewarning, Unicode is the name of the consortium. The name of the character catalogue is Unicode's Monster.
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<Fare>
👾
<neuro_sys>
Just started learning lisp, what's an idiomatic way to write this crude thing which happens to be my first lisp code? https://ideone.com/al6UFB
<Bike>
it's s upposed to return a list of six numbers between 0 and 41?
<neuro_sys>
Yes
<Bike>
with no repeats?
<neuro_sys>
That are unique, yes
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<Bike>
i suppose i would write... (loop for num = (random 42) until (= (length list) 6) unless (find num list) collect num into list)
<Bike>
uh, and "finally (return list)" on the end there.
<neuro_sys>
Thanks
<AeroNotix>
neuro_sys: if you're just learning lisp, loop is a pretty ridiculous piece of functionality. It's like it's own sublanguage
<neuro_sys>
Yeah well, it seemed like it. I am only so early into Practical Common Lisp, which seems like a pretty good book so far.
<neuro_sys>
Loop constructs seemed like quite verbose and varied though.
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<AeroNotix>
neuro_sys: I find PCL's section on LOOP probably one of it's few weaknesses to be honest. Common Lisp The Language has a good section on it.
<aeth>
The problem is the requirement for repeats. Otherwise you get a very simple loop. (loop for i from 0 below 6 collect (random 42))
<neuro_sys>
Haha nice
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<aeth>
I'd say one of the flaws in the CL language is that if you need the functionality of (loop ... collect ...) there's no concise equivalent in the language itself. Usually you can get away with avoiding loop.
<AeroNotix>
aeth: I'm honestly not a fan of it
<aeth>
You could, however, take the simple loop and process it in CL afterwards
<Bike>
what would a "concise" version be, exactly
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<Bike>
since mapcar apparently doesn't count
<aeth>
For this problem, the easiest solution is probably (let ((numbers (loop for i from 0 below 6 collect (random 42)))) (replace-duplicate-with-a-fresh-random numbers))
<aeth>
At least, if you don't understand advanced loop
<AeroNotix>
does anyone have an example of the gnarliest LOOP they've encountered?
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<Bike>
i've written a few with nested conditionals. it's not graet, and also slime doesn't handle it even with the special indentation package
<aeth>
As far as duplicate replacing, you'd iterate through list and each time check to see if its tail has a duplicate of it, so MAPLIST will work. (It goes over each sublist instead of each element like MAPCAR does)
<pjb>
neuro_sys: _death's solution is nice, but it may also be more costly, since shuffle will have to call random 42 times.
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<aeth>
This almost works, but you'd still risk having the new number be in the list, so you'd have to build up a history or something and check that. (maplist (lambda (numbers) (let ((number (car numbers))) (if (find number (cdr numbers)) (random 42) number))) numbers)
<pjb>
neuro_sys: also, you have to be careful when writing shuffle, to obtain an equiprobability for all combinations.
<aeth>
I'd say death's solution is much better
<_death>
alexandria contains shuffle/iota
<_death>
you could use reservoir sampling as well
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<Shinmera>
there's a compound type specifier syntax.
<drmeister>
So just (float 0.0)
<Shinmera>
Yes.
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<drmeister>
Thank you.
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<drmeister>
I apologize for asking simple questions - but it could take me tens of minutes to figure out where to look and what to read. I appreciate it when people take a few moments out to toss back an answer at me.
<Shinmera>
No problem.
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<Shinmera>
I may not remember anything else in my life but at least I know where to find things in the clhs
<drmeister>
My neurons are all tied up remembering important addresses in the TRS-80.
<drmeister>
15360 - start of video memory!
<drmeister>
I've been waiting for a long time for someone to ask that.
<AeroNotix>
drmeister: what *exactly* does DAA do? :)
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<antoszka>
lol @trs-80
<drmeister>
That's lost even to Google.
<AeroNotix>
is there a type specifier that states the minimum/max number of bits an integer should fit into?
<Shinmera>
That gives you a max. You can use it together with AND and NOT to form a lower bound I guess.
<AeroNotix>
ok
<Shinmera>
Otherwise just use INTEGER and expand the values you need.
<Shinmera>
there's also signed-byte
<AeroNotix>
OK will use this
<Shinmera>
Though re-reading your question I'm not sure if you're asking about the maximum size that fits into an immediate?
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<AeroNotix>
I just want to specify the max bit size of an integer as a type specifier
<AeroNotix>
I think your link solves it
<Shinmera>
Alright.
<AeroNotix>
trying it out now any way
<pjb>
Note that on current posix systems (unsigned-byte 8) is the only binary file external format that's expected to be portable across implementations (and to the foreign posix world).
<pjb>
(since posix files are sequences of bytes…
<pjb>
)
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<AeroNotix>
Are there any decent computer museums in europe? I went to the one in SF that had a bunch of cool machines like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_Machine and a couple Lisp ones (symbolics, but not running/displayed nicely)
<AeroNotix>
the one in warsaw here has some rad iron curtain pure polish ones
<JeromeLon>
Hi #lisp! I am trying to get started with common lisp on MacOSX. I tried to follow the instructions given on http://lisp-lang.org/learn/getting-started/ but it quickly failed. First question: was it the correct set of instructions to follow, or did I pick an old unmaintained website?
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: which part failed?
<AeroNotix>
do you have any error messages?
<pierpa>
AeroNotix: not sure about this. Surely UK has been much stronger
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: The good thing is the only mac specific thing is the call to `brew`
<AeroNotix>
pierpa: Faggin
<AeroNotix>
dude practically brought computers to the masses
<pierpa>
ah,yes!
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: I am guessing that installing quicklisp worked (It displayed: ==== quicklisp installed ==== To load a system, use: (ql:quickload "system-name") etc)
<pierpa>
but he had to emigrate and do his work in the USA :(
<AeroNotix>
pierpa: as they all did/do
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: so where's the problem friend
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: but "sbcl --eval '(ql:quickload :quicklisp-slime-helper)' --quit" showed: "Package QL does not exist."
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: ah yes
<AeroNotix>
did you run #'ql:add-to-init-file ?
<AeroNotix>
the guide doesn't tell you to do that, weird.
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: no, there was no such instruction. At what point should I do that? now, just after install ql?
<AeroNotix>
run that, everything should work after that
<AeroNotix>
reasoning: #'ql:add-to-init-file inserts some code into your ~/.sbclrc file that autoloads quicklisp functionality into every sbcl invocation
<AeroNotix>
otherwise, when you run sbcl it won't have the quicklisp code loaded
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: It still says "Package QL does not exist.". But quicklisp showed messages saying it was loaded before the error.
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: I tried replacing ql: with quicklisp: and quicklisp-quickinstall: but they didn't work either
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<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: `cat ~/.sbclrc`, please
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: cat: .sbclrc: No such file or directory
<AeroNotix>
Anyone know where it should go on a mac?
<AeroNotix>
No idea, never used a mac personally.
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: What was the output of running (ql:add-to-init-file) ?
<no-defun-allowed>
~/.sbclrc\
<no-defun-allowed>
no backslash, oops
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<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: Sorry, I was not clear. The command you provided, which is supposed to add the line to the init file failed with the same message
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: did /tmp/ql.lisp still exist :) ?
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: yes.
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: you command line shows that quicklisp is loaded, and then that ql: does not exist.
<JeromeLon>
*your
<AeroNotix>
JeromeLon: uhm, dunno. try without the --eval section and run (ql:add-to-init-file) yourself, then
<AeroNotix>
in the repl
<pierpa>
what does (pathname "~") says on macs?
<AeroNotix>
good question^
<JeromeLon>
#P"~"
<pierpa>
hmmm
<pierpa>
no joy :)
<JeromeLon>
found it
<AeroNotix>
pierpa: wait, no, mine does the same thing.
<AeroNotix>
It probably doesn't expand
<pierpa>
it depends from the implementation
<AeroNotix>
ah ok
<pierpa>
some expand and some don't
<AeroNotix>
gotcha
<JeromeLon>
AeroNotix: so, when I ran the line to install quicklisp, it showed that it was installed. But when I ran your command line, the --load was showing an extra hint that I missed: To continue with installation, evaluate: (quicklisp-quickstart:install)