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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Oladon>
I feel like I'm missing something... can I specialize a method on a typed array? I can do (typep foo (array (unsigned-byte 8))), but that doesn't seem to be a valid parameter specializer.
<Oladon>
(er, insert a quote into the above, of course)
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<beach>
Oladon: You can only specialize to classes, not general types.
<beach>
Oladon: There are several libraries that can do what you want though.
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<aeth>
It's going to be slower than a defgeneric/defmethod unless inline, though.
<aeth>
And it can online inline based on type declarations, not type inference.
<aeth>
s/online inline/only inline/
<aeth>
Oladon: and it is probably actually called (simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)) like e.g. (typep (make-array 2 :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)) '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*)))
<aeth>
That's incredibly verbose but there are shortcuts you can do, like using DEFTYPE to create your own short names, e.g. (deftype octet () `(unsigned-byte 8)) is pretty common
<beach>
Oladon: The system with classes was designed to be fast, it is going to be significantly slower to dispatch on arbitrary types. That might not be a problem for you of course. Just saying.
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<beach>
Am I understanding things right that the ELS presentations will be streamed, but that there is no audio nor video for the participants, including the presenters?
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<beach>
... so that Q&A will be through the associated "stream chat"?
<beach>
I am guessing that this "stream chat" will allow neither my usual spell checker, nor my abbrevs.
<beach>
That should be, er, amusing.
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<no-defun-allowed>
beach: You can access the twitch chat via IRC.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Although, that is a bit messy, and really designed for running bots.
<beach>
I'll just suffer without my usual tools.
<beach>
I can't help wondering why people do this to themselves, though.
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<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Can you confirm that I have understood the format?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think that is how twitch works, yes.
<beach>
OK, thanks!
<no-defun-allowed>
It is for the better for more popular streams with...people that have less need to be polite.
<beach>
As an alternative to what. I am not part of the set of "cool kids", so I am not following such things. Too busy with my projects I guess.
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<no-defun-allowed>
It's frequently used to stream games to a lot of viewers, and gamers are very noisy. Having some thousands of them screaming into microphones would be sickening for everyone involved.
<beach>
I see. Yes, I can very well imagine that.
<no-defun-allowed>
Or, I guess, the fundamental difference is that it is a one-to-many streaming system, unlike "conferencing" software which is many-to-many.
<beach>
Makes sense.
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<francogrex>
hi I am trying to sort this list (sort '((1 "spade") (2 "heart") (3 "spade") (4 "heart") (12 "heart") (6 "heart") (2 "spade")) #'string<= :key #'cadr)
<Bike>
sort can mutate the sequence, so you can't pass it a quoted list like that.
<francogrex>
i would like however to sort first on the cadr and then on the car, so that i have: ((1 "spade") (2 "spade") (3 "spade") (2 "heart") (4 "heart") (6 "heart") (12 "heart"))
<francogrex>
Bike: yes I know this is a sample, not the code that will be finally used, the issue is what I wrote next
<beach>
francogrex: Use stable-sort and sort first on the CAR then on the CADR.
<Bike>
or you could pass a lexicographic predicate.
<francogrex>
pjb: what i got from phoe next was exactly what I needed. thx
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<Oladon>
slyrus_: Around? Wondering if you'd mind sharing your bytea code for clsql.
<Josh_2>
How do I make a function available for a macro at compile time?
<Shinmera>
define it in a separate compilation unit (file), or wrap it in (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) ...) and put it before the first macro use.
<lieven>
and they don't do (let (var1 val1 var2 val2 ...) ....) because you can also not supply an initial binding so (let ((val1 t) (val2 42) val3 (val4 nil)) ...) is possible
<MerlinTheWizard>
ok
<_death>
hmm weird.. planet.lisp.org does not respect Update-Insecure-Requests (and no HSTS).. it's also not on the HTTPS Everywhere list, had to add a rule
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<MerlinTheWizard>
So is there a trick to learning the intricacies of common lisp syntax? Is it just 'keep going till you get it' or what?
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Maybe some exercises available online?
<luis>
MerlinTheWizard: books like Practical Common Lisp help!
<MerlinTheWizard>
luis, I'm reading that currently, feeling confused a lot...
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<MerlinTheWizard>
I'm sure I'll get it. I guess I just have to persevere.
<saturn2>
MerlinTheWizard: you could also use an editor that reminds you
<saturn2>
or type (describe 'let) in the repl
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<MerlinTheWizard>
saturn2, in my SLIME + SBCL in emacs (describe 'let) gives me this:
<MerlinTheWizard>
LET ({(var [value]) | var}*) declaration* form*
<MerlinTheWizard>
What do the curly braces mean? Does it just indicate an expression, or what?
<phoe>
they mean that you can use any number of what's inside
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<saturn2>
the curly braces indicate a section that can be repeated
<phoe>
or, in other words, that you can bind multiple variables in there
<phoe>
(let ((x 42) (y :forty-two) (z 42.0) ...) ...)
<MerlinTheWizard>
Oh, I see.
<MerlinTheWizard>
but I was under the impression that the '*' was what indicated possible repetition. Do the braces just group and then the '*' indicates repetition, or what?
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Oh, EBNF, I'll have to look at that.
<saturn2>
yes, the braces just group, sorry
<MerlinTheWizard>
Ok, good to know. Thanks.
<phoe>
actually the wiki page says that {...} is repetition
<MerlinTheWizard>
Really? What the heck is '*' then?
<phoe>
the star in there seems like a pleonasm
<phoe>
so it might be confusing
<MerlinTheWizard>
phoe, so it's not really using EBNF?
<MerlinTheWizard>
Can I set it to just give me EBNF somehow?
<phoe>
it clearly attempts to, but I have no idea if it's 100% successful in compliance
<saturn2>
EBNF is just a convention, CLHS and SBCL use a slightly different version from the standard one
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<saturn2>
or the usual one, rather
<saturn2>
since there's no real standard
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Ok, so it looks like they all just use their own alternative to EBNF, but I guess they don't define it.
<Bike>
well, practically speaking it's generally unambiguous for a human reader. like the LET page has a bunch of examples.
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Bike, I'm just not sure why someone would create a rigorous syntax and not fully describe it anywhere. So maybe it's not a rigorous, formal system at all?
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<MerlinTheWizard>
So like a pseudo-grammar or something?
<Bike>
it's not really that rigorous, no. the standard is intended for human readers and would not be suitable for formal use without a lot of work.
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Ok, well, I'll just do my best with what I've got then. Maybe I'll create my own hyperspec later once I get this stuff down.
<Bike>
feel free to ask more questions about confusing points.
<saturn2>
i suppose the main motivation for the difference is that usually EBNF uses parentheses for grouping, and that would be very inconvenient for describing lisp forms
<Bike>
tru
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Bike, thank you. I'm sure I will.
<MerlinTheWizard>
saturn2, I was just going to make a similar comment.
<Bike>
to be honest, i'd say the syntax is usually pretty simple. i mean, it is lisp. the confusing points there are declarations and lambda lists, and they both have specific pages explaining them.
<Bike>
other than that there are only fairly minor irregularities, like restart-case.
<buffergn0me>
LOOP is the worst offender.
<Bike>
oh. right. also loop.
<Bike>
i've gotten to the point i can usually figure anything out just by looking at the grammar, but that could just be stockholm syndrome
<MerlinTheWizard>
Bike, CL syntax is confusing because analogous functions can differ in how arguments are ordered.
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Bike, Stockholm syndrome, that's funny.
<Bike>
like elt and nth? are there other ones?
<Bike>
i mean, elt and nth is definitely bad, though.
<MerlinTheWizard>
I'm not sure, I'm a noob. But it's confusing to me so far and I still haven't got the syntax even halfway through PCL.
<MerlinTheWizard>
Frustrating, but I'll figure it out.
<selwyn>
aref and nth
<MerlinTheWizard>
PCL should have been written better. I'm going to follow up with 'On Lisp'.
<Josh_2>
wat
<Josh_2>
what is confusing about (<fun name> <args>) ?
<phoe>
On Lisp is actually an advanced book
<buffergn0me>
Same. If I don't have SLIME giving the function signature in the message area, I have to go look up the argument order half the time
<phoe>
Josh_2: please read the context
<Josh_2>
reeeee
<Bike>
function call syntax is easy, but macros and special operators are nontrivial.
<phoe>
it's not about (<fun name> <args>), it's about <args> in this case
<phoe>
and also what Bike said
<MerlinTheWizard>
phoe, 'On Lisp' was recommended by a reviewer on amazon as a second lisp book.
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<MerlinTheWizard>
Just looking at the table of contents, it looks very appropriate for me after PCL.
<phoe>
hm, it sounds okay - it pays a lot of attention to Lisp macros
<MerlinTheWizard>
Yes, I need about 100 pages of lisp macros...
<phoe>
Gentle has a very very slow pace that might be frustrating for someone who's already programmed a bit
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<saturn2>
it really should've been titled On Lisp Macros
<Josh_2>
Bike: It's a very good introduction to programming
<Josh_2>
Bike: it was my first programming book
<buffergn0me>
I read A Gentle Introduction last year, 15 years after starting programming and Common Lisp. Learned a couple of things.
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<selwyn>
is the style of 'on lisp' typical of common lisp of that era, or is it just trying to be scheme? i am thinking about the emphasis on recursion in particular
<Grue`>
I'm thinking of defining a function with "&optional (some-arg *)" so that I can run it on previous REPL value but I wonder if it will freak out the compiler in some contexts
<phoe>
nothing seems to explicitly require it
<Grue`>
it says the initial value is "implementation-dependent" but doesn't say it can be unbound
<phoe>
it says it's "maintained by the REPL", whatever it means
<phoe>
nonetheless, I wouldn't do that; the REPL variables are supposed to stay in the REPL, and typing an additional " *" in the repl to turn (foo ...) into (foo ... *) seems cleaner and not much more effort-expensive to me
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<Bike>
though the only way you're going to be outside a repl is something like --quit or in a different thread, in which case i don't know what (foo) would be expected to do anyway.
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<Shinmera>
I suppose stuff like --eval is also not necessarily 'in the repl'
<jmercouris>
how to prevent format from printing shortened version of long list?
<jmercouris>
you know how it does ... for very long things
<pjb>
jmercouris: the default setting of the *print-…* variables is IMPLEMENTATION DEPENDENT!
<pjb>
jmercouris: therefore you are advised to set them yourself in your rc files!
<jmercouris>
I see
<jmercouris>
thanks for the tips
<phoe>
or to create your own with-* macro that mimics with-standard-io-syntax, except it has your own values for print-related dynavars (and possibly for read-related ones too)
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<pjb>
Grue`: well, clhs * says that it has an initial-value that is implementation-dependent. I don't understand this to mean that it can be unbound.
<pjb>
Grue`: notably, after (values) * is specified to be bound to nil, not to be unbound.
<pjb>
Grue`: therefore I would think that it's conforming to expect it to be always bound.
<pjb>
Grue`: but this doesn't say anything about what it's value is when you're outside of the repl, or if it's the form to be evaluated in the repl.
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<jmercouris>
turns out I had set it in my rc file and that was causingp roblems in my program
<jmercouris>
so I let bound it to nil
<jmercouris>
don't remember why I had done that
<jmercouris>
probably didn't want masive lists printing in the REPL
<Bike>
yeah, i have that in my rc for that reason.
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<pjb>
yes, of course, the advice of setting them in your rc files implies that you REMEMBER that you've set them and to what values…
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<jmercouris>
I know allegro and lisp works both have prolog extensions
<jmercouris>
anyone have experience with them? what can one do more easily with an expert system in lisp?
<jmercouris>
i’m looking for some inspiration
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<Bike>
i know sjl's prolog was for game AI. not really an expert system, i guess
<jmercouris>
maybe one could recreate clippy in prolog
<jmercouris>
or bonzai buddy lol
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<kpgiskpg>
Any suggestion for dealing with nickname conflicts between dependencies?
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<phoe>
kpgiskpg: RENAME-PACKAGE is working but ugly
<phoe>
do you mean dependencies as in quicklisp systems?
<Shinmera>
kpgiskpg: get the maintainers to change the names.
<kpgiskpg>
Dependencies I've defined in my asdf file. When I try to load my package in slime, it errors out saying "Q is already a nickname for RTG-MATH.QUATERNIONS".
<phoe>
kpgiskpg: ooh, so you control all the packages?
<phoe>
if so, use package-local nicknames instead of standard nicknames
<kpgiskpg>
Nope, I'm depending on 'cl-threadpool', which depends on 'queues'.
<phoe>
PLNs are still a choice then
<phoe>
AFAIR they're capable of shadowing standard nicknames
<kpgiskpg>
That still applies if all of the nicknames are defined in my dependencies?
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<phoe>
you'll want to drop the global Q nickname from your package and instead locally nickname that package in the package that uses it
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<kpgiskpg>
Wow, that is indeed ugly. I'll give it a shot, thanks.
<phoe>
nah, it's the cleaner option
<phoe>
mutating global state via RENAME-PACKAGE is the uglier option
<phoe>
(defpackage foo (:use :cl) (:local-nicknames (:a :alexandria))) and suddenly I can do a:assoc-value
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<kpgiskpg>
Do you have an example to hand of how add-package-local-nickname and remove-package-local-nickname would be incorporated into an asdf file?
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