<drmeister>
Two molecules made by yours truly (well - the top one I made 25 years ago and the bottom one my student made a few months ago). Displayed in a jupyterlab notebook running in a programming environment that my group has been developing (Cando).
<pierpal>
beware of the ebook version of Recipes though
<pierpal>
buy the paper
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<drmeister>
The kernel that runs everything is written in Common Lisp.
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<zigpaw>
drmeister: looks awesome :) only thing I have noticed is that the notebook still have ipnb extension (and not something else like clnb), but I'm not a jupyter user so I don't know if that would pose a problem or not when reopening it.
<drmeister>
zigpaw: Hmm, it's not a problem because the file is a big JSON file and it contains metadata about which kernel/language created it. But I hadn't thought about that before. I'll investigate if we are stuck with that extension with jupyterlab.
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<drmeister>
We had to fork some python packages that are involved in jupyterlab - they were called ipykernel and ipywidgets. We renamed them to cl-ipykernel, cl-ipywidgets - approaching maximum silliness in naming. Hi ho.
<zigpaw>
ah, didn't know jupyter holds its data as "json blob", was thinking it looks more like 'org document'.
<drmeister>
It's not S-expressions - but at least it's not XML. Phew.
<Demosthenex>
pierpal: i was looking at buying paper, and then get the ebook for $5
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<shka_>
drmeister: now that's something that should be at jupytercon
<drmeister>
Those O'Reilly conferences are too rich for my blood. They had platinum, gold, silver and brown levels - I wouldn't even pay for brown.
<drmeister>
They even had a web page "How to convince your boss that you should go to this conference".
<drmeister>
(1) Scream really loud until he turns the car around .
<drmeister>
Nighty night.
<aeth>
There's only one conference that's worth going to.
<loke>
aeth: I know, I KNOW! The Facebook developer conference!
<aeth>
Is that the one where everyone was wearing a VR headset that one time?
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<zigpaw>
ELS?
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<loke>
zigpaw: yes, that's what I really would expect :-)
<loke>
And I really really want to go to next ELS
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<zigpaw>
would love to attend it someday, but not possible right now :/
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<zigpaw>
but I'll plan it in the years to come and surely will.
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<pierpal>
demosthenex: the ebook has parts badly mangled. save the 5$
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<_death>
personally I cannot recommend CLR.. it's the first Lisp book I gave up reading halfway
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<pierpal>
you resisted for 400 pages, then not bad.
<_death>
yes.. something like that
<jackdaniel>
I like CLR, but I've never attempted to read it from start to end
<jackdaniel>
I cherry-pick topic which I'm interested in
<jackdaniel>
due to current task or curiosity
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<_death>
every page has distracting footnotes, the writing is dry, it never goes deep - always feels as though the writer had too little time and has to just put down the normative conclusions.. the introduction said it's for "intermediate" level, and most of what I read I already had opinions about.. so maybe I'm not the audience
<_death>
*target audience
<razzy>
hi, can i easily try open genera in qemu?
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<p_l>
razzy: yes, road of least effort is to start by using ubuntu 8.04 or so in qemu/vbox/vmware
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<razzy>
p_l: i was hoping for some $ qemu-system genera.img command and be done
<p_l>
there are scripts out there that attempt to automate creating a working image
<p_l>
gets a bit easier if one has an Alpha with Tru64 already installed
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<razzy>
hm
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<p_l>
For snap4 port, you need an old ubuntu (I recommend 7.x or 8.x),dissble shadow passwords, install NIS and NFS v2, then you can somewhat safely run snap4 with Genera images from netwotk
<razzy>
too much hassle
<razzy>
looking for easier install
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<no-defun-allowed>
Okay I think I'm back now.
<no-defun-allowed>
It appears matrix->irc just silently dies if you need to re-enter your password.
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<beach>
Welcome back. Why are you using bad software?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I've had less than stellar experiences using IRC on my phone.
<no-defun-allowed>
Honestly the best solution was erc in Emacs but it's kinda slow and tedious to start Emacs.
<no-defun-allowed>
I wrote my copying GC too. I'm still sussing out the design but it happily collects conses and numbers.
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<beach>
On this 5 year old computer, Emacs starts (and stops) in less than a second.
<jackdaniel>
emacs is a painful experience on desktop; I can imagine how much worse it would be on a phone
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<no-defun-allowed>
(beach: obviously it's cause they wrote their complicated decentralised protocol using Python servers.)
<beach>
That is dwarfed by the time it takes to read a single off-topic utterance here.
<no-defun-allowed>
On this phone, it takes a few seconds, but I can imagine Termux fucked something up.
<no-defun-allowed>
I can't quite M-x slime either, there's only picolisp on Termux.
<no-defun-allowed>
So, um, garbage collection. It works, and I use a linked list of pointers to pointers that must be updated when stuff is compacted.
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<no-defun-allowed>
An integer offset is used with pointer arithmetic to get cells relative to the heap. I don't like it as Cee wouldn't let you keep an "integer" which can't be mixed with an actual integer like Go does.
<razzy>
my emacs eat up too much imho. i bet it is by using non optimal packages
<no-defun-allowed>
I use rainbow parens, SLIME and company mode sometimes. (Never got company working with SLIME. It just falls back to "stupid symbol spotting mode" every time.)
<jackdaniel>
--->#emacs
<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, back to garbage collectors.
<no-defun-allowed>
(inb4 -->#cee)
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<razzy>
what is to upgrade on garbage collecting?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Copying GC seems way easier to understand than mark and sweep.
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think there's anything I can improve on, but it was an interesting project to write one.
<beach>
Except that you have to update every reference to an object that you moved.
<no-defun-allowed>
That's true, but the benefits are quite impressive for copying.
<drmeister>
no-defun-allowed: Try irccloud for your phone - I find it works pretty well.
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<drmeister>
It gives me persistent IRC connections.
<no-defun-allowed>
My list of pointers mutates offsets with their copied places.
<no-defun-allowed>
I didn't know we were playing IRC kicking roulette.
<razzy>
no-defun-allowed: i think that obvious garbage collecting has beed done. and we can argue on heuristic how to choose most beneficial garbage collecting that differentiate because of hardware and software used. those heuristic could be interesting, but shoud be accesable for programmer
<razzy>
as libraries or something
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<no-defun-allowed>
Hi LdBeth
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<serichsen>
Hello
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<MetaYan>
Hey
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<emaczen>
In what ways can a socket be closed without me explicitly calling #'close?
<Bike>
do you mean a stream? sockets are going to be a library interface thing
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<emaczen>
Bike: I'm pinging 192.168.1.* to search for services, and when I make a successful connection I store the address and the "BASIC-TCP-STREAM SOCKET"
<emaczen>
Once it is finished some of the BASIC-TCP-STREAM SOCKETS will be closed and others will not.
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<emaczen>
Here is what lisp prints and what I mean by socket: #<BASIC-TCP-STREAM ISO-8859-1 (NIL/59) #x302004A8D8CD>
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<dlowe>
emaczen: Unix sockets can be half-closed
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<dlowe>
but presumably the tcp-stream will close a socket fully when the stream is closed
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<emaczen>
I'll just make a paste...
<emaczen>
It makes no sense to me how these sockets are closing themselves....
<emaczen>
jdz: What doesn't make sense to me is that all services are in the same state as far as I can tell but they don't all end in the same state?
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<antoszka>
emaczen: what's CO:SMAP?
<antoszka>
and CO:VALUE?
<emaczen>
just map but it is a defmethod so I can't have different datastructures be mappable and for this instance spawn a bunch of threads
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<antoszka>
was just curious whether it's some known library
<antoszka>
or your own code
<emaczen>
just my own
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<antoszka>
ack
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<jkordani>
emaczen: what does wireshark tell you? who throws the reset?
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<Xof>
slyrus: so, I powered up the most likely machine to have a mcclim/svg backend
<Xof>
I couldn't find one. I wonder whether it was a figment of my imagination. I *did* find a half-baked Canvas backend
<Xof>
(didn't get as far as accepting user input, I think)
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<Xof>
sorry! (Also, the firmware for the network card on that machine appears not to be y2k18 compliant
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<v0|d>
Xof: wow, what are the symptoms of having such a card?
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<Xof>
a message to the console once a second
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<Xof>
probably other things too. (I don't actually know what the problem is really)
<joe42>
Hello. Is there a 'preferred' way to use fastcgi & common lisp? Or basically 'which ever tool suits you'?
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<serichsen>
My preferred way would be not to use fastcgi.
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<Xach>
joe42: i'm not sure there are a lot of options regarding fastcgi. i do not think it is often used for lisp web apps. it is more typical to use a reverse proxy to a lisp web server.
<joe42>
Xach: what are ways to daemon-ize lisp?
<p_l>
joe42: don't
<p_l>
run it under a supervisor
<p_l>
do not "daemonize"
<p_l>
cheapest option if you really don't have anything else - /etc/inittab (better use runit there, though)
<p_l>
These days probably a systemd unit :/
<Xach>
joe42: yes, there are
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<Xach>
oh, i thought you wrote "are there ways", sorry
<joe42>
systemd not an option for me. I run openbsd, which is why I wanted fastcgi.
<Xach>
joe42: I use screen for that. it is not perfect but it is familiar.
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<p_l>
joe42: runit should work on OpenBSD, it's quite damn portable (except for writing to process name, but that's not critical feature)
<phoe>
I use tmux
<phoe>
I run a Lisp process in it and then, if required, I have access to its REPL
<joe42>
tmux is possible. What are some examples of supervisors, though?
<AeroNotix>
Are you joking? tmux/screen?
<AeroNotix>
Sorry for sounding brash but those are terrible options
<AeroNotix>
joe42: I'd recommend systemd, it solves 99% of issues but since you're on BSD and I'm not familiar at all with BSD. I don't know what to suggest.
<AeroNotix>
not entirely sure what to suggest since, like I said, not familiar at all with bsd but if runit is available then that route is probably best.
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<joe42>
ok
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<AeroNotix>
joe42: but if you're running a web server in CL then perhaps nginx + proxy_pass and use the typical start up scripts you've probably already got for nginx
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<AeroNotix>
and just configure nginx to proxy to the CL application, and write a runit script to start the CL application before nginx.
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<AeroNotix>
really though, systemd would be quite helpful here haha :)
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<joe42>
yeah, that part seemed pretty strait forward, and I will be testing a web server written using ningle. Thanks
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<AeroNotix>
phoe: regarding the REPL. You can embed a slime listener into your application rather than needing to have access to the terminal it ran in. That's how I've always deployed CL applications. A slime repl on a non-exposed port.
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<Shinmera>
You can't have two systems with the same name in QL.
<Shinmera>
It wouldn't know which to load.
<Shinmera>
You can have two systems with the same name in separate dists, in which case it will pick the one from the dist with a higher priority number.
<Shinmera>
(regardless of the version of the system, I might add :/)
<AeroNotix>
phoe: yes I can see that's a differently named system. I've locally renamed it.
<AeroNotix>
cl-muprocs passes 99% of tests.
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<AeroNotix>
Shinmera: thanks
<AeroNotix>
Shinmera: since you're so prolific, don't you have a library which implements: https://www.xach.com/lisp/timer/doc.html (and may already be in quicklisp?)
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<Shinmera>
I have a tiny task processor that could be used for something like this I suppose, but nothing that directly fits what you want.
<Shinmera>
Sorry!
<AeroNotix>
no worries, reason I ask is that yeah, the one that cl-muprocs depends on is SBCL only.
<AeroNotix>
which is weird af because the cl-muprocs library seems to have gone to some lengths to predicate certain forms on different implementations
<Shinmera>
Spawning a thread that calls sleep in a loop and compares time differences isn't a huge effort.
<AeroNotix>
Shinmera: it's more effort than zero :)
<Shinmera>
I probably would have written it in the time we've spent discussing libraries here :)
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<AeroNotix>
rad dude
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<earl-ducaine>
I'm having that familiar feeling of having the macro 90% written, then 50%, then wondering whether what I'm attempting is possible at all. :)
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<Bike>
do you mean (nth 1 rest), and so on
<earl-ducaine>
Oh whoops, yes. exactly
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<aeth>
earl-ducaine: I would use destructuring-bind here
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<aeth>
earl-ducaine: Unless I'm reading your requirements wrong, destructuring-bind does everything you want for free (only downside is that it *might* be slower)
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<aeth>
(destructuring-bind (medium pathname options) list ...)
<aeth>
The only difference is that that would require the list to be of length 3 and using nth does not (your approach doesn't care about the tail). You can implement not caring about the tail in destructuring-bind with (medium pathname options &rest rest) (declare (ignore rest))
<earl-ducaine>
Is there any way of doing that in the context of a macro? The reason for my need is that I'm trying to convert some old flavors code, and I'd like to rewrite the flavor defmethods into CLOS defmethods
<aeth>
I think it would look something like this: `(defun ,my-function (&rest rest) (destructuring-bind ,lambda-list rest (list ,@lambda-list))
<aeth>
The only problem is that destructuring-bind's lambda list is very similar to a macro's lambda list, so it would permit nested things like (foo (bar baz))
<earl-ducaine>
aeth: Oh I see what you're trying to do now... Yes, that looks promising....
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<aeth>
and, yes, you'd want to use gensym instead of rest, even though it doesn't really matter because there's no ,@body and even if you had an internal rest in your lambda list, it would use the inner rest from the destructuring-bind, not the outer rest
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<aeth>
If you do have a ,@body you'd have to use gensym instead of rest
<aeth>
phoe's version is more complete because it does have a body
<earl-ducaine>
phoe: holy crap! that's exactly what I was looking for.
<phoe>
earl-ducaine: (:
<aeth>
The only thing you might want to do differently from phoe's version is (let ((rest (gensym "REST"))) ...) instead of (let ((gensym (gensym))) ...)
<phoe>
yeah, to get a better gensym name
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<phoe>
my example isn't the best as I hacked it together in a minute
<aeth>
earl-ducaine: destructuring-bind is probably *the* most useful thing for macros
<earl-ducaine>
Truly awesome. Thanks again! Looking at it I can't even remember why I thought it was so difficult. :)
<aeth>
The one catch about destructuring-bind is that sometimes it's inconvenient, especially when combined with e.g. mapcar or defun, because you often want the function to have one, temporary argument.
<phoe>
hence the gensym
<earl-ducaine>
aeth: I've read that before.... Now I can see why.
<aeth>
For lambdas (e.g. use in mapcar) I wrote this: (defmacro destructuring-lambda (lambda-list &body body) (let ((expression (gensym))) `(lambda (,expression) (destructuring-bind ,lambda-list ,expression ,@body))))
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<aeth>
Then I can (mapcar (destructuring-lambda (foo bar baz) `((,baz ,bar) ,foo))) some-part-of-a-macro)
<aeth>
It saves two lines and a temporary variable and is very similar to phoe's solution for defun
<aeth>
If you don't write macros to save yourself two lines (multiplied by dozens of times in a large program), you might as well be coding in Java. :-)
<aeth>
I personally find that most macros have some structure to their s-expressions, and you either want to transform that to another structure (e.g. maybe a series of function calls) or you want to create a data structure of standard-objects/structure-objects/arrays/etc. at compile time. So destructuring-bind is incredibly useful imo.
<stylewarning>
macros should reveal abstractions not save lines
<aeth>
stylewarning: Imo any pattern that repeats itself constantly (like a temporary variable for destructuring-bind in a one-argument lambda) is a place where bugs can easily happen.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning everyone!
<aeth>
stylewarning: This imo is no different than something like dolist.
<earl-ducaine>
In particular: However, parse-macro is worth having anyway, since any program-analyzing program is going to need to define it, and the implementation isn't completely trivial even with destructuring-bind to build upon.
<aeth>
earl-ducaine: It looks like the function phoe wrote *is* parse-macro, but without the environment stuff?
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<aeth>
I'm surprised there isn't one for lambda, like the one I wrote. Happens all the time in mapcar.
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<Bike>
parse-macro is more complicated because it handles &whole differently from destructuring-bind
<aeth>
ah
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<Duns_Scrotus>
why does funcall look in the function namespace but apply looks in the value namespace
<Duns_Scrotus>
no wait
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<Duns_Scrotus>
nvm
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