p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
<ahungry> mornin
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<McParen> hello, does somebody have experience with cffi-groveler? i am considering including the groveler to substitute a hard-coded set of constants in my ncurses library, and I cannot assess how risky it is to have a groveling step when the library is built.
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<Shinmera> Well it needs a C compiler.
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<heisig> McParen: I use the groveler for cl-mpi (https://github.com/marcoheisig/cl-mpi), if you need some inspiration.
<heisig> I haven't had any issues so far.
<McParen> did your users have any problems when the library is built?
<McParen> the cl-test-grid often reports problems (or so i udnerstand it) with the groveler: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/cl-mpi.html
<heisig> Oh, but that is because cl-mpi requires a particular C compiler (mpicc). If are happy with the default, or with something widely used like gcc, there shouldn't be any problems.
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<McParen> it is not only cl-mpi, other projects i checked also show problems on cl-test-grid: https://common-lisp.net/project/cl-test-grid/library/cl-charms.html
<heisig> Is there a reason why cl-test-grid only tests sbcl-1.3.2 on arm, or does it only show test failures?
<McParen> this varies from month to month, i think that depends on who contributes the test cases.
<McParen> no, it usually includes successful runs too.
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<McParen> I only need a few integer constants, so I dont know whether it is less problematic to simply hardcode them or to add a dependence to a C compiler, include files, etc.
<heisig> No, don't hardcode constants. C is not dynamically typed, so you can get some very bizarre bugs that way.
<heisig> Asking the C compiler is the right way. Or, you could rewrite all the C dependencies in Lisp :)
<McParen> the dependence in question is libc, locale.h
<edgar-rft> AFAIK a constant that can change isn't a constant
<McParen> it is the #define LC_ALL
<McParen> I do not know how often the integers behind the defines are changed or whether they are equal between different systems
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<heisig> Fun fact: A C constant is not even a Lisp constant, because the Lisp process might live longer than the version of the C library in use.
<heisig> This can actually happen if you reload dynamic libraries after resuming from save-lisp-and-die.
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* heisig should have written 'Lisp image' instead of 'Lisp process'
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<Shinmera> heisig: so what you're saying is that grovelling is also wrong
<aeth> heisig: I assume that C type sizes won't change, although of course, that's only an assumption
<edgar-rft> let's start assumption-based programming
<Shinmera> edgar-rft: that's what everyone's already doing
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<McParen> Shinmera: does any of your systems have cffi-grovel as a dependence? if yes, did it cause problems for users?
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<Shinmera> No. I avoid the groveller because of the C compiler dependency.
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<edgar-rft> I already wrongly assumed that a constant is constant
<Shinmera> I hard-code constants per platform and have not had issues because of that so far.
<McParen> okay, thanks.
<aeth> edgar-rft: I assume that the language I'm using is constant, which works for CL so far
<Shinmera> Well, not just the C compiler dependency, but also the dependency on the library being installed (with header files to boot)
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<aeth> oone of these days someone's going to remove the deprecated functions like remove-if-not, though
<aeth> s/oone/one/
<edgar-rft> LC_ALL = Lisp
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<heisig> Shinmera: I think you can re-grovel, if you really care about the life of your Lisp image. But nowadays, I just try to avoid C dependencies.
<heisig> aeth: Nobody is ever going to remove remove-if-not.
<Shinmera> heisig: re-grovel on a target machine?
<Shinmera> fat chance of that!
<heisig> Only if your goal is to deploy long-lasting images. If you just want to obtain an executable, feel free to forget about this issue.
<heisig> I'm just mentioning this here because it already bit me once.
<heisig> You can only have one active MPI implementation at a time. But for testing, it is nice if you can change the implementation while your REPL stays alive.
<aeth> heisig: they could remove remove-if-not via (remove-if-not (complement #'deprecatedp) functions)
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<heisig> Nah. Should there ever be people with enough influence to release a new CL standard, they will also have enough wisdom not to change the CL package.
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<aeth> it was a joke
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<heisig> There are things one shouldn't joke about :)
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<vms14> (defpackage :game (:use :common-lisp :xlib))
<vms14> Undefined function :USE called with arguments
<vms14> what's wrong? I'm using ccl
<vms14> isn't part of the standard? I see it in clhs
<_death> you're likely evaluating it in a package where defpackage is not cl:defpackage
<vms14> hmm, thanks
<vms14> Using #<Package "COMMON-LISP"> in #<Package "GAME"> would cause name conflicts with symbols already present in that package:DEFPACKAGE COMMON-LISP:DEFPACKAGE meh
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<vms14> how should I use defpackage in a way it will work in all implementations without troubles? in sbcl I saw no problem
<_death> it's unlikely that your issue is due to difference in implementations
<vms14> it's weird, if I put ccl --load game.lisp I see no warnings, but with slime I get a restart
<vms14> yeah, the real reason is I'm too noob xD
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<_death> packages are stateful, so you may get yourself into a "weird" state.. if you're not sure about the current state, one way is to restart your lisp and try again
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<_death> you can also explicitly qualify symbols to help in figuring out the state, e.g., using cl:*package* to determine the current package
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<_death> or (cl:describe 'defpackage) to see information about the defpackage symbol in the current package
<vms14> I've used make-package
<vms14> I see no warnings this way
<vms14> (make-package :game :use '(:common-lisp :xlib))
<_death> programming by magic
<vms14> which I don't understand
<vms14> why defpackage gives me errors, and I even have to put the package name like cl:defpackage
<vms14> and make-package just works
<vms14> but meh
<_death> if you "meh" you'll remain a noob
<vms14> I thought defpackage was a fancy way to use make-package
<vms14> and I always used defpackage in sbcl, never had a problem
<vms14> until now using ccl
<_death> so, figure out what the issue with your use of defpackage is
<vms14> the issue is defpackage tells me there is a shadowing problem with the 'defpackage symbol once I :use :common-lisp
<vms14> but make-package does not
<_death> figure out the cause of this
<vms14> wtf, in the repl there is no trouble now
<vms14> (defpackage :meh (:use :common-lisp))
<vms14> restarted slime and I cannot reproduce the error, so I don't know what was happening
<_death> transient issues like getting into a "weird state" during development are ok to ignore, but for your written code you should understand 100% why something works or not
<vms14> it's weird, because the only thing I've done was to quickload clx and defpackage then
<vms14> and I've copypasted the same sexp that gave me the error
<vms14> but, I'll ignore that unless it happens again, maybe I did something without knowing
<vms14> thanks anyway _death for trying to help
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<theosvoitha> Hello. Am just curious. What is lisp still used for? I somehow like it. am learning programming for data science.
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<no-defun-allowed> "Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use Lisp (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language." — Lisp Pointers, 198something
<no-defun-allowed> A few things. Some that spring to mind include programs that give advice to traders, and the (in my opinion) best quantum computer compiler and simulator.
<heisig> theosvoitha: I think there isn't a single domain where Lisp hasn't been used successfully. See https://lisp-lang.org/success/ for a few examples.
<theosvoitha> heisig: checking. thanks. as i said i somehow like simplicity.
<no-defun-allowed> There's also some game developers using Lisp, high performance computing people, Internet server making people, and generally it's usable for anything.
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<theosvoitha> i read it . interesting.
<theosvoitha> is this `https://lisp-lang.org/` the official Lisp website?
<theosvoitha> because i can't find the official website in wiki.
<theosvoitha> also i found that Emacs Lisp is a dialect of the Lisp programming language used as a scripting language by Emacs
<beach> theosvoitha: What would be an "official website" for Common Lisp? Nobody owns it.
<theosvoitha> beach: No i mean where can i download or learn ?
<beach> theosvoitha: This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp. It has an ANSI standard, and multiple implementations.
<beach> theosvoitha: Each implementation is independent. Common Lisp is not a single-implementation language.
<beach> theosvoitha: Currently, the best suggestion for a newbie bundle seems to be Portacle.
<theosvoitha> beach: Still something i may follow to learn. where should i start from?
<beach> minion: Please tell theosvoitha about PCL.
<minion> theosvoitha: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
<beach> theosvoitha: Also, there is #clschool for question about basic Common Lisp.
<beach> clhs 1
<theosvoitha> thanks no-defun-allowed ! heisig
<beach> theosvoitha: That's as close to the official standards document as you can get.
<theosvoitha> also thanks beach minion
<theosvoitha> beach: which one the gigamonkey OR lispworks??
<beach> theosvoitha: The Lispworks document is the standard. It is not a pedagogical document. It is the definition of the language.
<beach> theosvoitha: PCL is a book, written in order for people to learn from.
<theosvoitha> beach: thanks i appreciate. i bookmarked both of them. really appreciate !!
<beach> Good luck.
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<theosvoitha> i will be idling here and at #clschool if it's allowed.
<beach> Absolutely.
<theosvoitha> thanks beach ! have a nice day !
<beach> Thanks.
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<vms14> theosvoitha: for prototyping is one of the best languages
<vms14> also for building complex software and trying new things
<vms14> specially with macros, creating dsl is very easy, which really helps at creating big and complex software
<vms14> for building your own stuff, it's a very nice language to have in hand
<vms14> and with slime you get instant feedback of everything you write
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<vms14> this is very important, since there is no compile cycle nor even save-file/call-interpreter
<vms14> you just write something and execute it, so you know if does what you wanted
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<edgar-rft> theosvoitha: in case nobody has already mentioned it before, there is a Common Lisp Wiki with lots of useful information -> https://www.cliki.net/Getting%20Started
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<eta> is there a version of MACROLET that works like LABELS, i.e. you can reference variables in the lexical environment?
<LdBeth> you can always reference lexical variables in macro
<LdBeth> although they are not guaranteed to be lexical
<eta> LdBeth, CLHS seems to say doing so is undefined behaviour
<eta> > Declarations and macrolet and symbol-macrolet definitions affect the local macro definitions in a macrolet, but the consequences are undefined if the local macro definitions reference any local variable or function bindings that are visible in that lexical environment.
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* eta wonders if they can get away with it anyway
<LdBeth> but regular macro still works
<pjb> eta: you should clarify what you want to do.
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<pjb> eta: notably, macros are expanded at compilation time, while lexical bindings are established at run-time. Like, in a 100 years, on a different computer (probably an emulator then).
<eta> pjb, I want to write (let ((a 1)) (macrolet ((do-thing-with-a (b) `(+ ,a ,b))) (do-thing-with-a 2)))
<eta> i.e. I'm referencing the lexical variable 'a' inside my macrolet
<pjb> Yes, this is not possible with LET.
<eta> pjb, so I have to use SYMBOL-MACROLET or EVAL?
<pjb> eta: if you want to have variables that you can mutate in the macro (at macroexpansion time/compilation time) and then access it (or not) at run-time, you will need to write your own MACRO-LET macro.
<eta> pjb, I don't want to mutate them
<eta> pjb, could I perhaps change ,a to a and have it still work?
<pjb> Then symbol-macrolet can be a good solution.
<pjb> (symbol-macrolet ((a 1)) (macrolet ((do-thing-with-a (b) `(+ ,a ,b))) (do-thing-with-a 2))) #| --> 3 |# seems conforming to me.
<pjb> eta: if you changed ,a to a it would indeed work with let, since a would be referenced a run-time then.
<eta> oh okay
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<eta> pjb, I hadn't seen that SYMBOL-MACROLET trick before (nice!), but I'll just go with a instead of ,a for this case :)
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<pjb> eta: just keep in mind of WHEN different expressions are evaluated. (macroexpansion time, compilation time, load time, run-time, when evaluated by a call to EVAL, when read (reader macros, #.) etc).
<eta> pjb, that helps me understand it, thanks!
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<jcowan> My sense is that a construct for defining recursive local macros is not sufficiently useful.
<jcowan> Indeed, I think it may be unnecessary, given that the result of a macro procedure is itself expanded again.
<jcowan> So it would only come up if you want macro A and B, declared in the same scope, to invoke one another in their bodies
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<Bike> sounds exciting.
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<_death> https://i.imgur.com/WTukenP.png <- deepspeech still has a way to go
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