p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | TEMPORARY REGISTRATION REQUIREMENT IN EFFECT | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<splittist> morning beach
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<ebrasca> Morning beach
<ebrasca> Morning splittist
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<matzy_> i have a dumb question. is it possible to use hunchentoot as just a simple back-end api that talks to a database and sends json data to a react front-end?
<matzy_> like i dont need it to serve html pages or anything like that, just provide data for the front-end
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<no-defun-allowed> Yes, you can tell hunchentoot to serve any data.
<matzy_> is that what dispatchers are for?
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<no-defun-allowed> You can return any string from define-easy-handler, which can be JSON text.
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<matzy_> not to make you read even 25% of this, but this is basically what i want right? https://www.darkchestnut.com/2019/http-routing-libraries-hunchentoot/
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<no-defun-allowed> I'm not sure, I don't write REST or whatever programs.
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<no-defun-allowed> I write something like (define-easy-handler (foobar :uri "/foobar") (name) ...) and can pass NAME as a query parameter.
<matzy_> ah ok
<matzy_> so in your example, what if you have a big json object?
<matzy_> just stays as one variable?
<matzy_> does cl treat it as a string? or is this getting into clos
<no-defun-allowed> Just return the string that you want to send.
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<no-defun-allowed> (and maybe set the content-type to represent what you are sending correctly.)
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<matzy_> ok awesome. thanks for the help
<matzy_> i'll screw around some more
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<matzy_> this language has a crazy high learning curve, but i love it at the same time
<no-defun-allowed> You're likely approaching it wrong if it has a high learning curve.
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<no-defun-allowed> Maybe not wrong, sorry, but in a way that doesn't utilise what you find easy.
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<matzy_> well i thought building a super simple api would solve that problem, but it really hasn;t
<matzy_> i've been through the first 4 chapters of PCL which has helped some
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<saturn2> you can also write the http response to a stream, if you want
<matzy_> But like I went to this site (seems just what im looking for), http://quickdocs.org/simple-routes/, and go to run the demo, and it tells me "The name "CL-WHO" does not designate any package
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<saturn2> something like (let ((stream (hunchentoot:send-headers))) (encode-json-to-stream stream data))
<saturn2> you probably need to load cl-who by (ql:quickload "cl-who")
<matzy_> at the top the author has:
<matzy_> *had:
<matzy_> (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes))
<matzy_> that doesn't load the packages via ql?
<saturn2> no
<matzy_> ahhhh ok
<matzy_> i wonder why the author wouldnt include that in his demo
<matzy_> should the ql loads come before or after the defpackage?
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<saturn2> the .asd file should be named the same as the system it defines so quicklisp can find it
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<pjb> matzy_: so, HTTP has been invented 30 years ago, and you still don't know it has nothing to do with HML?
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<matzy_> pjb no but from i was reading on the hunchentoot docs it was talking a lot about serving webpages, which i dont want it to do
<matzy_> and that simple-routes repo makes no sense, it tells you to call an .asd file that doesn't exist
<pjb> a web server just serves resources. URL are universal RESOURCE locators, not HTML web page locators.
<matzy_> right, but the docs went straight into serving html pages back from routes
<matzy_> and i need json, so i got a bit lost
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<matzy_> like i wish there was a stupid simple example i could see to grok it
<pjb> matzy_: the first example in the doc!!!! https://edicl.github.io/hunchentoot/#teen-age
<pjb> (hunchentoot:define-easy-handler (say-yo :uri "/yo") (name) (setf (hunchentoot:content-type*) "text/plain") (format nil "Hey~@[ ~A~]!" name))
<saturn2> matzy_: you can probably just do (ql:quickload "simpleroutes-demo")
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<pjb> s-text/plain-application/json-
<matzy_> ok now that i did get working :)
<matzy_> i see what you mean about the json too, thanks
<pjb> matzy_: forget about canned batteries-included stuff. It never works. Read the doc, and write your own code!
<matzy_> so what's the difference between:
<matzy_> (defpackage :simpleroutes-demo (:use :common-lisp :hunchentoot :cl-who :simple-routes))
<matzy_> and
<matzy_> (ql:quickload :hunchentoot)(ql:quickload :cl-who)(ql:quickload :simple-routes)
<pjb> The former defines a CL packages. The later forms download, install and load systems.
<pjb> packages and systems are entirely UNRELATED, just like HTTP is unrelated to HTML.
<pjb> matzy_: you seem to have really strange connections in your brains…
<matzy_> i dunno, i've learned a few languages but nothing like this
<saturn2> other languages use the word "package" to mean "system"
<pjb> matzy_: my dog is called Georges, but it has nothing in common with any US president.
<matzy_> I'm originally a C guy
<saturn2> in lisp, a package is just a collection of symbols, and it's used to protect different software from namespace collisions
<jackdaniel> matzy_: "packages" in Common Lisp are similar to "namespaces" in C++
<jackdaniel> C language has no package equivalent (except of consistently used prefixes)
<matzy_> yeah thats what i was thinking
<matzy_> is there an equivalent in JS?
<saturn2> that defpackage line is creating a new package called simpleroutes-demo which imports all symbols from common-lisp, hunchentoot, cl-who, and simple-routes
<jackdaniel> I don't think there is, but I don't know JS well enough to really tell
<pjb> from the packages named "COMMON-LISP", "HUNCHENTOOT", "CL-WHO" and "SIMPLE-ROUTES", assuming they exist.
<saturn2> yes, JS has modules which are similar to packages
<Jachy> matzy_: modern JS modules are similar -- CL packages let you export symbols even.
<jackdaniel> matzy_: n.b it is a well known fact, that packages in Common Lisp confuse new programmers
<matzy_> saturn2 ok that makes sense. do they need to be ql'd first?
<saturn2> they need to be loaded somehow, ql is a tool that will load them for you
<matzy_> but i thought ql loads systems and not packages
<matzy_> maybe i just need to read more on the difference
<jackdaniel> matzy_: you may simply call (load "packages.lisp") to define packages, quicklisp is a library which is built on top of a buildsystem called asdf which underneath indeed calls compile-file and load
<pjb> Systems are set of files.
<pjb> loading a system means loading the files in some order (eg. a topological sort on file dependencies).
<matzy_> ok
<pjb> loading files _can_ have side effects, such as the creation or the modification of packages and other lisp data structure in the environment.
<matzy_> so is it that you load a system once per project and then use the package wherever?
<jackdaniel> yes. /me disconnects now, see you
<matzy_> ahhh ok. thanks!
<pjb> But otherwise, there's no relationship between systems and package. It may just happen that a system named "hunchentoot" may have files that when loaded will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT", but it's pure hasard.
<saturn2> nearly all systems will define a package with the same name, though
<matzy_> funny, i think i got an error like that earlier
<pjb> Note that packages are named with strings (usually in upper case, but not necessarily), while systems are named by lower-case strings.
<matzy_> so say you want to use hunchentoot. do you load the system and the package in the same file?
<pjb> A system may define 0, 1 or more packages. Therefore they just cannot map to package with the same name. Furthermore I just explained that system names are LOWERCASE, while package names are UPPERCASE! So they definitely cannot be the same!
<matzy_> or is there a file where you load all your packages and then require systems where needed?
<pjb> matzy_: you cannot load a package.
<pjb> matzy_: you can only define a package.
<matzy_> ah yeah ok, sorry i missed that
<pjb> This may occur when loading a file, or when calling a function or a macro, or whenever.
<matzy_> so if i have the system hunchentoot loaded, why on earth would i define a package with the same name (albeit different case)?
<matzy_> ah, is it to map the package to teh correct system?
<pjb> Yes, you would not, since if you read the documentation of the "hunchentoot" system, you will see that loading it will load files that will define a package named "HUNCHENTOOT".
<pjb> So why would you do that yourself, indeed?
<matzy_> ok, i see
<saturn2> packages help you organize your code, systems help you compile and load your files
<matzy_> ok this has definitely helped clear up some confusion lol
<matzy_> much appreciated
<matzy_> i'll read a little more on both and hopefully it'll fully click
<pjb> matzy_: but be sure to check the names, sometimes, the package names are quite different from the system name.
<pjb> and often several packages are defined. This is why asdf will display the name of the packages that are defined when the system is loaded.
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<matzy_> how do you normally check the names? docs or trial and error?
<pjb> doc, or as I said, you watch for the message from asdf when loading the system.
<matzy_> ah ok
<pjb> Also, often packages will have nicknames, and you will rather use some small nickname than the actual package name.
<matzy_> so wait, are symbols defined within packages?
<pjb> No.
<pjb> Symbols are interned or present in packages.
<pjb> They can be present by importing them, or by using a package that exports them.
<pjb> (note that importing a homeless symbol will intern it).
<pjb> matzy_: most lisp notion is indepedent and unrelated to other lisp notions.
<pjb> When there's some coupling, it's rather weak and optional.
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<matzy_> ok i'm starting to get it
<pjb> This is one thing that makes it a strong language: you can combine everything with everything.
<matzy_> thanks for much for all your time and explanation
<saturn2> symbols do have a home package, though
<pjb> Not all of them!
<pjb> (make-symbol "FOO") #| --> #:foo |# no home package. (symbol-package (make-symbol "foo")) #| --> nil |#
<pjb> This is what the #: notation means. "no home package".
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<francogrex> hi, i would like to know if anyone uses/used Linj?
<no-defun-allowed> This? https://github.com/qyqx/linj
<francogrex> this https://github.com/xach/linj yes
<no-defun-allowed> Well, I think running-Common-Lisp-in-Javaland is mostly done with ABCL now.
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<pjb> francogrex: assumedly, the author used it once upon a time.
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<francogrex> I use it frequently
<Odin-> So why were you asking?
<francogrex> I though some other lispers use it too
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<Odin-> I rather suspect those looking for CL-on-JVM would use ABCL now, and those looking for any Lisp at all would use Clojure.
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<no-defun-allowed> They would be looking for any Lisp at all for a while.
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<pjb> Odin-: sometimes, you need to generate Java code. For example, if you target dalvik.
<Odin-> Hm. True.
<Odin-> That's not CL-on-JVM, strictly, but a different usecase I forgot. :p
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<no-defun-allowed> (ql:quickload :superior-rimshot) ; ⇒ <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlxVgCqXiN0>
<no-defun-allowed> Ah yeah, Dalvik is weird.
<Odin-> no-defun-allowed: Conceded.
<Shinmera> Speaking of ABCL, it seems easye has disappeared (people are unable to contact him anywhere)
<flip214> ECL is supported on android
<flip214> Shinmera: last I know is that he got a new job in January, something about common lisp
<Shinmera> flip214: I was contacted in February and apparently the company he started working for was unable to contact him too
<flip214> oh, ouch
<flip214> that's not a good sign
<Shinmera> Yeah :(
<flip214> I'm not family, so I can't even call the Police
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<no-defun-allowed> Shit, that escalated quickly.
<flip214> Shinmera: when in February? Beginning or end?
<Shinmera> 4th, so exactly a month ago.
<flip214> hrmpf
<flip214> thanks
<flip214> for the data
<Shinmera> Apparently by then the company had been unable to reach him for weeks.
<Shinmera> I don't live in Austria, nor know where he lives, so I wasn't really able to help out.
<beach> Sounds bad.
<flip214> well, in December he applied at BRZ... in the end of December (or beginning of Jan?) I kind-of-heard that he found some better place and wouldn't start with us
<flip214> but that's just hearsay. The last sign of him was in #common-lisp.net on Feb 19th
<flip214> Odin-: thanks!
<Odin-> Or is that a different easye?
<Shinmera> No, that's the one
<flip214> at least his nick
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<pjb> easye: Hello!
<pjb> geoip of easye is Manchester 53°28'51.24" N, 2°14'14.64" S…
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<ioa> Shinmera: easye has not disappeared
<Shinmera> That's a relief, then!
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<Odin-> I believe we'd gotten to that conclusion, yes.
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<francogrex> HiI was disconnected
<francogrex> Linj I use it it is very nice but wanted to find a "soulmate" who uses it too :)
<flip214> pjb: how did you find that?
<flip214> do you have access to his google account or so?
<Shinmera> I guess he looked at the IRC hostname.
<flip214> oh, he got online in the last few minutes... "Wenn man von der Sonne spricht"
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<phoe> in Polish it's "o wilku mowa", literally, "speak of the wolf"
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<pjb> flip214: oh, I made a mistake, I took the wrong IP. From /whois easye, then https://www.geodatatool.com/en/?ip=oxi.slack.net we see it's connected from Germany.
<pjb> Nuremberg Latitude: 49.447780 Longitude: 11.068330
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<jmercouris> phoe: quick update, I tested it, it does work
<jmercouris> phoe: that is, you use extern c, compile with c++ compiler and cffi can invoke those functions
<phoe> jmercouris: good
<jmercouris> that saves me a lot of translation :-)
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<jmercouris> now to make an API for the functions I need
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<red-dot> Saw some discussion of Lisp & C++ from this afternoon. Perhaps this might be useful: https://github.com/Islam0mar/cl-cxx
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<shka_> red-dot: i recommend ECL for that
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<amerlyq> Is ECL healhy and growing or old, abandoned and dying?
<beach> The former.
<beach> amerlyq: The current maintainer is jackdaniel and he is an invited speaker of ELS this year to talk about it.
<amerlyq> So, could you still recommend using it as embedded language for new middle-sized projects?
<amerlyq> Or is there anything different? Or maybe Lisp isn't the best tool for the job nowadays (like Lua/Python hype)?
<beach> I don't recommend embedding Common Lisp in anything else, simply because I recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp. I am interested in ECL, but not for embedding.
<beach> Oh, I think if you really have to embed something, it might as well be Common Lisp.
<amerlyq> How ECL fare comparing with Guile in practice? There are not much comparison articles on the web I could find. But Guile had some incomprehensible memory corruptions last time I used it.
<beach> Especially for a "new middle-sized project" I definitely recommend writing the entire thing in Common Lisp.
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<jcowan> Are there any modern use cases for read-char-no-hang?
<beach> amerlyq: What would be your reason for using something other than Common Lisp in a new middle-sized project?
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<beach> amerlyq: I mean, if you have an existing code base written in (say) C, I can understand why you are not particularly interested in rewriting it, so in such a thing I can see embedding something like Common Lisp, but a new project?
<amerlyq> People and libs. Of course it's a people thing. And libs. It's hard when there are only 2-3 lisp devs for dozen of C/C++ ones, and half of your libs are C++ already.
<amerlyq> Of course we can write more cffi wrappers, but... it somehow doesn't "click".
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<beach> Well, that depends on the kind of project. Also, you would have to weigh the difference between your productivity in different languages with the necessity of rewriting some libraries in Common Lisp. The latter would then benefit more Common Lisp programmers.
<p_l> beach: there are various subtle runtime environment effects sometimes to take care
<amerlyq> But sometimes I wonder too if writing everything in CL would be better. Fragmentation/API suffering from such mix becomes intolerable at times.
<p_l> I have a half-started project that depends on ECL because it's easiest to build small, self-contained static binaries with it
<p_l> it does help to inline some C code, even, though I'm hoping to put everything in CFFI
<phoe> jcowan: yes, for instance, if you want to not block.
<beach> I apologize. I thought we were here because we were convinced about the virtues of writing code in Common Lisp. Should have known.
<amerlyq> Lisp is nice, but world is broken
<jcowan> Trivially yes. But in what circumstances is that more useful than a general poll/select analogue?
<phoe> beach: I thought we're here because we are writing Common Lisp, not because of ideology
<phoe> one can practice Lisp without being convinced of the set of virtues that you mention after all
<beach> I should have known better than to get involved. I will now be quiet.
<beach> Again, I am sorry.
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<amerlyq> The Night Watch by J.Mickens -- sometimes I recommend it to people, who think system engineers are a fiction and their <PlaceLanguageHere> solves everything :) https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1311_05-08_mickens.pdf
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<phoe> system design is a necessity no matter which language you use
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<phoe> also even if that language is English
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<jackdaniel> amerlyq: we are closing to a release after few years of development
<phoe> and that is amazing stuff
<jackdaniel> there is only one remaining regression to be solved
<amerlyq> oh, so that's what the gap in news means
<phoe> for the time being, you can clone and build the newest ecl from the git repository
<phoe> and have the freshmost ECL
<phoe> ;; same with CCL, though the CCL build process is more complicated
<amerlyq> it sounds somewhat scary for production :)
<jackdaniel> even after the release we won't build binaries, that's up to distributions to produce them
<amerlyq> I meant I better wait until somebody mark some RC version as "stable enough" on master branch
<phoe> if you want production quality stuff, then yes, you should wait for a release (;
<jackdaniel> either way, if you have problems with using ECL drop by on #ecl (unless you have some general lisp question, then this channel is fine)
<jackdaniel> regarding comparison to scheme -- the closest implementation to ecl in scheme world is chicken not guile
<amerlyq> phoe: yes, there is the time to upgrade old stuff (and fix upgrade problems), and the time to write new stuff (and fix its bugs). And better never mix them together. So I will wait :)
<amerlyq> jackdaniel: you have a point
<jackdaniel> as of "news gap", it is time-consuming to write quality posts, even short ones
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<pfdietz> 'I apologize for such a long letter - I didn't have time to write a short one.' -- Mark Twain
<pfdietz> 'Most internet quotations are completely made up.' -- Abraham Lincoln
<jackdaniel> 'I understood that reference.' - Captain America
<amerlyq> pfdietz: still I understand jackdaniel, it's always some mental endeavour to write it, even if you simply dump whatever mess you have in your head.
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<jackdaniel> n.b, some folks may be interested in the fact, that EQL5 project (ECL embedded in QT5) works on iphone (ios)
<jackdaniel> (and on Android, but previous release also did work there, so it is not that much news)
<amerlyq> Oh, nice. Why anybody still uses Qt ECMAScript anyway I would liked to know...
<wsinatra> amerlyq: Thanks for the Night Watch suggest, absolutely hilarious read; and a good reminder to be a little less pedantic (since I'm quit well aligned with beach's mindset)
<jackdaniel> night watch?
<amerlyq> The, night watch :)
<amerlyq> J.Mickens read
<jackdaniel> ah, I see the link now, thank you
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<jackdaniel> also, it is important to note, that ECL has now two maintainers, so even if I'm hit by the bus we are good to go ;)
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<didi> So this SBCL warning is new to me: `; caught STYLE-WARNING:; Can't preserve function source - missing MAKE-LOAD-FORM methods?' I'm compiling a method. What does it mean?
<didi>
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<didi> Here is a small example: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/2f95aa0c
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<phoe> didi: which SBCL version?
<didi> phoe: 1.4.16
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<phoe> also happening on 2.0.0
<phoe> if I try to C-c C-c forms from an unsaved buffer
<didi> Same here.
<phoe> also in a saved buffer
<alandipert> has anyone experimented with bindings for libcmark, the commonmark markdown reference library?
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<phoe> didi: can't see it on launchpad
<phoe> could you post that on #sbcl and see what the devs say?
<didi> phoe: Sure.
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<zulu_inuoe> o/
<phoe> heyyyy zulu
<zulu_inuoe> I wanted to ask a question but I forgot what it was. It'll come back to me eventually
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<phoe> you lost your last handle to it and it got garbage collected perhaps
<didi> Weak hash tables are dangerous indeed.
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<loli> Has anyone had issues with the Fset package giving off a style warning as of late?
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<phoe> what sorta style warnings?
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<phoe> I have only one:
<loli> `Generic function FSET:ITERATOR clobbers an earlier FTYPE proclamation ...'
<phoe> /home/phoe/.roswell/lisp/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/fset-20171019-git/Code/defs.lisp
<phoe> The default initial element #\Nul is not a EXTENDED-CHAR.
<phoe> oh, huh
<loli> This is on loading the package, which is quite annoying, as this shows up on my scripts
<phoe> oh wait, I get that one too
<loli> I can't find out how to disable it
<phoe> (handler-bind ((warning #'muffle-warning)) (asdf:load-system :fset :force t))
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<loli> let me add that to my script and see if that works
<_death> best way to disable it is to fix it
<loli> Yes, but it is not my package, I'd have to submit a PR and wait.
<_death> not really.. you can just patch it.. submission of PR is a bonus
<loli> well I have this script deployed via roswell, and so my coworkers get this warning as well
<_death> oh well
<loli> thanks phoe, after removing the force it worked like a charm
<phoe> loli: after removing :force?
<phoe> at this point you might get no warnings whatsoever because it'll be loading precompiled FASL files
<loli> which is fine by me
<phoe> unless you compile from source
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<loli> I must say Ros is quite nice to use. Do we have anyway of fixing a package to use various libraries within a range of versions?
<loli> That was something I was never able to figure out too well.
<zulu_inuoe> Oh I remember now. Is there a way to have quicklisp install the dependencies of a system, without loading the system itself?
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<zulu_inuoe> Best I can think of atm is to asdf:find-system, iterate through its deps (including defsystem-depends-on deps) and quickload each one
<ebrasca> Hi , I get this error http://ix.io/2doB when I try to load :next browser.
<phoe> zulu_inuoe: no idea
<phoe> I think you could hack the QL client into loading everything *but* a given system
<phoe> that should be doable by editing its sources
<phoe> (and you could possibly make a PR to quicklisp-client that achieves this in a clean way!)
<wsinatra> zulu_inuoe: Would fukamachi's Qlot work? I don't think I've more than glanced at it, but it sounds similar
<zulu_inuoe> qlot would work but I'd rather avoid it right now until I look into it later. It's fallen down a few times last I used it and want to avoid an extra dep if I can avoid it
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<wsinatra> That makes sense, I've never used it myself so it was really just a guess
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<ebrasca> I have no idea how to fix my error.
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<phoe> minion: memo for jmercouris: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
<minion> Remembered. I'll tell jmercouris when he/she/it next speaks.
<ebrasca> phoe: I think my problem is more asdf .
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<ebrasca> phoe: It loaded fine in my gentoo and after some update it stop loading.
<ebrasca> phoe: There is #nEXT-Browser
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<phoe> oh! I see
<phoe> hm...
<phoe> (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) ? I never used prove, but I wonder if that will fix it
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<phoe> (also, TIL of a new IRC channel)
* eeeeeta wonders idly whether there are any Lispy XMPP channels about
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<ebrasca> I just run (ql:quickload :prove-asdf) and what I don with it?
<akhetopnu> I have a system in common lisp that depends on a bunch of other systems. I want to compile this system into a single .fasl file *and not load it afterwards*. Is that possible? I'm tinkering with different operations, I tried compile-op (the 'best practices' page on asdf's github says it 'does not necessarily load them system') but it doesn't work as advertised.
<ebrasca> phoe: I think you mean this (prove-asdf:run-test-system :next)
<akhetopnu> is there a way to compile it without the runtime? just the system + dependencies?
<ebrasca> phoe: After runing prove-asdf I get http://ix.io/2doZ
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<ebrasca> phoe: It like load but then I don't get my :next package.
<phoe> ebrasca: that, in turn, sounds like an old ASDF/UIOP version
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<ebrasca> phoe: How to check?
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<phoe> (asdf:asdf-version)
<ebrasca> "3.1.5"
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<phoe> that's ollld
<phoe> which (lisp-implementation-version) are you using?
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<ebrasca> "1.4.9"
<phoe> go ahead and upgrade to at least 2.0.2
<phoe> SBCL 1.4.9 is ancient by now
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<phoe> hm, then grab 2.0.1, it's new enough
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<mfiano> phoe: SBCL 2.0.2 has ASDF 3.3.1, and was last updated in SBCL 1.4.2, before his version.
<phoe> mfiano: huh
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<phoe> if he has 1.4.9 when he should have a newer ASDF then
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<iAmDecim> does anyone here use roswell to handle their CL installations?
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<phoe> iAmDecim: me
<phoe> although all I use roswell for is `ros install sbcl`
<phoe> nothing fancy like using multiple implementations or versions
<phoe> and only on Linux
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<pjb> didi: your x parameter is shadowed by the loop variable x.
<pjb> didi: loop is not let or let*.
<pjb> didi: err, sorry, it seems implementations don't shadow it…
<pjb> didi: I thought loop established bindings first, and initialized later.
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<pjb> iAmDecim: I just use git and compile my implementations.
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<jmercouris> I want to add a feature to Next where you can also view the source of a given command, I'm wondeirng how to do this
<minion> jmercouris, memo from phoe: is there an IRC channel for nextbrowser-related stuff? ebrasca is having issues loading it and I think the rising popularity warrants having a separate channel by now
<jmercouris> phoe: channel, next-browser
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<ebrasca> jmercouris: hi
<jmercouris> I have a macro define-command
<jmercouris> hello ebrasca
<jmercouris> where I do save the function body, just not sure how to print the function body
<jmercouris> not sure if that makes sense
<ebrasca> jmercouris: I am updating my sbcl and asdf
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<jmercouris> OK :-]
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<jmercouris> given: (defparameter x (lambda (y) (print y)))
<jmercouris> how can I print (lambda (y) (print y))?
<jmercouris> OH there is a source form
<jmercouris> interesting
<phoe> jmercouris: you mean print the--- oh, I see
<phoe> normally you can't do that without remembering the uncompiled form in some way
<phoe> SBCL maybe does that for you
<jmercouris> Yeah, I was thinking depending on the optimize level or something
<jmercouris> I'm also afraid I'd never heard of a reference to that anywhere, but it is appearing in SBCL
<jmercouris> I'd like it to work however cross implementation, so maybe I will need to save the SEXP or something in my define-command macro
<jmercouris> just not sure how to do that
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<phoe> that's not hard
<jmercouris> how would you suggest I do it
<phoe> (defmacro define-command (&body body) `(progn (remember-body ',body) ,(expand-body body)))
<phoe> (define-command :foo :bar :baz) will expand into
<phoe> (progn (remember-body '(:foo :bar :baz)) ...)
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<jmercouris> ah
<jmercouris> so just pass the quoted form to a function
<phoe> where ... is whatever your macro actually should expand into, disregarding the side effects
<jmercouris> and save it as a variable or so
<phoe> yes
<phoe> or in some sorta hash table
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<phoe> doesn't matter, as long as you do the ',body trick
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<jmercouris> right, that makes sense
<jmercouris> probably best as a slot in the command object then
<phoe> that'll quote the body, or even the &whole if you need it, and therefore pass the whole form as Lisp data to the function
<phoe> sure, that'll do too
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<jmercouris> right, thanks
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<jmercouris> jdz: you are probably right, I've noticed erratic behvavior since updating it in my package manager
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<pjb> (defparameter *f* (lambda (y) (print y)))(function-lambda-expression *f*) #| --> nil ; nil ; nil |#
<pjb>
<jmercouris> wait a minute, why would i want nil nil nil?
<jmercouris> I assume that is an error
<pjb> jmercouris: yes, you cannot count on function-lambda-expression. You have to do it yourself like in ibcl.
<jmercouris> looks fascinating to be able to edit a DEFUN
<pjb> This is not an error, this is conforming!
<jmercouris> oh I see what you are illustrating
<jmercouris> I thought you'd loaded IBCL and it wasnt showing the body
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<pjb> For one-shot, you can also do: (defparameter *f-source* '(lambda (y) (print y))) (defparameter *f* (coerce *f-source* 'function))
<jmercouris> you know what, this could be really cool for people to save their customized Next
<jmercouris> they could edit something basically live, and then save the image that way
<pjb> you have the choice between eval, compile or coerce to transform a lambda expression into a function.
<pjb> jmercouris: definitely. ibcl is nice for image-based development.
<pjb> If you provide a REPL, you can definitely consider saving the source forms.
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<jmercouris> Yes, we will provide a repl, approximately 4 releases from now on our milestone
<jmercouris> s/milestone/timeline
<pjb> The alternative is to provide an editor, and save source text.
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<jmercouris> well yeah, but it would be really cool to do it live like that
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<pjb> Like in emacs.
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<jmercouris> now I have a different problem, (coerce '(goldfish) 'string) -> nope
<jmercouris> so I can't actually output the SEXP to the window...
<Bike> Do you want to "coerce" arbitrary objects into strings?
<jmercouris> I want to coerce a sexp into a string
<Bike> That's not what coerce means in lisp. What you want is
<Bike> clhs write-to-string
<jmercouris> ah, yes
<jmercouris> I feel a little bit silly now, I even have that in my codebase :-)
<jmercouris> I guess it is getting late
<Bike> it's impossible to remember everything.
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<jmercouris> True, I am comparing the collective knowledge of the channel to my own personal knowledge
<phoe> the collective hivemind is there for you when you need advice that your own mind doesn't produce at the moment
<phoe> a general rule of interacting with a hivemind is just to keep a decent contribution-to-request ratio, or, if you don't yet feel like contributing yourself, a decent do-your-own-homework-to-request ratio
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<iAmDecim> new slime question. so i made a basic function that just prints a string and compiled it..called it in the repl. thats fine. then i changed one character and C-c C-c again expecting it to show the updated function result and its holding the old version
<pjb> iAmDecim: did you call it again?
<pjb> (defun foo () (princ 42)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 42 --> 42 |# (defun foo () (princ 33)) #| --> foo |# (foo) #| 33 --> 33 |#
<pjb> iAmDecim: most REPL have a hook that gets called each time the prompt is displayed. So you could call your function there.
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<iAmDecim> pjb: ahh C-x C-e like with clojure
<pjb> iAmDecim: oh, yes, you used C-c C-c which just compiles it. It doesn't load it in the image.
<iAmDecim> "redifining ROOT::BLAH
<iAmDecim> ok, i see. gotcha =P
<pjb> iAmDecim: you want C-c C-l or C-x C-e.
<pjb> iAmDecim: I never use C-c C-k or C-c C-c…
<iAmDecim> C-c C-l to load it, correct? Ok, I can steal most of what i know from cider
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<pjb> iAmDecim: yes.
<pjb> it loads the whole file.
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<pjb> Few implementations load without compiling, so you're good.
<pjb> swank-mrepl.lisp is direly lacking hooks…
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<pjb> I guess you could use swank-repl:*send-repl-results-function*…
<_death> C-c C-c should've worked.. it is possible that point was not in the right place
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<pjb> iAmDecim: This is what I had in mind: https://termbin.com/gvjc
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<iAmDecim> sayoonara....ok thats funny =P
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<iAmDecim> Hmm can someone tell me whats wrong here? similar to my issue earlier except even when I execute it after loading it's not picking up on the function. https://imgur.com/a/1BNKIz3