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<dlowe>
yeah, it's non-conforming
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<aeth>
Maybe bring it up in #sbcl
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<holycow>
hi all. i am trying to install weblocks-skeleton from here
<holycow>
why i run lake migrate . i get the following error: Symbol "SYSTEM-VERSION" not found in the ASDF/INTERFACE package
<holycow>
i suspect there is a conflict with asdf and roswell that i create at some point.
<holycow>
can anyone point to resources online that i can read about HOW roswell and asdf work / interact with each other or the host environment?
<holycow>
i cannot find a 10 000 foot perspective on either system via google
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<ahungry>
Are you familiar with nodejs/npm at all? asdf (another system definition facility) is a way to define packages, similar to package.json in node land. Quicklisp which you didn't mention is like npm - the tool to pull in remote dependencies for asdf to load. Roswell is closest to nvm I think (node version manager) - it wraps up all the lisp stuff into a ~/.roswell directory
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<alandipert>
hi beach
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<holycow>
thanks ahungry
<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe offtopic, but what's the best practice if I want to store upwards of 10,000 binary files (addressed by hash of contents)? Filesystems usually don't perform as well as usual when you use directories with that many tiles.
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<holycow>
10k files in a folder shoudln't be a problem for ext4
<holycow>
maybe millions of files and then you start to see performance degredation
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
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<holycow>
oh, upwards of ...
<holycow>
sorry i misread
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'm thinking around 10^4 to 10^6 files.
<holycow>
well, i have run email servers with more files than that but they have all subdivided the attachments into subdirs
<holycow>
i don't know if i have ever had a single folder with that many files
<holycow>
i am just waisting your time, my apologies. i don't have any useful information for you. i just misread your original question and was curious.
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<no-defun-allowed>
You're not wasting my time; I don't even have useless information to work with.
<no-defun-allowed>
...or can I manipulate binary data from CLSQL somehow?
<holycow>
well, you know, even the base linux system has thousands if not millions of files
<buffergn0me>
no-defun-allowed: You can organize the files into sub-directories named after one or more digits in the hash. Should be pretty uniform.
<holycow>
my home nas machines have hundreds of million
<no-defun-allowed>
buffergn0me: Sure.
<holycow>
none of them seem to suffer in any way because they are all in subdirs
<holycow>
i would say it does kind of depend on how big your files are and what kind of post processing you need to do. large files will force you into the obvious answer, how many small files will give you some room to play with
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<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: while 2^20 files ain't that many, having them in a single directory is a bad idea - lookup performance and all that stuff.
<no-defun-allowed>
flip214: Yeah, that's my concern.
<flip214>
I'd suggest keeping 3 or 4 levels of 8-bit divisions, that should bring the last level down to a good number.
<no-defun-allowed>
(And, well, that SQL can be run over a network trivially, whereas a filesystem is a little less portable.)
<flip214>
which filesystem are you using?
<no-defun-allowed>
Right.
<no-defun-allowed>
btrfs, but I would expect a client to use ext4 if they use a Linux system.
<holycow>
oooooohhhhh
<holycow>
dude
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: btrfs should be fine (IMO)
<holycow>
did you read up on btrfs on forums?
<holycow>
let me find a lnk
<flip214>
which kernel version?
<no-defun-allowed>
I can't remember, I formatted /home about five years ago.
<no-defun-allowed>
No, it hasn't eaten my data.
<holycow>
oh it will
<no-defun-allowed>
And it hasn't for the last five years?
<holycow>
there is an arch page somewhere with red sections all over warning about bugs and features that don't work properly
<no-defun-allowed>
...one of them. 5.3...ish?
<holycow>
just trying to find the link for you to read, i can't remember where i foudn it
<no-defun-allowed>
The btrfs status page says everything I do is stable.
<holycow>
zfs is stable
<holycow>
btrfs shouldn't even be considered a file system
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: I guess something recent will be good enough. I've had a few problems in the 4.<low digit> aera, but none since then.
<holycow>
anyway my opinion is not important :) looking for something for you to review
<no-defun-allowed>
I do lament fallocate, but my experience with btrfs is that's a load of shite and it's been rock solid.
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<andrzejku>
hejo
<no-defun-allowed>
holycow: And I did read that page five years ago and did an analysis. Still sounds quite stable.
<holycow>
oh, aha!
<holycow>
okay then :)
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't use some of the advanced features like checkpointing or RAID; but is even more off topic.
<holycow>
i used to replicate datacenters geographically using zfs. i can't go back to anything less and reading that btrfs arch writeup scared teh crap out of me. i could never use anything like that.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Offsite backups are probably excessive for my /home filesystem.
<holycow>
looks like synology and suse use btrfs
<holycow>
huh
<holycow>
i could never ever use a file system where i've read users loowing entire datasets using simple file system management tools
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<holycow>
yeah, no, you are actually correct. you have to match the solution to your needs and risk comfort level
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<beach>
Hello andrzejku.
<beach>
andrzejku: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
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<flip214>
COMPILE returns a second and third value for warnings and errors; can I get the conditions that are signalled directly? Something like *debugger-hook*?
<flip214>
ah, HANDLER-CASE does the trick
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<andrzejku>
beach, yes
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<beach>
andrzejku: Great! What brings you to #lisp?
<andrzejku>
beach, emm good question, Lisp is in my learning plans
<andrzejku>
or lets say guile I wanted to join guile more
<beach>
Ouch. This group is dedicated to Common Lisp. Sorry!
<andrzejku>
yes, I know
<andrzejku>
had mistaken
<beach>
I think if you learn Common Lisp, you can apply that knowledge to Guile.
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<phoe>
the lisp dialects are similar in the beginning, though guile is a scheme and therefore much more functional-programming-oriented
<phoe>
whereas CL is multi-paradigm
<phoe>
once you know the basics of e.g. how S-expressions work, the evaluation model, lexical environments and lambdas, however, you'll be able to apply to any Lisp dialect with none or few modifications
<beach>
phoe: andrzejku left.
<beach>
phoe: Also, be careful with that kind of information. As I recall, some of the first Scheme standards did not define its operators in terms of the result of READ, but instead as surface syntax, much like other languages. So then (x . (y)) was not equal to (x y).
<beach>
Perhaps that makes Scheme different language altogether, and not a dialect of Lisp, which as we know, is not a well defined term.
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<phoe>
beach: you scared me for a second and I checked on all the scheme dialects I have installed on my machine whether defining stuff with cons notation was working
<aeth>
Scheme just has a lot of undefined behavior, like... the evaluation order. Put side effects in (+ a b c) using begin (their PROGN) and you don't know what order the printing will happen.
<aeth>
But the worst part is a lot of Schemes just return #<unspecified> or #<undefined> in such cases, e.g. (if #f 42)
<aeth>
It's IMO way more reliable that CL returns NIL with (if nil 42) even if that's still bad style.
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<aeth>
What I like about everything being an expression in CL is that you don't really get entirely useless things unless someone goes out of their way to return (values)
<Shinmera>
I've come to really, really appreciate the methodology of always returning /something/ even if an operation is for side effects.
<phoe>
aeth: and (values) naturally turn into NIL if someone tries to use them anywhere except for multiple-value-* calls
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<aeth>
just multiple-value-call or multiple-value-list iirc. Well, I mean, the latter gives you NIL, but you'd expect (NIL)
<andrzejku>
beach, thnks for advice
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<aeth>
For the most part, Scheme is basically just what you get if you wrap CL up in continuation passing style, though. This, of course, has quite a few implications.
<beach>
phoe: They may have changed it in later standards.
<beach>
andrzejku: Sure.
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<beach>
andrzejku: I believe that's the one written by jmercouris.
<beach>
andrzejku: And I also think it is mostly a Common Lisp wrapper around something called "webkit" or something like that.
<andrzejku>
beach, I wonder which UI framework is used here
<andrzejku>
ahh thats for sure
<andrzejku>
but which one
<beach>
Sorry, don't know. You had better ask jmercouris.
<no-defun-allowed>
I believe it uses Gtk and the Webkit browser engine.
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<andrzejku>
by the way where Lisp is mostly used in web?
<no-defun-allowed>
Servers?
<beach>
andrzejku: Are you asking where Lisp is mostly use, and if that happens to be for web stuff?
<beach>
I don't think you will find a niche use for it like that.
<andrzejku>
beach, yup
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<andrzejku>
beach, ok I get it
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<aeth>
Professionally? Probably still AI (but much less important relative to the industry than in 1990) with a bit of web. Hobbyist? The largest niche community is probably gamedev.
<aeth>
Few actually publish their games, but many attempt to make them. :-)
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't think Lisp is one of those languages which is assigned a particular domain (unless you think of Lisp-the-paper Lisp, which is pretty much another mode of computation that is kind of lambda calculus but not really lambda calculus).
<aeth>
Few languages have one specific niche and no other niche. Few languages aren't used in web programming, too.
<no-defun-allowed>
JavaScript for the former?
<aeth>
It's one of those things you could find in any new language, just look for the microwebframework that's in the style of Python's Flask or (iirc) Ruby's Sinatra
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<no-defun-allowed>
At this rate I've jinksed myself though.
<aeth>
no-defun-allowed: nah, I'm sure someone is trying to write an OS in JavaScript
<beach>
Please don't assume Lisp is only useful for Animation and Graphics, AI, Bioinformatics, B2B and E-Commerce, Data Mining, EDA/Semiconductor applications, Expert Systems, Finance, Intelligent Agents, Knowledge Management, Mechanical CAD, Modeling and Simulation, Natural Language, Optimization, Research, Risk Analysis, Scheduling, Telecom, and Web Authoring just because these are the only things they happened to list. - Kent Pitman
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<jcowan>
No Scheme standard was ever defined in terms of surface syntax; I've read them all and can say that definitively.
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<jcowan>
AFAIK the only standard that ever was defined that way was DIN Lisp 1.2 (neither Scheme nor CL), and it was one of the points Henry Baker raised in his critique (which is still very interesting).
<jcowan>
In addition, Guile is as multi-paradigm as CL, if by that you mean it has good support for OO.
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<heisig>
jcowan: You mean GOOPS? It is far from being as useful, fast, and extensible as CLOS.
<heisig>
At least last time I checked.
<jcowan>
Less extensible, certainly. Useful is a matter of what you want to use it for, and what you expect. Fast, well, I'm sure it's possibly to implement CLOS to run slowly, even in these Latter Days of the Law.
<heisig>
Heh, yes it is definitely possible to implement CLOS to run slowly.
<heisig>
One can even slow down existing implementations by orders of magnitude, just by adding a single innocent method at the wrong place :)
<_death>
we need bp7patch for CL
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<francogrex>
Hi I want to compile a C code (or assembly code) but don't want to install gcc or any other C compiler. is there a lib in CL that lets me compile to an object file? it's won't be lisp code it's C or simply just machine code? does cffi allow?
<no-defun-allowed>
Er, you want a C compiler that emits C or assembler?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I may be able to cook up a C compiler that emits C. Just a moment...
<francogrex>
no-defun-allowed: actually that compiles to object file!
<no-defun-allowed>
(defun compile-c-program (input-source output-object) (with-open-file (input input-source) (with-open-file (output output-object) (loop for line = (read-line input nil nil) until (null line) do (write-line line output)))))
<beach>
francogrex: I have thought for a very long time that C compilers should be written in Common Lisp, as opposed to in C or C++. But I don't think anyone has done it yet.
<beach>
I was totally amazed when I saw that RMS had written GCC in C.
<beach>
But I guess he didn't have a reasonable Lisp system at the time.
<francogrex>
beach: yes i wish that would have been the case
<francogrex>
no-defun-allowed: Vacietis yes that seems ok though limited but appears to be in the spirit
<beach>
By the way, didn't GCC end up using the Boehm-Weiser GC after many years of attempting to avoid automatic memory management?
<jackdaniel>
it did
<jackdaniel>
internally
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: vacietis is very restricted.
<beach>
jackdaniel: So I didn't dream that. Thanks.
<jackdaniel>
also genera gad c compiler written in lisp
<jackdaniel>
some indefined behaviors are a result of lobbying by lisp vendors
<jackdaniel>
that i.e pointer doesn't have to be a number or something
<jackdaniel>
I don't remember
<jackdaniel>
had*
<jackdaniel>
undefuned* phone curse
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<francogrex>
yes indeed vacitis is a good proof of concept but very poor to produce anything of use
<jackdaniel>
it does naive parsing
<jackdaniel>
you may check the esrap parser for C on one of scymtym's repositories
<jackdaniel>
with the preprocessor and stuff
<jackdaniel>
it is a conforming piece implemenyed according to the newest C standard
<jackdaniel>
implemented*
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<beach>
I vaguely remember reading some exchange about that. Very exciting.
<beach>
What are the plans in terms of what to use it for?
<jackdaniel>
I've started the gramma to have a conforming repl for C language in ECL :)
<jackdaniel>
as of scymtym , you have to ask him
<beach>
Wow!
<francogrex>
but how about sbcl or any lisp used just as an assembler? from handwritten asm code to object code... that in theory should be easy maybe exists already?
<beach>
You can probably grab the assembler from any of the major Common Lisp implementations, like SBCL, or CCL, and probably also Mezzano.
<heisig>
francogrex: You can use SBCL as an assembler via sb-c:define-vop.
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<heisig>
I know of programmers that wrap handcrafted assembler snippets in SBCL VOPs for the very performance critical parts of their code.
<francogrex>
heisig: hmm yes i know vops and i know how to use them, but not interested in that. I would like to output an .o object file. vop doesn't do that not made for it
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<francogrex>
I have a feeling CFFI might be able to do that i mean if one has the opcodes how dfficult would it be to compile them to an object file?
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<heisig>
Yes, one could do that, too. But in 90% of the cases you can get the very same assembler code just by compiling Lisp with the right declarations.
<heisig>
And I'm trying to boost that to 95% of the cases by writing a proper SIMD interface for SBCL.
<beach>
francogrex: The hard part, at least for x86 is to select a machine instruction, given a source instruction, and also generating the bytes for that selected machine instruction.
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<nwoob>
If someone makes an api that gives dynami response in structure and to parse that structure can metaprogramming be helpful?
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<beach>
nwoob: I don't even know what that means.
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<beach>
What is "dynami response in structure"?
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<nwoob>
what if there is a project that build websites from a documentation that user can edit? Given that we have templates of design... The documentation data will be parsed and will become response of API or APIs
<nwoob>
so here response of API will be dynamic depending on the data provided by user
<nwoob>
beach:
<nwoob>
"dynamic" I mistyped in my first message
<beach>
That sounds like ordinary programming.
<beach>
The distinction is blurred of course.
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