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<smokeink>
https://github.com/fukamachi/myway/blob/master/src/util.lisp what's the advantage of using collectors instead of ordinary lists? In this lib the use of collectors makes it very complicated to remove routes. One can just add url routes... ad infinitum until the collector fills the whole memory with junk ; or will the junk collector collect unused stuff automatically ? (I don't think so, because it can't know which routes you don't want any more )
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<Shinmera>
AeroNotix: When I was more active doing Qtools stuff I thought about doing that, but then I remembered that I hated UI designers with a raging passion so I dropped it.
<smokeink>
so I went along trying to patch one in.. but I was surprised to find that for some reason the authors chose to use collectors instead of lists. And you can't delete stuff from collectors
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<Shinmera>
Guess you gotta restart your lisp if you make a mistake :)
<smokeink>
yeah, restart the whole NASA center, it's safer and cleaner
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<Shinmera>
Not to be a downer, but fukamachi code often has decisions I don't quite understand.
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<smokeink>
it happens to many of us.. no prob, I'll just fork his proj and hack the guts out of it until it works as I want it to. Just wanted to make sure it's not me who's missing something obvious.
<Shinmera>
Could also just use other alternatives.
<smokeink>
ok, what do you recommend
<Shinmera>
Well here's where I reveal my cunning ploy to advertise Radiance.
<Shinmera>
No, seriously though, even if you don't use Radiance, I assume there's other libraries that provide routing for Clack
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<jackdaniel>
smokeink: collectors manage a simple list. removing thing from such collector is no more than a list operation. if you want to pop from it you'll have a little harder time though
<jackdaniel>
something like (rplaca (col) (cadr (col)) (rplacd (col) (cddr (col))) ; need to be tested™
<smokeink>
yeah tried that, I'll show a snippet in a few mins
<jackdaniel>
(as of: how myway uses collectors is another story I have no clue about)
<jackdaniel>
sorry, I need to go to a dentist now, I'll try to help if I'll live :,(
<smokeink>
okay, have fun
<smokeink>
& thanks for the tip
<smokeink>
Shinmera: okay. Radiance is good when one wants a full-stack solution . Ningle is minimal, I tried it after tried a few other more complex alternatives and after Someone had told me that he just uses hunchentoot + his own macros, so I wanted to try such an approach. This approach suits me and is quite cool, you can implement on top of ningle's routing just what you need , and you don't clutter the app with stuff that you might never use, (or in the case
<smokeink>
of RESTAS , stuff which don't really work as you would want and are hard to be modified)
<smokeink>
*after had tried
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<Shinmera>
Well the thing with Radiance is that it isn't a full stack if you don't need it to be.
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<Shinmera>
But you are right in the sense that the advantages it offers are likely not going to benefit every kind of project.
<flip214>
gives me "error while parsing arguments ... too many elements"
<flip214>
looks like the d-c-m has a binding for foo locally that doesn't take any arguments
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<Shinmera>
Calling a function you're writing a compiler macro for is infinitely recursive. You can't do that.
<Shinmera>
Or rather, calling that function in its own compiler macro
<Shinmera>
That also sounds like a very nonsensical thing to do.
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<Shinmera>
After all, if you did that the function would sometimes act like a macro, sometimes like a function, depending on whether the compiler macro is expanded or not.
<schjetne>
Does Drakma work on Windows, with SSL and everything?
<Shinmera>
Yes, though you need the openssl dlls
<schjetne>
Nice, thanks.
<flip214>
Shinmera: so I'd need to provide a two-level function hierarchy?
<Shinmera>
flip214: I frankly don't know what you're misunderstanding about compiler macros, nor what you're trying to do, so
<flip214>
Shinmera: (defgeneric as-string (what &optional stream)) with a few methods.
<flip214>
for (CONSTANTP what) I'd like to just insert either (PRINC "string" stream) resp. "string" (if (NULL stream)).
<Shinmera>
(define-compiler-macro (&whole whole &environment env what &optional stream) (if (constantp what env) `(load-time-value ,whole) whole))
<flip214>
so I thought I can write a compiler macro that just inserts either of these two in call sites.
<flip214>
ah, LOAD-TIME-VALUE might be the thing I need
<Shinmera>
constantp does not do what you think it does either. the `what` is a quoted form, not a value necessarily.
<Shinmera>
In compiler macros you pretty much always need to emit l-t-v forms if you want to constant-fold.
<Shinmera>
Also my above snippet is not quite right yet, you need to check the stream too, of course.
<flip214>
and L-T-V requires me to have all the methods in another file (ASDF-required) or to use an EVAL-WHEN to have them available at load-time of the compiler-macro, right?
<Shinmera>
load-time loads methods sequentially so if all methods happen before a call to your function you're fine.
<flip214>
ah, L-T-V was returned quoted, right
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<Shinmera>
It's a macro.
<Shinmera>
So you return forms.
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<flip214>
yeah, I thought to return the form (princ "foo" stream) directly.
<flip214>
but L-T-V does that as well.
<flip214>
thanks a lot!
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<remix2000>
Hello, What’s the difference between passing a lambda prefixed with #' or without that prefix to a function?
<trittweiler>
there's no difference
<trittweiler>
(lambda (...) ...) is a macro that expands to #'(lmbda (...) ...)
<TMA>
remix2000: there is a style difference -- some people prefer the #', some don't
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<edgar-rft>
What Doug Hoyte wants to point out is that ((lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) 2) works but (#'(lambda (x) (+ 1 x)) 2) signals an error.
<Shinmera>
among other things
<Shinmera>
as I mention in the log I linked
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<remix2000>
Ok, thanks :) For me it looks more obvious without that prefix. I was only curious whether it’s permitted by ANSI standard or is there some performance overhead.
<Shinmera>
XachX: Any news on when the next QL release cycle hits? I have quite a few things piled up now.
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<no-defun-allowed>
okay so writing "concise code" is a terrible idea
<no-defun-allowed>
if you do it you tend to mash different components together which often is a pain in the ass to look at later
<Shinmera>
Speak for yourself
<smokeink>
is there a portable way to catch simple-parse-error exceptions thrown by (parse-integer)? When I catch sb-int:simple-parse-error inside handler-case it says style warning Undefined function:; SB-INT:SIMPLE-PARSE-ERROR , but it seems to work just fine
<no-defun-allowed>
yeah i can the old cl-decentralise "repl" was a 175LOC blob
<no-defun-allowed>
seems (bt:make-thread (lambda () ...)) is a little pattern of mine.
<no-defun-allowed>
would MAKE-THUNK-THREAD be a good name for a macro to do that?
<Shinmera>
WITH-THREAD or something would be better in my opinion
<no-defun-allowed>
fair
<no-defun-allowed>
that's very nice actually
<White_Flame>
smokeink: you probably have parens where you shouldn't, making an expression look like a function call
<smokeink>
oh I had some extra junk there. after removing it the style warning is gone
<Shinmera>
While you're at it you might also want to set the default-bindings to something like `((*standard-output* . ,*standard-output*) (*error-output* . ,*error-output*) (*trace-output* . ,*trace-output*) (*query-io* . ,*query-io*) ... etc)
<no-defun-allowed>
would it play nicer with SLIME then?
<Shinmera>
it causes the bindings to be inherited from the calling thread, so yes
<no-defun-allowed>
created threads sometimes write to inferior-lisp instead
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell smokeink look up clhs parse-integer
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: Regarding your convention of writing URLs into chat, please note that parens are valid constituents of URL parts, so some chats might invalidly think the closing paren is part of the URL.
<no-defun-allowed>
that's fair but my matrix client hates me and puts gibberish on non-fancy markdown URLs
<no-defun-allowed>
it's lose-lose until i find the source of the bug, sorry
<splittist>
Shinmera: mmap looks great. Thanks for all your work! (The "No documentation provided." entry under the package name looks a bit out of place. It doesn't appear in your documentation for documentation-tools, for example. Which (doc...-tools) also looks very interesting.)
<no-defun-allowed>
that's really nice
<Shinmera>
splittist: It appears because packages can have docstrings, but I usually don't provide them.
<Shinmera>
and the docs for documentation-utils were generated before Staple was fixed to do that.
<splittist>
Shinmera: Ah.
<Shinmera>
no-defun-allowed: Thanks
<Shinmera>
It looks a bit cruddy right now due to low framerates and a bug in the terrain generator that makes the splatmaps too low res
<Shinmera>
But it's getting somewhere overall.
<no-defun-allowed>
it looks very promising
<White_Flame>
looks really smooth, at 2x speed ;)
<Shinmera>
When I booted it up today still FPS were ~50 while yesterday it was ~100. I don't remember changing anything so I don't know what's going on.
<Shinmera>
Moving FPS are slow because I'm doing stupid things.
<Shinmera>
It would be unbearably slow without mmapping though, I can tell you that
<no-defun-allowed>
heh, gitlab updates the "commited N seconds ago" counter
<no-defun-allowed>
i pushed the refactored stuff for cl-decentralise including a simple netsplit solution
<_death>
a lispy mmap would return an array.. but that's not trivial to achieve :/
<Shinmera>
Right, we had the same talk about static-vectors yesterday.
<no-defun-allowed>
that's true, an array would make more sense
<no-defun-allowed>
can you turn off nayes algorithm for usocket servers? is it applicable?
<no-defun-allowed>
my cl-decentralise stress test gets only 20 synchronous ops/second, which i can't pin on any lisp functions
<Shinmera>
Do you mean nagle's algorithm?
<no-defun-allowed>
yes, my bad
<Shinmera>
Colleen: look up usocket socket-connect
<Shinmera>
There's a :nodelay option for client connections. Not sure about server connections.
<no-defun-allowed>
yeah, i don't remember it coming up for server connections
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<flip214>
Shinmera: got the new intel cpu firmware update?
<Shinmera>
Why?
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<flip214>
you asked about a slowdown
<flip214>
and the update is reported to slow things down
<Shinmera>
No, I didn't update anything, it's probably some other fluke
<flip214>
there's no debian-stable or -security update yet, that might have come in automatically even
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<schjetne>
Hmm, turns out SSL in CL wasn't trivial on any platform when you want fancy stuff like TLS 1.2
<Xach>
schjetne: what are the sticking points?
<schjetne>
I just needed to write a quick command line tool that should also work on Windows in the least painless way possible. It needs to talk HTTPS with TLS 1.2 and I'd figured I'd take the chance to sneak in some CL in the project
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<no-defun-allowed>
You can't talk about Intel not being fast, they'll cease and desist you, flip214 and Shinmera!!
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<no-defun-allowed>
Because of that stupid requirement, I doubt it'll get into Debian soon
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<jdz>
Does anybody know where's the source .org file Postmodern documentation is generated from?
<jdz>
All the .org files.
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<Xach>
sabrac might know?
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<jdz>
OK, updates will have to be coordinated through Github, then.
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<shrdlu68>
schjetne: There is a TLS 1.2 implementation in CL. Alpha quality, though.
<sabrac>
jdz: Do you want me to put the postmodern underlying org files up on github?
<jdz>
sabrac: I'd expect the files to be included in the project, yes.
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<sabrac>
jdz: OK
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<schjetne>
shrdlu68: I thought I might try seeing what version of OpenSSL CL+SSL links against and see if I can get it working that way. Or maybe just writing a script that calls cURL.
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<jdz>
sabrac: I need (well, want) prepared statements to work after DB reconnect, and I have it working locally. But bits of documentation need to be updated.
<AeroNotix>
Shinmera: reason using the designer/ui files is that half of the application doesn't really need to be written.
<AeroNotix>
(imho) it's a better way to develop Qt applications.
<Shinmera>
:shrug: I just write code.
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<AeroNotix>
Exactly, that's what I want to do, write code, but relatively interesting code though. I find placing widgets/setting defaults etc is akin to writing html/css
<AeroNotix>
bores me to tears
<AeroNotix>
I'll have a play when I finish my current thing to pick up cluic again, clearly I didn't get very far.
<AeroNotix>
Shinmera: btw, when running commonqt code through slime if there's an exception in the Qt thread (it seems?) then I can't start an Qt application again in slime, needing a restart. I'm assuming there's some state left over somewhere that I need to clear.
<AeroNotix>
(with-main-window ..) is returning -1 after immediately closing the window
<Shinmera>
If the exception happens outside of a slot or override then Qt slits its throat and it's game over.
<Shinmera>
Nothing you can do but restart.
<on_ion>
hehe
<AeroNotix>
drats
<Shinmera>
My advice is to just not write code that crashes on start :)
<AeroNotix>
all code will crash eventually
<Shinmera>
Better step away from the computer then
<AeroNotix>
I'm fine thanks
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<jdz>
Lazy statement parsing will not work with transactions.
<jdz>
There goes my shiny good idea!
<on_ion>
are we making science projects or money el oh el
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<AeroNotix>
on_ion: u bee en tee?
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<random-nick>
is there a standard function to determine if a character represents whitespace?
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<Bike>
i don't think so
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<Bike>
maybe not graphic-char-p?
<Bike>
er, nope.
<beach>
There is no such function.
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<pjb>
random-nick: there's only 1 standard whitespace character: #\space. There are a few semi-standard whitespace characters such as #\tab and #\page. But it's an application domain question whether #\return #\backspace and #\newline should be considered whitespaces or not.
<pjb>
random-nick: and then of course, there are a log of unicode whitespaces.
<Bike>
your implementation might have something about unicode whitespaces. sbcl does
<pjb>
Even while unicode specifies a whitespace character class, it's still application dependent what character should be considered whitespace!
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<fouric>
is there a pattern to which quicklisp releases have system names prefixed with "cl-" and which do not?
<Shinmera>
The pattern is: "the author thought prepending cl- was a good idea"
<Shinmera>
A sub-pattern of that is: the library is a re-implementation or binding library to another, already existing algorithm/system/library
<fouric>
ah! i can see the sub-pattern
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<flip214>
which might not even that bad an idea -- at least looking for "cl-matlab" gives better matches than simply googling "matlab" ...
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<Shinmera>
if you're looking for cl systems you should just browse quickdocs or ql:system-apropos anyway
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<jasom>
Shinmera: don't you have a cl system that's not in the ql main dist?
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<stacksmith>
Good morning! Is anyone else here concerned with github being owned by msft? I am considering moving my repose elsewhere...
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<White_Flame>
certainly there was a sizeable exodus of people away from GH right after the announcement
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<AeroNotix>
Not bothered by it whatsoever
<AeroNotix>
if you're so entrenched in github that microsoft taking it over is a problem. Did you ever really give a shit about the underlying reasons to be bothered by microsoft taking GH over?
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<v0|d>
my I ask? whats the moral of this discussion other than emotional ups&downs?
<v0|d>
lets say Im interested in concrete repercussions.
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<flip214>
v0|d: Microsoft isn't known for making bought software better, so one possible fear is that GH will slowly detoriate and so another hosting must be chosen at some time.
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<aeth>
The main alternative, Gitlab, is perfectly fine as far as software goes, but is not a social network like Github. Very quiet.
<drmeister>
Hi lispers - does the CLHS say anywhere that structs are not allowed to be redefined?
<aeth>
"The consequences of redefining a defstruct structure are undefined."
<aeth>
This generally means inline slot access and a more reliable :type for slots afaik
<drmeister>
Ah - there you go - thank you much.
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<Shinmera>
jasom: I do have a couple -- all my Radiance stuff.
<Shinmera>
They'd be in QL too if the loading behaviour wasn't disagreeable with QL's requirements :/
<Shinmera>
Or rather, they'd be in the QL dist, to be precise
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<jasom>
Shinmera: I just found it slightly humorous that you recommended searching QL to find things, when Radiance is the first thing I think of for a useful package not in QL.
<Shinmera>
Well, yes. Ideally Quickdocs should include other dists, too
<v0|d>
flip214: thnx.
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<nikki93>
hey all -- i just installed quicklisp and moved the ~/quicklisp directory to be ~/.quicklisp instead because i like it not showing up in my usual ~ directory listing and updated .sbclrc accordingly
<nikki93>
now i was wondering about the ql:*local-project-directories* thing -- do you usually set that in your .sbclrc too? and is it ok if that directory has non-lisp projects too? I like putting all of my projects as directories in ~/Development, whatever language they use
<Shinmera>
It can contain whatever, QL will just scan for *.asd files.
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<nikki93>
sweet thanks
<pjb>
stacksmith: I've always been concerned by github being a commercial operation (.com). This is why I have my own git repository. And then I used gitorious.org ; but gitorious.org, begin not a commercial operation had financial problems. Finally they've been rescued by gitlab.com a commercial operation (but European based instead of US, so closer to heart).
<pjb>
stacksmith: there's also framasoft.org, which is non-commercial and even closer (French).
<nikki93>
Shinmera: thanks -- do you recommend setting it in .sbclrc btw
<whartung>
concerned about what? github just changing its terms?
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<Shinmera>
nikki93: That's an easy way, sure. You could also symlink the default local-projects directory.
<nikki93>
Shinmera: interesting
<pjb>
stacksmith: and for enterprise git, I set up my own gitlab on enterprise owned servers.
<Shinmera>
nikki93: The latter has the advantage that it'll work with all implementations immediately, whereas otherwise you need to add the line to each init file.
<nikki93>
Shinmera: yeah i like the symlink idea
<nikki93>
are there any catches there or does that generally work
<Shinmera>
should just work
<nikki93>
sweet thanks
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<pjb>
stacksmith: that said, better Microsoft than Facebook…
<stacksmith>
pjb: much appreciated. I actually started moving things to gitlab.com. While commercial, at least gitlab not invested in sinking open-source.
<stacksmith>
pjb: and all the evil ones put together does not even begin to approach Google...
<Shinmera>
Hating on companies is cool and all but it's off-topic.
<stacksmith>
Shinmera: true enough, although the subject of where to keep source is on-topic.
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<defaultxr>
does anyone know if there is some way to get output sent to the slime-repl buffer from a command run via uiop:run-program in real-time, as it's printed by the command? i wrote a basic shell script to test that just does 'echo hi' and then 'sleep 10', and while i see 'hi' right away when i run it from the command line, if i run (uiop:run-program "/path/to/test.sh" :output *standard-output*) in my lisp, i only
<defaultxr>
see 'hi' after the script exits, after the 'sleep 20' finishes. using SBCL 1.4.10, Emacs 26.1, Swank from Quicklisp, Slime from MELPA. already tried using (finish-output) in case that would have any effect but it doesn't seem to.
<Shinmera>
Colleen: tell defaultxr look up simple-inferiors
<defaultxr>
trying this, but unfortunately it has the same issue... running (simple-inferiors:run "/path/to/test.sh" :output t) and i don't get the output until the script finishes
<pjb>
stacksmith: but of course, the question is that any of those repositories may fail or be bought by evil companies. The only solution is to clone your repositories on all of them…
<Shinmera>
defaultxr: Works for me
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<Shinmera>
defaultxr: also, are you sure you pasted the right example? There's a second required argument to the function...
<defaultxr>
oops, yeah, i did include an empty list for the arguments
<defaultxr>
but yeah... it doesn't work for me. are you using sbcl 1.4.10 as well Shinmera ?
<Shinmera>
Yes.
<stacksmith>
pjb: I am not entirely paranoid yet - just don't want to waste time, support evil or eat animals, whenever possible.
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<pjb>
stacksmith: it's not being paranoid. common-lisp.net has already been done. gitorius.org has been bought by gitlab.com, and github.com has been bought by microsoft.
<pjb>
even github.com has already been down, several time (or if not specifically done, at least unaccessible for 24 hours from certain parts of the network).