p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
<lxbarbosa> Ive read that Haskell is way different of mainstream language but not that different of Lisp
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<Bike> haskell is an interesting language, sure
<Bike> "must know about" sounds like some kind of weird fad advertisement so i'm not going to say that
<no-defun-allowed> 10 Lisp features you must know about: number #5 will surprise you
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<fe[nl]ix> hahaha
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<lxbarbosa> no-defun-allowed: hehe
<lxbarbosa> Bike: interesting is enough... thanks!
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<lxbarbosa> :D
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<stylewarning> lxbarbosa: I think understanding strictly typed parametric polymorphism and how lazy evaluation affects API boundaries is important
<lxbarbosa> stylewarning: hm, cool. I hope there are epub Haskell books, not in the mood of touching lately :D
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<loli> lxbarbosa: there are tools lisp could easily steal, ADTS are an example (and thus deriving functions over this structure)
<loli> probably stealing effect systems would be nice. Though they are quite primitive in Haskell
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<White_Flame> stylewarning: please try to sell the keyboards to people with a lispm that need one
<White_Flame> instead of the idiot keyboard hoarders
<loli> are people selling the space cadet?
<White_Flame> ye olde original? well, just on the used market
<White_Flame> if you can find one obv
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<lxbarbosa> loli: I expect lots of fun learning it :)
<loli> lxbarbosa: you will! I find it's a nice language, though beware you might just taking harder languages like Coq or F*
<loli> stay away!
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<jeosol> Good morning beach
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<sjl> When using &key (foo some-form foo-supplied?) in a destructuring-bind, shouldn't foo-supplied be bound to true if :foo is given in the call and false otherwise?
<sjl> Why is SBCL binding the second value of the initform to the -supplied variable?
<Bike> looks like a bug to me.
<sjl> okay, I'm not losing my mind then
<Bike> and of course if you use just a lambda list it's (:FOO NIL) properly
<Bike> ah, ha ha, you can see it in the expansion
<Bike> it uses sb-int:binding* which can bind multiple values, and uses multiple values for the variables
<sjl> yeah, it works properly in vanilla lambda lists -- only seems to be an issue in destructuring-bind
<sjl> alright, I'll file a bug
<Bike> i think i have a fix
<Bike> guessing pretty hard, though, i guess an sbcl dev can probably fix it better
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<phoe> Where in CLHS are FTYPE lambda lists defined?
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<phoe> found it, System Class FUNCTION
<beach> That's not considered a lambda list.
<phoe> yes, correct
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<amazoniantoad> Hey guys. I'm trying to take two columns and generate a matrix from their multiplication. Could anyone show me how to do this? Currently I'm trying to do (elt (elt matrix i) j) and using setf to set the value. But instead of getting unique values for every cell I wind up getting the exact same row in the matrix
<no-defun-allowed> Why are you using an array of arrays? Common Lisp has n-dimensional arrays.
<amazoniantoad> oh
<amazoniantoad> So what should I be doing instead?
<no-defun-allowed> And are you talking about matrix multiplication, element-wise multiplication, or...?
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<amazoniantoad> yes, element-wise
<no-defun-allowed> And you have two 2d arrays you want to multiply the elements of?
<amazoniantoad> No. Two 1D arrays and I want to create from that a 2D array
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<no-defun-allowed> How do you get a 2D array from two 1D arrays? Something like O_i,j = M_i × N_j?
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<amazoniantoad> yes
<no-defun-allowed> Well, to make a 2 dimensional array, you can use (make-array (list columns rows)), and then (setf (aref <array> column row) value) to set an element of that array.
<pjb> amazoniantoad: and also, there's #clschool for basic questions like that.
<amazoniantoad> Thanks for letting me know pjb
<no-defun-allowed> Yeah, like that.
<amazoniantoad> thanks guys
<no-defun-allowed> (Using Petalisp, you could write (defun cross-multiply (a b) (petalisp:α #'* (petalisp:reshape a (petalisp:τ (i) (i 0))) (petalisp:reshape b (petalisp:τ (j) (0 j))))). I don't think Common Lisp is very nice for doing n-dimensional array work without some helper functions.)
<phoe> that's a big step up from simple standard CL functions though
<no-defun-allowed> True.
<phoe> I don't think amazoniantoad is a possible client for petalisp if he's still working on getting the basics of 2D arrays done - maybe in a few months, but not yet
<no-defun-allowed> Writing a step between a JIT-compiling parallel array manipulation DSL and using big loops of (setf aref) is left to the reader.
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<beach> That's not what I would call "element-wise", but hey.
<no-defun-allowed> I wouldn't call it element-wise either.
<no-defun-allowed> amazoniantoad: "element-wise" would probably refer to O_i = M_i + N_i, if I'm not mistaken.
<Shinmera> indeed it would.
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<pjb> If you don't want to do it element-wise, you can use map: https://termbin.com/5was
<pjb> but this involves allocating O(n*m) temporary conses…
<pjb> Well, you can also use (map 'vector (lambda (x) (map 'vector (lambda (y) (* x y)) v2)) v1) which should be more efficient allocating temp storage, but still O(m*n) temp space.
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<LdBeth> (april:april "1 2 3 ∘.× 10 20 30 40")
<flip214> Can a compiler macro (or normal macro) get the form(s) it's embedded in? SBCL only would work for that use case.
<LdBeth> I think there's a CLtL2 extension or something
<phoe> flip214: I don't think so. The only thing available is the environment, and that doesn't contain everything.
<Shinmera> flip214: that sounds like you're trying something very ugly
<phoe> that could perhaps be used for such communication
<phoe> but I agree with Shinmera
<adlai> clhs -
<adlai> flip214: "The value of - is the form that is currently being evaluated by the Lisp read-eval-print loop." (obviously, doesn't work in files)
<flip214> adlai: thanks, that won't help
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<flip214> I've got a function that asks the user a question - and I'd like to determine whether the outer form wants a string, boolean, or number result
<pjb> flip214: it cannot, and this is for the best. This is the best feature of lisp macros, not to be able to know anything about the outer form. This is what makes them secure!
<pjb> flip214: however, there is macrolet (and symbol-macrolet), which can be used in the EXPANSION of an outer macro. (and also flet and labels).
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<flip214> pjb: yeah, and compiler-let, and similar stuff. I'm just wondering whether there's an easier way - #'<= in the outer form requires a number, string= a string, etc.
<pjb> flip214: this let you design an outer macro, in which you can have access to a macro. The outer macro can arrange to give the information needed by the inner macro, even if comes from forms outside of the inner macro (but inside the outer macro, of course).
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<pjb> flip214: that said you are not allowed to shadow the fbinding of symbols in the CL package, or defining compiler-macros on them. So you have two ther reason why you won't be able to do that for <= or string=.
<pjb> flip214: but you can do it for your-own:<= or your-own:string=
<pjb> flip214: now, I don't think there's any guarantee about the environments for macro-expansion and compiler-macro expansion. I don't think you could conformingly pass information from a macro to a compiler-macro. This would have to be checked in the CLHS.
<pjb> flip214: but once you have a wrapper macro, you don't really need compiler-macro, and this would allow you to do stuff on forms using symbols in the CL package as operators.
<pjb> flip214: (just code-walk your inner forms, and do whatever you want).
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<phoe> flip214: the outer form should pass the expected input type to the function, that's the cleanest way I can think of
<phoe> either that, or bind dynavars
<phoe> but the latter is ugly
<LdBeth> write a type inference macro
<phoe> this escalated quickly
<no-defun-allowed> What part of [Hindley-Milner equations] do you not understand?
<flip214> phoe: Yeah, that's what I thought, too... I'd just like to avoid having my own code-walker, there are already too many of them ;/
<Inline> unless an environment is passed explicitly in the macro
<LdBeth> well, actually F_omega is required
<flip214> I hoped that I there's an easy way to see what the outer function is - and then the expected type is easy...
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<phoe> flip214: if you want a true, absolute hack, use DISSECT at runtime to analyze the stack, figure out which function you were called from, and adjust the typecheck accordingly
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<phoe> I'd shoot anyone who tried to do that in the code that I maintain
<LdBeth> I donut think expected type would be easy for lisp
<flip214> phoe: no, not at runtime, via &environment would be good enough ;)
<flip214> LdBeth: most functions have input/output types already declared, and in the worst case I have to annotate the symbol
<Inline> introspect-environment heh
<phoe> flip214: how about the symbol-macro trick then? you set a symbol-macro in the environment with the expected type that you can then macroexpand in the inner macro
<LdBeth> flip214: what if the outer function is PRINT
<LdBeth> or CONS
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<flip214> LdBeth: the query function will only occur within AND, OR, <=, STRING=, and similar stuff. It's not general-purpose.
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<flip214> thanks, everybody!
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<phoe> `AND` and `OR` will already be macroexpanded by the time your form is macroexpanded
<flip214> phoe: these are not the CL:AND and CL:OR that you're looking for
<flip214> (that even rhymes! now let's bring it into 19 syllables... ;)
<Bike> doing something different based on the return type sounds like a job for static typing. which is to say, might be in the wrong language here
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<flip214> Bike: why? a GF chooses a method based on the input type as well, so I'd see that as some kind of symmetry
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<Bike> it chooses a method based on the input _object_
<Bike> the class thereof, but nonetheless it has an actual object to work with
<Bike> (usually the class, i mean, there are also eql specializers)
<Bike> since you don't have an output object, doesn't quite work the same way.
<Bike> if it actually chose a method based on the type, you could indeed have it do different things based on the output type. but that information does not necessarily exist in lisp.
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<phoe> flip214: ooooh
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<flip214> Bike: (SATISFIES NUMBERP)
<Bike> please use words if you want to try to explain something to me
<phoe> flip214: SATISFIES is not a class
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<Bike> despite the efforts of the best alchemists i can hire, i haven't yet restored my pineal gland to its ancestral power and so cannot read minds
<beach> Sad. :(
<Bike> anyway, things like apply and eval can mess up the concept pretty hard. even just calling something like that at the repl could be a type error for ambiguity
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<Bike> if you're only using this in specific contexts, you could have those contexts pass along an additional parameter expressing what kind of result is expected, sort of like COERCE
<phoe> I just had a minor moment of enlightenment
<phoe> Aren't signals just dynamically-scoped hooks?
<beach> Signals?
<Bike> well, handlers, sure.
<phoe> Or rather - handlers
<phoe> signals are a means of invoking these hooks.
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<eeeeeta> gah Closure XML is driving me insane
<eeeeeta> usocket sockets don't have any kind of line buffering on them, do they?
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<phoe> eeeeeta: I remember that I had to FINISH-OUTPUT them
<phoe> so AFAIK they are buffered
<eeeeeta> phoe, how in the nine hells do I turn the buffering off
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<eeeeeta> I'm this close to giving up and just using SB-BSD-SOCKETS :p
<eeeeeta> this is read buffering though
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<jmercouris> how to collect only on some condition?
<jmercouris> in a loop
<beach> when <condition> collect <stuff>
<jmercouris> (loop for i from 1 to 10 when nil collect nil)
<jmercouris> wow I didn't think that would actually work
<jmercouris> next time I'll try in the REPL before asking
<jmercouris> thank you anyways :-)
<beach> Why did you not think it would work?
<jmercouris> I dont know, Loop is still very hard for me to remember everything
<beach> It is not about remembering. It is about reading the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<jmercouris> my mind was stuck on collecting nil for some reason
<phoe> jmercouris: that's (loop collect (when ...))
<jmercouris> and I was going to strip out nil at the end via some remove-if
<phoe> a slightly different construct
<jmercouris> yeah, rather than using a loop keyword
<phoe> since then the collecting is unconditional, but the collected value is sometimes NIL
<jmercouris> exactly what I was doing
<jmercouris> yes
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<beach> You can also do things like if <condition> collect <thing> else append <things>
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<jmercouris> in this case what are you appending to?
<jmercouris> the end of the list you would be collecting?
<jmercouris> rather than prepending?
<d4ryus> jmercouris: there is video from baggers about loop on youtube :) (search for 'Some Common Lisp Loop Macro Examples')
<beach> Yes, like COLLECT, APPEND adds to the end of the default list.
<phoe> (loop for i in '((1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6)) if (evenp (car i)) collect i else append i)
<phoe> ;=> (1 (2) 3 (4) 5 (6))
<jmercouris> here's something that I've wondered about for some months
<jmercouris> when we have a list right, and we join two lists together
<phoe> you can COLLECT INTO if you want named/multiple collectibles
<beach> d4ryus: It seems that video has been recommended in the past.
<jmercouris> sometimes the elements are merged, sometimes a list just gets added tot he list
<phoe> jmercouris: "merged", what do you mean
<jmercouris> sometimes they can handle a nil first value, sometimes not
<phoe> we'd need code examples to answer your question
<jmercouris> let me look in my notes
<phoe> since "sometimes" is a poor thing to answer, even if it's good tale material
<beach> I think what jmercouris is referring to is the traditional idea that Common Lisp lists behave like abstract data types, which they don't.
<jmercouris> that's more or less what I am getting at yes
<jmercouris> why are the implementation details revealed
<jmercouris> like I know what is going on underneath, I've read through all of gentle introduction
<jmercouris> I'm still looking for an example
<White_Flame> programming was more low level at that time
<beach> jmercouris: At some point, you need concrete data types to implement abstract ones. Common Lisp lists give the tools you need to do abstract stuff.
<beach> jmercouris: And these tools are dirt cheap in terms of performance.
<Bike> "linked lists have a head and a tail" is fairly anodyne as implementation details go
<jmercouris> like here's an example
<jmercouris> (append 'a '(b c d)) -> ERROR
<White_Flame> and since hardware was constrained, you needed to play games with exact storage mechanisms so as not to blow up ram
<jmercouris> (append '(b c d) 'a) -> (B C D . A)
<jmercouris> I get what is going on, but it could just as easily have been written in a smarter way to silently handle the error
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<jmercouris> why the decision to not do this?
<Bike> silently handle how?
<phoe> clhs append
<phoe> "list---each must be a proper list except the last, which may be any object."
<Bike> like, pretend A is (A)?
<jmercouris> for example
<jmercouris> or just return '(b c d)
<beach> That would be a very bad idea.
<jmercouris> or return two values or something
<Bike> why would you want that?
<beach> Hiding errors.
<jmercouris> because sometimes we do not want to handle errors
<jmercouris> I know this is a crazy idea
<jmercouris> but sometimes we don't care
<phoe> > because sometimes we do not want to handle errors
<Bike> well, you can use ignore-errors or something if you want to
<White_Flame> then the caller would have to do all sorts of extra work everyt time they wanted to use APPEND
<beach> Then you have the tools to ignore the errors.
<Bike> baking that into the standard library is gross
<phoe> yes, ignore-errors
<Bike> because sometimes we do want errors.
<jmercouris> sure, I have the tools
<jmercouris> I am asking for the rationale
<beach> jmercouris: What everyone told you.
<Bike> so that when we write wrong code and don't realize it, an error is signaled
<phoe> if you want to avoid type errors, then you'll want a language that's weakly typed by default
<Bike> we see the error and go "oh" and fix the code
<jmercouris> here is another example
<jmercouris> (nthcdr 4 '(a b c . d)) ; PROBLEM!!! D doesn't have a cdr of nil
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<jmercouris> I guess it is a decision that had to be made
<Bike> nthcdr is extremely simply defined as doing cdr n times. why complicate it with whatever hiding you want to do?
<beach> jmercouris: Again, the language is there to help the programmer find problems in the code. Not to hide them from him/her.
<phoe> CL isn't weakly typed unless you decide to (optimize (safety 0)), at which point you can have all the append symbols to lists that you want
<jmercouris> I'll think about what you all have said
<Bike> i know some languages do this but it just frustrates me
<jmercouris> I'm not saying I disagree by the way
<phoe> except then the standard says that you get what you want, which is undefined behaviour
<Bike> because the system is set up so i can't fix problems because they're fucking invisible
<beach> jmercouris: This is stuff you should know since (as I recall) you have been programming professionally for some time. It is not specific to Common Lisp.
<jmercouris> Bike: like in Python :-D?
<Bike> yes, like in python
<phoe> or in js
<jmercouris> Yeah, since 2013 professionally
<jmercouris> still, using a language as a user, doesn't mean you understand the design decisions
<Bike> lisp does do some implicit coercion stuff and i'm sometimes negative about that, but it's not as bad as in python or whatever, far as i can tell
<phoe> I can't agree that (append 'a '(b c d)) ;=> :undefined is a good idea
<beach> jmercouris: You should definitely avoid languages that silently hide problems in application code.
<phoe> especially since all user code expects that APPEND always returns a list
<White_Flame> I think "functions should behave consistently and not randomly behave differently while trying to guess at what the user intends" is a reasonable design decision
<phoe> so suddenly all code that depends on that must stop depending on that, or, hell, it can return :undefined to
<phoe> too*
<beach> phoe: Not true: (append '() 3)
<phoe> beach: wait a second
<phoe> oh right
<phoe> ...what surprises me that this is defined behaviour!
<phoe> "result---an object. This will be a list unless the last list was not a list and all preceding lists were null."
<jmercouris> Well, there are a lot of people who seem to disagree with you guys, at the very least on accident :-D
<phoe> well, they can disagree all right
<jmercouris> Python imports come to mind
<beach> jmercouris: There is lots of incompetence in software development.
<White_Flame> that's because they never hit the problems of dealing with attempts at trying to guess user intent
<White_Flame> python does not behave inconsistently
<jmercouris> lmao
<jmercouris> that's a good one
<phoe> I prefer my code to fail fast, and type errors in dynamic programming are exactly where programs should fail fast
<White_Flame> and has plenty of errors akin to append's
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<phoe> since type errors are always the programmer's or the user's fault
<beach> jmercouris: phoe puts it well. Incorrect code should fail sooner rather than later.
<White_Flame> I mean, by your rationale, "print foo" should work in python3, because it should guess tha tyou're using python 2 style
<jmercouris> oh man, let's not get into that debacle
<phoe> agreed, let's not go there
<beach> jmercouris: As an example of making the language help you, it used to be the case that (setq <var> <form>) at the REPL would silently create variable <var> if it did not already exist. That is a terrible idea, because a spelling mistake in a variable will then go unnoticed.
<jmercouris> It was also very convenient
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<jmercouris> but, true, very error prone
<flip214> I got around my type-derivation by building the reverse path for all forms in a global during compilation, so that a compiler-macro can find its current form and look up what's "above" it
<beach> jmercouris: I suggest you read the writings of Bertrand Meyer.
<phoe> flip214: care to share?
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<jmercouris> beach: which?
<beach> jmercouris: He formalized something known as "programming by contract" which is basically the idea of catching errors as soon as possible. Before him, there was a tendency to hide errors.
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<beach> jmercouris: Start with the Wikipedia article on "Design by contract"
<jmercouris> OK
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<Bike> flip214: if this is a required part of the semantics you might want to make your function a macro instead
<beach> jmercouris: If you want to be an excellent professional developer, these are things you should definitely know about.
<jmercouris> yeah, definitely
<flip214> phoe: the reversal is more or less trivial... and the compiler macro has a (&whole form) which is used in a GETHASH then
<flip214> no magic at all
<beach> I know it can be hard to motivate oneself to study these things, especially when one is "lost in a sea of mediocrity" as Dream Theater puts it.
<jmercouris> at least I don't have to study about Java Beans anymore
<jmercouris> what I like about this channel is that there are some smart people, and it can be motivating to learn from them
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<jmercouris> that's actually why I started with CL, I wanted to learn more and more thoroughly understand programming
<beach> I totally agree. That's why I hang out here too. There are some very smart and some very knowledgeable people here.
<flip214> phoe: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/762caa6f/ is the gist
<Bike> i never really thought about the "design by contract" metaphor but it's pretty good. when you're explaining something to a friend taking shortcuts and being metaphorical and stuff makes sense since they know you and can guess what you mean and so on. with a contract it has to be interpreted by disinterested lawyers and judges, and a computer cares even less than those people
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<White_Flame> that's why I refer to it as "attempting to guess the user's intent"
<White_Flame> which obviously it does not have the data to do correctly
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<White_Flame> (and obviously doesn't have the intelligence or human empathy to perform it in the first place, even if it did have more data)
<White_Flame> the intent should be solely in the invocation of the function
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<beach> Bike: Yes, reading his stuff at the time was an eyeopener for me. Before that, a program that crashed was considered the worst thing that could happen. After his writing, we understood that it was better for a program to crash (soon) rather than silently giving the wrong answer.
<phoe> the collective wisdom of the people who talk here is massive and wonderful - I keep on leaving this IRC session more and more knowledgeable and wise even after years of sitting here
<phoe> ;; and silently hope that I contribute positively to it while I'm learning more Lisp, too
<beach> Unix code, for instance, silently gave (gives?) the wrong answers. One of the rules that RMS established for the GNU project was to avoid that.
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<sjl_> re: setq autocreating variables and making typos unnoticed, this why I find defmethod not requiring a defgeneric to be annoying
<beach> I totally agree.
<beach> I have spent many hours debugging spelling mistakes in DEFMETHOD.
<sjl_> Or forgetting a package prefix on the method name. That one is extra fun.
<beach> Yes, that one too.
<beach> Interestingly, in the book "Object-Oriented Programming, The CLOS Perspective", one of the authors states that DEFMETHOD was meant to be the primary interface. I think that phrase shows the age of the book.
<dlowe> why is that worse than misspelling a function name?
<beach> If you misspell a function name in DEFUN, and try to call it with the intended name, you get an undefined function error.
<beach> Same if you misspell it in the function-call form.
<splittist> dlowe: also, defmethods are supposed to interact based on their name.
<splittist> shared name, I mean
<beach> With a generic function, you often get the wrong answer, like when you intended to override an existing method specializing to a subclass.
<phoe> (defmethod frobnicate ((object foo)) ...) (defmethod fronbicate ((object bar)) ...)
<phoe> look ma, two different GFs
<splittist> Some intellisense with completion on defmethod names based on defgenerics already defined, perhaps?
<dlowe> (defun foo-frobnicate (foo) ...) (defun bar-fornbicate (bar) ...) seems equally likely and bad.
<dlowe> but if you say so
<beach> dlowe: (bar-frobnicate ...) will result in an error.
<splittist> dlowe: if you call BAR-FROBNICATE you get an undefined. If you call FROBNICATE with a BAR, anything could happen, depending on your object hierarchy.
<dlowe> ah, I see what you mean
<phoe> dlowe: the compiler will warn you about undefined functions
<phoe> it won't warn you about undefined GFs
<beach> But I think it should.
<phoe> I wish SBCL toggled these warnings back on, or made it toggleable
<beach> And apparently, SBCL used to warn.
<splittist> beach: you should get on to that
<phoe> beach: yes, it used to warn about implicitly creating generic functions
<beach> splittist: What do you suggest I do?
<splittist> how about a whole new compiler? How hard could it be?
<beach> Piece of cake. I am on it...
<splittist> And a program editor, of course.
<splittist> With an OS to fit them together. Next week is fine.
<beach> Oh, man, I have articles to update. Can it wait another week?
<splittist> I'm feeling generous - take 10 days.
<beach> Whew! Thanks!
<Shinmera> splittist: psh, without a web browser this'll never take off
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<vivit> Is there a way to express the initform of a slot in terms of other slots on the object?
<adlai> vivit, no, use an :after method to initialize-instance or shared-initialize
<adlai> clhs shared-initialize
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<vivit> Why do you need to specify the accesible slots when you call that function? Doesn't the class definition itself already have those?
<vivit> Or does this operate on a lower level of abstraction than the class definitions
<vivit> s/have/specify/
<Xach> vivit: it's optional
<Xach> vivit: if you specify the args, they are available as arguments, you can also work from the values in the instance already (in an :after)
<beach> vivit: There is no such thing as an "accessible slot". To refer to a slot, you need to have an existing object. The object does not exist when the initform is evaluated.
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<jcowan> What are the use cases for returning zero values? I mean, it's an obvious generalization of more ordinary multiple values, but when would it make sense?
<_death> you're not suppose to call this function yourself
<Xach> jcowan: some prefer it to returning nil to indicate "this function has no meaningful return value"
<Xach> or some other value
<Xach> "prefer it to nil or some other value" that is.
* jcowan nods.
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<jcowan> So the main application is in a context when you don't care what values are returned, then.
<Xach> jcowan: that's how i've seen it used.
<jcowan> Makes sense
<Bike> technically it could also be useful in multiple-value-call, but i've never actually seen that
<jcowan> I'm arguing against the position that in Lisp, a proper monad implementation should be extended from Haskell's one-arg-one-value functions to n-args-m-values. It makes little sense to pass zero values to the next element in a bind chain.
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<pjb> jcowan: one place you definitely want to return zero values, is in "commands". Ie. functions designed to be called on the REPL, as command, (they may ouput some text), but for which you don't want any result to be displayed to keep the REPL clean.
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<pjb> jcowan: other places, is when you don't want to leak an internal data. Since all expressions return some value, there's always a value returned by default from a function. Sometimes, you want to make sure that default value is not returned, so you add a (values) to return nothing.
<pjb> jcowan: note that for commands, if you use a function that returns a big data structure, it may take a lot of time and screen space to print it. This is often when you will take the pain to add the (values) call.
<Bike> really? i haven't done much haskell programming, but i thought with the semicolon syntax you could write values that weren't bound to anything
<jcowan> And yet definers seem to mostly return nil, and they are the very essence of nothing-useful-to-return
<jcowan> Bike: If you mean do-syntax, you can, but that all gets unpacked into calls on map and map-append
<Xach> defun returning its name has at least one nice use.
<Bike> well, sure, so analogously youo'd have chains of multiple value call i would think
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<jcowan> yes
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<jcowan> I am just not convinced that generalizing monads to multiple args/values (multiple values are the dual of multiple args, passing more than one value to the continuation) is really worth the headache
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<jcowan> It is shaky to call anything returning multiple values a function (in the math sense)
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<jcowan> s/shaky/sketchy
<pjb> jcowan: in CL most definiers return the name that has been defined.
<pjb> or the thing itself.
<pjb> (defvar *foo*) #| --> *foo* |# (defclass foo () ()) #| --> #<standard-class foo> |#
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<jcowan> sorry, brain fart; I was thinking about returning the name
<jcowan> In Scheme, definitions are not expressions, just syntactic sugar that can only be used at top level or at the start of a let (vel sim.) block.
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<Bike> well multiple values are really just a kind of implicit tuple type. the sketchy part is more the implicit coercion of one of those tuples to the primary value in almost all contexts
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<alandipert> along those lines, coercion of no values to nil sketches me out a bit
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<vivit> beach: the hyperspec uses the word "accessible"
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<Bike> vivit: update-instance-for-different-class calls shared-initialize with a slots list of only the new slots, so that slots already in the object are not reinitialized.
<Bike> vivit: and reinitialize-instance calls it with an empty slot list so that no slots are initialized from initforms
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<jcowan> The point is that, coercion or not (Scheme doesn't have it), it's possible to implement MVs without reification
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<aeth> One thing that is not really clear in the conversation (idk if you know it) but in CL, most MV-related things implicitly insert a NIL if there is no argument in the nth position and the nth position is requested. alandipert touched ont his with "coercion of no values to nil".
<aeth> MV-related things will also tend to drop the extra values, which is less problematic.
<aeth> I think only multiple-value-call and multiple-value-list don't have this implicit NILness to it.
<aeth> Of course, (values) is particularly noticable because e.g. (funcall (lambda (x) x) (values)) => NIL whereas (multiple-value-call (lambda (x) x) (values)) is an error.
<Bike> multiple value call is the only special operator, yes
<aeth> ((lambda (x) x) (values)) is also NIL, the funcall isn't necessary
<phoe> ((lambda (x) x) (values)) coerces (values) into a NIL and then calls the lambda on it
<phoe> that's per normal rules of evaluation
<phoe> M-V-C is a special form and therefore isn't affected by that
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<Bike> you can imagine having semantics where every call works like multiple-value-call. then you could have (defun primary-value (&optional value &rest rest) (declare (ignore rest)) value)
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<phoe> using gethash would be ugly
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<phoe> why doesn't the Lisp condition system allow signaling arbitrary Lisp objects? what was the rationale for that?
<phoe> is it that conditions are guaranteed to know how to report themselves?
<Bike> means you have a type to handle more specific than T
<Bike> and you can put arbitrary objects in condition slots, so it's no big
<jcowan> It doesn't?
<phoe> I'm aware it's no big; I was just curious
<phoe> the "type to handle more specific than T" is a good reason
<Bike> jcowan: SIGNAL is defined as having a designator for a condition as an argument, etc
<phoe> jcowan: you can't signal a 2
<jcowan> Ah, got it. I was misled by the term "datum" in the CLHS section for signal
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<jcowan> In Scheme exceptions and conditions are independent: you can raise any object, and you can use a condition for any purpose.
<dlowe> I have wondered why it's not that way in CL
<Bike> i don't know about scheme, but the lisp condition system can basically be defind in terms of the rest of the language, and usually is actually written that way. so why not make it specific to the task, i guess
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<jcowan> Are condition classes usually implemented as standard classes, or by separate machinery?
<dlowe> usually as standard classes but it's not portable to rely upon it
<dlowe> in CLtL2 they are always standard-classes but not in ANSI I think
<Bike> sbcl has a separate condition-class metaclass, i think
<Bike> yeah. and condition-class shares common superclasses with standard-class but is otherwise independent
<dlowe> all sorts of weird restrictions that don't point to anything substantial http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/e_cnd.htm
<dlowe> I suspect MacLisp or Interlisp just worked that way and we inherited them
<Bike> i don't know why sbcl has this separate hierarchy, though
<Bike> other implementations don't
<phoe> they want to have conditions as early in the build process as possible
<dlowe> what about cmucl?
<Bike> phoe: i mean, they're still standard-objects and everything, though.
<phoe> Bike: wait, conditions aren't standard-objects in sbcl or cmucl
<phoe> (typep (make-instance 'condition) 'standard-object) ;=> NIL
<phoe> AFAIK SBCL wants to have conditions early, before CLOS has booted - so they have this whole separate hierarchy for this reason alone
<phoe> and they boot it early, before CLOS had a chance to boot up
<Bike> oh, sorry, the classes are standard objects
<Bike> whoops
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<Bike> or, well, i'm confused now, arithmetic error has standard-object in its CPL but an actual arithemtic error object isn't a standard object
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<phoe> you mean the class?
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<phoe> (mapcar #'class-name (sb-pcl:class-precedence-list (find-class 'arithmetic-error)))
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<phoe> ;=> (ARITHMETIC-ERROR ERROR SERIOUS-CONDITION CONDITION SB-PCL::SLOT-OBJECT T)
<phoe> no standard-object there
<Bike> oh
<Bike> i was looking at the CPL of condition-class
<Bike> boy, i'm just confused today, sorry
<phoe> metaclasses we dive intoooo
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