<wolfspraul>
Sebastien mentioned something yesterday that I wanted to reiterate and explain before you go to the layout house (plab)
<cladamw>
good morning
<wolfspraul>
he said "when you have the first R4 boards, send me one right away so I can verify whether we can still clock sdram at 166mhz"
<wolfspraul>
we are making many (good) changes and improvements in R4
<wolfspraul>
but we also need to be careful about regressions
<wolfspraul>
and memory performance is maybe one of the highest most important things on the board
<wolfspraul>
so when you go to layout, keep an eye on this and try to extract as much as possible knowledge from them on how we can keep sdram performance up
<wolfspraul>
we rather sacrifice some of the other improvements than taking a hit on sdram performance
<wolfspraul>
of course ideally we want all :-) new features and still the highest sdram performance we can achieve
<wolfspraul>
does this make sense?
<cladamw>
make sense, there's no else bigger changes than keeping sdram performance.
<cladamw>
so i'll always ask house and keep my eye to see the placement/route works
<wolfspraul>
yes, and try to get advice from them
<wolfspraul>
we need to learn learn learn
<cladamw>
of sourse we make use of extra un-used pins which may/or already impact the performance in sdram, so far we don't know if it will. but IF house tell me the truth existed from thier experiences before, then I take their experiences rather than our expected changes, and feedback irc /or list to know.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
we want both
<wolfspraul>
we want our changes and the best possible sdram performance ;-)
<wolfspraul>
but sdram performance is indeed very important
<wolfspraul>
that's what Sebastien reminded me of and of course I think we all agree
<wolfspraul>
and yes, from the first R4 mini-run (maybe 8?), one board goes to Sebastien right away to verify just that...
<wolfspraul>
but before that we have to keep an eye on it, I am hoping the layout house can give us good advice
<wpwrak>
did we get any feedback from the layout house for M1rc3 ?
<cladamw>
wpwrak, what did you mean ? What expected info you point ?
<wpwrak>
cladamw: no expectation. i'm just curious if they said anything and if yes, what.
<cladamw>
i need to edit subtitle for this R4 criteria later
<wolfspraul>
I think they say a lot of things
<wolfspraul>
maybe Adam can edit the wiki with some of what they say
<wpwrak>
good. so they communicate :)
<wolfspraul>
layout is one of those areas where we still by and large stay away, so there is very little discussion about layout preferences, criteria, etc.
<wolfspraul>
oh of course
<wolfspraul>
it's a small company (haven't been there though)
<wolfspraul>
then Adam also goes there to sit down with them and go through the layout, for hours
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: correct?
<wolfspraul>
if needed, multiple times
<wpwrak>
good. there are often design details you don't see in the schematics.
<cladamw>
the problem is may be my cooperated attitude does still not get used to 'record' everything details in whatever any words they told to me. So probably it's my problem not house for all previous histories.
<wolfspraul>
yes but relax
<wolfspraul>
it is extremely hard to take notes of this kind of verbal sit-down co-work situation
<wolfspraul>
there's just too much back and forth
<wpwrak>
yeah. i just want to get a feeling for how that communication works. what we have to prepare, what to expect, etc.
<wolfspraul>
Adam starts with a wiki page, like the one he pointed to
<wolfspraul>
but then it gets messy
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
also when he's at their office, not sure whether he has the internet connection and time/chance to update the wiki right there
<wolfspraul>
at least so far that probably did not happen
<cladamw>
the behaviours among like KiCad or close Cad work, the differences may cause such unexpected results, but I'll always try to get inquires from 'experiences' which most Chinese guys are still not very feel free to share though. But this time I'll try. ;-)
<wpwrak>
he should go there, sit in an isolated room, and communicate with them only via IRC. then we could log the conversation ;-)
<wolfspraul>
then he comes home at night, with dozens of details being discussed, and it's hard to update the wiki
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: you don't need to tell them anything about free or share
<wolfspraul>
maybe you can update the wiki page live when you go there?
<wolfspraul>
that might be easier, if it's possible technically
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, the most problem is that I'm not sitting always besides layout guys. when I went to their office, my work is that:
<wolfspraul>
how big is that company?
<cladamw>
1. tell them my request on each part/circuit/footprint
<cladamw>
5 person to handle ODM/OEM job, but only one guy she can route, and when in meeting, I meet their PM/route guy. only three, included me.
<wolfspraul>
ahh. so much we can learn from them :-) They must be doing tons and tons of layout, and know a lot of little helpful tricks :-)
<cladamw>
2. step by step goes through each item/list I concerning, and tell my work priority. meanwhile discuss with them.
<cladamw>
so I can make notes while discussing.
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, oha..yeah..sure they bet!
<cladamw>
problem is on me to digs the treasure among them.
<cladamw>
and skills on 'record' & make 'notes' .;-)
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
that is very difficult, I know exactly because I tried a lot, sometimes successful, sometimes so-so, sometimes failed
<wolfspraul>
at some point you get carried away in the discussion, and all sorts of things are being discussed back and forth, and it becomes impossible to record from memory later
<wolfspraul>
and if you put a dictation device (recorder) there, you have 2 problems: 1) they may feel bad, and no free discussion will ever start 2) editing the recording is a tedious job that will require many hours of work
<cladamw>
just make a subtitle, if you think out some thing else, don't hesitate to add them in. I'll sum up surely after we finish M1R4 list review.
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, you are very right on analysis on how they/vendor feel the cooperation with us. always be the challenge.
<wolfspraul>
oh you cannot put a recorder there
<wolfspraul>
I wouldn't like that either
<cladamw>
if they are not busy, it's always okay. if not, things go worse, but if they busy, I used to not push them , and make another appoinement to meet them.
<cladamw>
yeah
<wolfspraul>
a secret recording may work, it's not nice though (using your notebook mic or so)
<wolfspraul>
but even then you have tons of work editing all that - don't do it
<wolfspraul>
just take classical notes, then edit wiki
<wolfspraul>
and sure, we are a tiny customer
<wolfspraul>
so what
<wolfspraul>
it's like say you hire a lawyer, for some small legal trouble you have with your landlord (better not ;-))
<wolfspraul>
the lawyer may have giant clients that give him work all the time
<wolfspraul>
and those clients will have preference, always
<wolfspraul>
that's ok
<wolfspraul>
but at the same time the lawyer will (should) do a proper job even for his small one-off clients
<wolfspraul>
and so will the layout house
<wolfspraul>
just no stress on this
<wolfspraul>
if they have to push us back, reschedule an appointment, etc. all fine.
<wolfspraul>
if we would be a big customer, we would demand them to do that to their small customers as well, to give us priority :-)
<wolfspraul>
I would, I admit.
<cladamw>
oh...indeed a nice balance/reasonable thinkning.
<cladamw>
that's the thing how it goes. well...just always to probe/check them out. ;-)
<wolfspraul>
yes. I practice this every day in China, as you can imagine.
<wolfspraul>
in life, someone is first, and someone is last.
<wolfspraul>
I like to drive my Chinese friends crazy by opting to be the last one, he he
<wolfspraul>
like when entering a bus, I go to the end of the line saying "today I want to be the last one"
<wolfspraul>
ha ha (really, I do that)
<wolfspraul>
that gives me such satisfaction. and they think I'm some alien from Mars, everybody fighting with all sorts of little tricks to go 1 spot ahead in the line...
<wolfspraul>
but there are days when I do that too, and I do it well. and I will be the #1 :-)
<wpwrak>
they probably assume you're secret police or such ;-)
<cladamw>
it's sometime pretty good idea , really, they even call me before and after Chinese lunar new year to know when I will go there/house to have a meetings.
<wolfspraul>
nah, it's just a culture play
<wolfspraul>
but I really do it, it's relaxing
<wolfspraul>
someone has to be last, right?
<wolfspraul>
might as well be me today! :-)
<wolfspraul>
I can't stand this stressful "I have to be #1" all the time, just takes the joy out of life...
<wolfspraul>
definitely OT in #milkymist, sorry :-)
<cladamw>
at that time I would say oah yes, nice that you called me about this, and this time the smt run we surely select your vertical system to make it. or etc...
<xiangfu>
kristianpaul, all you needs is update all milkymist git repo. then apply wernermisc.git patches for rtems.
<cladamw>
wpwrak, another one mechanical hole added in fgpa sheet.
<cladamw>
I'll start to sum up my histories about all changes then send to list for review if you don't see any big problems. ;-)
<wpwrak>
ah :) maybe mention in the comment that it's a mechanical hole ?
<kristianpaul>
xiangfu: thanks °
<kristianpaul>
s/°/!
<cladamw>
aha...mention to like : make strong fix for suffering from push extension board when plugging ?
<cladamw>
or show me the best mention you like. ;-)
<wpwrak>
naw, just say something like "mechanical mounting hole"
<wpwrak>
otherwise, readers will wonder what the heck this "connector" does :)
<cladamw>
hup? hehe..okay.
<cladamw>
oh ... yup yesterday you found it long :)
<wpwrak>
schematics aren't a good place for writing long stories :) what concerns me most are things that can't be easily identified. such as J27 and friends.
<cladamw>
true
<cladamw>
wpwrak, updated and changed J21 J22's p/n to also FCI p/n : 87606-310LF you selected.
<cladamw>
that p/n is being the final but can be also alternative. as long as we find another same spec but good price.
<cladamw>
good price sometimes doesn't show up available quantity in digi-key though.
<wpwrak>
yeah
<wpwrak>
we should select 2-3 choices. also for mating parts. and the little plastic plug. then you could order a few of each and test that they really fit.
<cladamw>
we should get few samples about this too to see if can fit as well.
<cladamw>
i had have male 40*2 headers here. so it's okay
<wpwrak>
we should check that the digi-key parts fit. there's quite a bit of variation on, say, mating length
<cladamw>
40*2/2.54mm header is very popular in normal electronic shop.
<wpwrak>
oh yes, that it is :)
<cladamw>
sure, but female connector on main board, the most parameter is the height said 8.5mm
<cladamw>
and check their suction hole's depth to let male plugin.
<wpwrak>
not quite :) the main parameter is the mating length. the overall height is influenced by it (and should be more or less have a fixed offset).
<wpwrak>
yup, the "hole depth" is the mating length
<cladamw>
the FCI, Harwin and Molex have parts to as the same 'mating length', yeah...we can leave this task later when order parts.
<wpwrak>
yeah, it's more a documentation issue. for the "expansion connector spec"
<cladamw>
time to review mistakes or stupid connections or underline secrets we didn't find among those changes we made. phew~
<wpwrak>
we basically want to have a set of parts we know will work
<wpwrak>
so if someone runs into trouble, we can offer them a safe choice
<wpwrak>
whether they take it or not, well, not really our responsibility :)
<cladamw>
yup, to promote a good application on expansion board, we should edit a specific wiki page or document to introduce this important feature.
<wpwrak>
i used it for the midi manual. and i think sebastien used latex for the FN handboek as well
<cladamw>
alright, so do u have else opinions/comments on draft ?
<wpwrak>
it's the tool of choice if you want good-looking documents
<cladamw>
oh, for document tool.
<wpwrak>
(draft) is there anything specific you want me to look at ?
<wpwrak>
oh, and joerg suggested to NC the J21/J22 pins we use as a key. so the GND wouldn't actually connect in schematics or layout.
<cladamw>
no, if you don't have else to remind me. then I'll sum up and post to list for a whole review. and if I don't describe well somewhere then pls directly reply to replenish. ;-)
<wpwrak>
his reasoning is that this gives some more layout choices for expansion boards. i'd agree with this.
<cladamw>
"On the expansion board or connector side, one would simply
<cladamw>
cut the respective pin. Joerg suggested to cut pin 4 of J21 and pin 1 of J22. With
<cladamw>
this kind of keying, connectors could not be reversed, would
<cladamw>
be harder to shift, and it would also be difficult to insert something for J21 at J22 and vice versa. We should probably still connect the "cut" pins to GND, just in case."
<wpwrak>
hmm, the SW2 comment may still be a tad cryptic. how about: "About the numbering: there used to be also SW1 and SW3 (and BTN1/3), but we found that one button is all we need, and removed them." ?
<cladamw>
wpwrak, maybe i misunderstood this content,
<cladamw>
(SW2) okay,
<wpwrak>
what joerg suggested contradicts my suggestion to ground them. but i think it's okay to follow his suggestion. so instead of grounding the pins that will get a plastic key (J21.4 and K22.1), NC them.
<cladamw>
(keying) I was thought/understood Joerg's 'cut' which to cut the pins on extension board not M1 side. am i right?
<wpwrak>
bonus: you can also see in the schematics where the key is
<wpwrak>
on M1, it would be a plug (that little plastic key). but yes, the trace would be cut (or just not exist), too.
<cladamw>
so let J21.4 and J22.1 be NC(was GNDs) in M1 side, is that correct ?
<wpwrak>
yup
<cladamw>
okay...i change them . ;-)
<cladamw>
wpwrak, updated. :)
Artyom has joined #milkymist
<Artyom>
wolfspraul: Am I understand right that milkymist-group is mainly focused on developing MM SoC and MM1 schematic? pcb-layout is made by third party company?
<wolfspraul>
a number of external companies/suppliers are involved
<wolfspraul>
raumfahrtagentur has been doing the mechanical design and case manufacturing
<wolfspraul>
all files are published freely, free tools were used (qcad), etc.
<wolfspraul>
the electrical board design is still primarily held in Altium files, the Altium files of course are published
<wolfspraul>
from the Altium files we create the GERBER files that are used to make the PCBs, by newheart.com.tw
<wolfspraul>
the GERBERs are also somewhere
<Artyom>
And who have access to Altium? It's a commercial tool.
<wolfspraul>
for the layout, we use the service of a layout house, PLAB www.plab.com.tw
<wolfspraul>
so we give them the Altium files that only contain the schematics, and they add the layout (basically), for a fee, and return the files to us
<wolfspraul>
yes, agreed. so we want to switch to KiCad :-)
<wolfspraul>
then we use a SMT place MinBo in Taipei (no functioning website)
<wolfspraul>
assembly and testing at Adam's home factory ;-)
<Artyom>
And how expensive is PLAB service for a boads like MM1? Does PLAB works with KiCAD? Do they make signal-integrity analysis?
<wolfspraul>
accessories are sourced from various vendors, mostly in China (cables, camera, keyboard, remote from Taipei). All of those are documented in the wiki.
<wolfspraul>
good question
<wolfspraul>
especially since we have another round of using PLAB just next week or so :-)
<Artyom>
And who is producing PCBs?
<wolfspraul>
think of PLAB like a service-for-hire
<wolfspraul>
just wrote: newheart.com.tw
<wolfspraul>
so PLAB is a layout house that is doing layout for OEM/ODM in Taipei
<wolfspraul>
basically you hire them because of their experience, they are fast, etc.
<wolfspraul>
so no, definitely, if we would switch to KiCad we remove our ability to work with PLAB, unless just for giving them GERBERs and asking for feedback
<wolfspraul>
because PLAB has professional layout people and they are so crazy fast in the tools they know, that's why people work with them
<wolfspraul>
they will typically support PADS Layout/Mentographics, Altium
<wolfspraul>
definitely no kicad or geda
<wolfspraul>
we searched all of Taipei, no professional company even has heard of them
<wolfspraul>
same in China, though China is huge and there may be some small places somewhere
<wolfspraul>
so if we move to kicad, we start with the schematics & bom
<wolfspraul>
the layout stays in altium, for now
<Artyom>
In what format do they take electic schemes? Can they convert from KiCAD or any other free program to their tools?
<wolfspraul>
we do all these steps one by one so it's practical. no dogma. we want to make functioning products.
<wolfspraul>
they 'can', of course
<wolfspraul>
you pay for their working hours
<wolfspraul>
it's like a lawyer
<wolfspraul>
you can hire a lawyer to start all sorts of crazy lawsuits for you
<wolfspraul>
as long as you pay he will not care that much :-)
<wolfspraul>
those are essentially paid-hands that are very good with a few tools, like pads/orcad/altium
<wolfspraul>
when you take out those tools, there is not much value from hiring them
<wolfspraul>
to do the layout for a board like m1 is not that expensive, for example if you give them altium files with reasonable quality schematics, and zero layout, maybe it will cost 2000 USD or so to create the entire layout
<wolfspraul>
if you just want to tweak/make changes to an existing layout, a few hundred USD should be enough
<wolfspraul>
so we do things in parallel a little
<wolfspraul>
on one hand we continue to use the Altium files, just next week or so again for R4 - hire PLAB to update the layout
<wolfspraul>
(and very importantly: get their feedback/advice)
<wolfspraul>
on the other hand start entering schematics and bom into kicad, connect to boom sourcing tool
<wolfspraul>
then we see what works, and improve later
<wolfspraul>
Artyom: does this answer your queestion?
<Artyom>
Do PLAB guaranty somehow the quality of their design? That it will work fine for high-speed signals?
<wolfspraul>
he
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
you pay them for their work
<wolfspraul>
does a gardener you hire for your garden guarantee you that your flowers won't die?
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
you can change the gardener though
<wolfspraul>
but of course, that is precisely the reason why you want to work with someone like PLAB
<wolfspraul>
because they do tons of layouts, all the time
<wolfspraul>
they have seen it all :-)
<wolfspraul>
and they know what people are doing in new high-speed designs
<wolfspraul>
in fact they do it
<Artyom>
Yeah, this helped to understand the process :) Thank you for your explanation :)
<wolfspraul>
over 50% of new computer designs are originating at Taiwanese OEM/ODM companies
<wolfspraul>
so there is a really serious cluster of knowledge about those things in Taipei
<wolfspraul>
like *serious*
<Artyom>
Last questions: As I understand there are people that live in Europe, China and other places that cooperate with all the companies that you have mentioned?
<wolfspraul>
sort of, yes
<wolfspraul>
it's all very simple though, think of a few friends
<wolfspraul>
I think we all operate from our homes :-)
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
just went through mentally :-)
<wolfspraul>
100% from-home 'corporation' :-)
<wolfspraul>
Adam is in Taipei
<wolfspraul>
ah hold on
sh4rm4 has joined #milkymist
<wolfspraul>
raumfahrtagentur has a big studio! :-)
<wolfspraul>
the mechanical design guys in Berlin
<Artyom>
And one more question: What is the price for manufacturing MM1 PCB in small quantities (I mean production of new pcb not existing one)? As I understand it's a 6-layer pcb with minimum line width about 0.125mm?
<wolfspraul>
the prices are all in the wiki
<wolfspraul>
one sec I find it
<wolfspraul>
actually I want to make the entire accounting public, except for money paid to individuals :-)
<wolfspraul>
thinking about setting up an openerp/tryton server
<wolfspraul>
the price per pcb would continue to come down a lot if we order higher volumes
<wolfspraul>
you see the curve and you can imagine, if you order 200pc, 500pc, 1000pc, price per pcb will drop easily below 10 usd, and further
<Artyom>
As I understand for small quantities of pcb the main part of the price is "production preparations".
<wolfspraul>
or even just company overhead
<wolfspraul>
think of the lawyer again
<wolfspraul>
the pcb shop may have 100 people to feed
<wolfspraul>
that means accounting, management, etc.
<wolfspraul>
at some point they cannot accept an order/customer who will give them 10 USD revenue
<wolfspraul>
please keep in mind that there are real people everywhere
<wolfspraul>
at newheart, I think whatever you make you will have a minimum of 500 USD or so
<wolfspraul>
if you want to make each pcp cheaper, just order more :-)
<wolfspraul>
price will come down A LOT
<wolfspraul>
but there is overhead for each customer/order, of course
<Artyom>
I asked these questions because I want to compare them with prices that are offered on russian-market. As I understand for difficult designs (with traces width less then 0.15) some pcb-production companies make orders in china.
<wolfspraul>
I will share all my numbers with you
<Artyom>
I mainly interested in experimental-pcb-designs. At least for now...
<wolfspraul>
that's the whole point of our open manufacturing project :-)
<Artyom>
So only extra-small quatities...
<wolfspraul>
if you really want to make something, Adam can help you
<wolfspraul>
but please only if you really really want to manufacture something
<wolfspraul>
because I am paying Adam's time ;-)
<wolfspraul>
it all comes down to working hours, really
<wolfspraul>
for terminology, China != Taiwan
<Artyom>
ok :) When I will have ready gerbers I will asl your advice ;)
<wolfspraul>
in general you can say this:
<wolfspraul>
very welcome
<wolfspraul>
is your work/files open?
<Artyom>
*ask
<wolfspraul>
(just curious)
<wolfspraul>
so yes, I want to help, definitely
<wolfspraul>
let me give you some more guidance
<wolfspraul>
I don't know South Korea and Japan well, only Taiwan & China
<wolfspraul>
first thing to keep in mind
<wolfspraul>
South Korea and Japan are options that are surely intersting, but I just know very little
<Artyom>
My personal project are opened. There are also designs that I have to make for the place where I work. And in this case "it depends..."
<wolfspraul>
now, Taiwan in general is about 2* as expensive as China
<wolfspraul>
'in general'
<wolfspraul>
Taiwan has a huge Japanese influence
<wolfspraul>
it was a Japanese colony for 50+ years
<wolfspraul>
Taiwan is tiny (25 million people, massive tech cluster in Taipei)
<wolfspraul>
China is huge, 1.3 billion people, dozens of huge cities
<wolfspraul>
so...
<wolfspraul>
Taiwan in general is an excellent place for small runs
<wolfspraul>
they have very educated people
<wolfspraul>
lots of experience
<wolfspraul>
lots of brain
<wolfspraul>
very reasonable prices
<wolfspraul>
Japanese influence (quality), Chinese influence (efficiency)
<wolfspraul>
I think I can say that without upsetting Adam :-)
<wolfspraul>
I can highly recommend Taipei as a place for innovative small runs, pcb or smt or layout or mechanical work
<wolfspraul>
China (mainland) is more difficult
<wolfspraul>
it's cheaper, but it's wild
<wolfspraul>
chaotic
<wolfspraul>
absolutely no quality standards
<wolfspraul>
like *zero*
<wolfspraul>
you cannot imagine
<wolfspraul>
I often meet Chinese designers who admire my pcbs and say they are searching in mainland china for years and cannot find 1 quality pcb maker...
<wolfspraul>
in the long run from all the chaos and competition in mainland, some quality companies may emerge
<wolfspraul>
'may'
<wolfspraul>
but I have full access to both sides, China and Taiwan
<wolfspraul>
and I am happily picking Taiwan for pretty much everything I can
<Artyom>
I read on one russian forum about china-pcb-makers. The main idea: many companies are very different... Some can produce rather good things.
<wolfspraul>
does this make sense?
<wolfspraul>
yes, sure
<wolfspraul>
like I said
<wolfspraul>
wild
<wolfspraul>
no standards
<wolfspraul>
very very chaotic
<wolfspraul>
most companies in China that are consistently making high quality products are under foreign (including Taiwanese) management
<Artyom>
But actually it's difficult for me to judge. I've never been in either place.
<wolfspraul>
I think I can say 90% :-)
<wolfspraul>
my advice to you is simple: follow and use the same small Taipei shops I am using
<wolfspraul>
and Adam can help you, as long as the time investment is controlled
<wolfspraul>
China is cheaper, theoretically. about half price.
<wolfspraul>
but you are in the jungle
<wolfspraul>
most quality shops in China are under foreign management, and that will drive the price up again
<Artyom>
ok, when the time will come I will take into account all possibilities. And thanks again for your explanations. I don't know a lot of things :)
<wolfspraul>
sure no problem, you are very welcome
<wolfspraul>
especially if your projects are open, I'd love to support them with the limited means that I have
<wolfspraul>
one last thing about China
<wolfspraul>
so I said 90% of the quality companies in China are foreign-managed
<wolfspraul>
and for the remaining 10%, most are huge
<wolfspraul>
totally not setup for small runs, prototypes, innovation
<wolfspraul>
you cannot work with huawei, for example
<wolfspraul>
unless you want say 1 million PCBs, or better yet 10 million PCBs
<wolfspraul>
at that level they may do it for you in their factories, at their (high) quality standards
<wolfspraul>
but what we are looking for is an intersection between cheap, low-volume, high-brain
<wolfspraul>
that's tough, and generally pick Taipei and follow the shops I'm using
<wolfspraul>
since I'm doing this for years and saw A LOT of shops :-)
<Artyom>
Thanks for the time you've spent for me. It's time to leave for me. bye.
<wolfspraul>
cu
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<Fallenou>
morning !
<Fallenou>
(new release) excellent news !
<cladamw>
phew~just fixed 46 warnings in R4. ;-)
<cladamw>
rc3 we left 18 warnings, R4 is 19. 16/19 is the same as rc3 which is okay. Working on rests.
<cladamw>
(removed L19) this makes compiler telling warning for having multiple names(GND & VIDEOIN_AGND), it's okay.
<cladamw>
one shows for Bidirectional Port and Unspecified Port objects, it's also acceptable to me. Since rc3 have one too. ;-) Well but at best to fix it as well. :)
<cladamw>
the last is Floating object.
<cladamw>
compiler I dislike you but also like you more. :)
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<wpwrak>
cladamw: removing warnings is always good ;-)
<wpwrak>
cladamw: when programming, there are sometimes people who don't that. they simply don't ask the compiler for warnings and ignore those it generates anyway. when i run into such a program, the first thing i always do is turn on the usual warnings. then run a compilation and see what happens.
<wpwrak>
cladamw: i almost always find a bug or two this way ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I cannot wait to move all this into KiCad and get the quality up
<wpwrak>
yeah, in kciad, we can also add our own checking
<wolfspraul>
I finally have my m1 setup to be running continuously besides me, which is so inspiring
<wolfspraul>
nothing will stop me now from a) improving it little by little b) emailing poor targets from my long marketing leads list about how great it is :-)
<wolfspraul>
hey, you "500 usd screensaver" commenters - I'm ready!
<wpwrak>
hehe ;-)
<wpwrak>
yes, it's important to have one available all the time
<wpwrak>
i should actually build some sort of rack so that i can have both units up and running
<wolfspraul>
there's two things out of this already
<wolfspraul>
first, I will look around for the cheapest & largest flat TV I can find that supports VGA in
<wolfspraul>
that way I can hang the TV somewhere and turn it into a M1 art box
<cladamw>
wpwrak, oah..yup. i need to check more and update my histories in wiki.
<wpwrak>
that projector you gave to xiangu sounds kinda nice
<wolfspraul>
and second, I will buy the cheapest openwrt supported router I can find to turn it into a ethernet<->wifi gateway for m1
<wpwrak>
heh :)
<wolfspraul>
then I have a complete solution to turn any TV screen into something really different
<wpwrak>
try to find one that operates on 5 V. that way, you could share power
<wolfspraul>
one by one
<wolfspraul>
like I said, I feel inspired having this run besides me now
<wolfspraul>
finally
<wolfspraul>
without fan, I cannot handle the noise of a fan
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
now TV, openwrt wifi gateway...
<wpwrak>
btw, did you show midi to jon ?
<wolfspraul>
not yet
<wolfspraul>
Jon and I are both working 24/7, we meet all the time
<wpwrak>
phew. the looong road.
<wolfspraul>
no no
<wolfspraul>
I need to get it to work here myself first
<wolfspraul>
'almost' there :-)
<wpwrak>
napoleon made it to moscow and back in just a few months. i think i'm on that "kill the screen saver meme" mission already longer than that ...
<wolfspraul>
oh that comment is great
<wolfspraul>
it shows that the commenter is 100% stuck in his PC thinking
<wolfspraul>
either he wants to get out there or not
<wolfspraul>
if not, keep commeting about 500 USD screensavers
<wolfspraul>
if yes, follow me on explaining the Milkymist journey
<wpwrak>
next phase: you need to make your own midi-using patch (or adapt an existing one)
<wpwrak>
(screen saver) i was more thinking of you and jon pushing M1 as an unattended video generator. as opposed to an instrument.
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<wpwrak>
imaging going to an instrument shop looking for a violin. they try to sell you a model that has as its main feature (as far as they advertize it) a fully self-playing mode. what does that say about the instrument ? what does that say about those who buy it ? :)
<wpwrak>
maybe it's actually a great violin. but you'll probably never find out ;-)
<wolfspraul>
too hard to follow on a friday night
<wolfspraul>
I will re-read this thought tomorrow morning :-)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
I was just thinking about experimenting with a large prism in front of my laser projector
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: have a nice weekend!
<wolfspraul>
this was another great milkymist week with lots of good things happening
<cladamw>
have a nice weekend you guys too !
<wolfspraul>
I don't think any sales came in, but that's on my side and I need to just work more diligently on that too.
<wolfspraul>
we shipped out the sunday order though
<wolfspraul>
oh, and another one from taipei in-progress
<wolfspraul>
we get there :-)
<wpwrak>
btw, a while ago, it seemed as if yi was going to work on the FN handbook. is this (still) on ?
<wolfspraul>
in theory yes
<wolfspraul>
in practice don't know, you know how hard it is to prioritize and focus
<wolfspraul>
or should I re-read some old schedule plans of yours? :-)
<wpwrak>
naw, i'm just curious who's taking care of documentation
<wolfspraul>
she just mentioned to me today how frustrated she was that that idea still wasn't really started...
<wpwrak>
the handbook is a good start but needs more work
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
if I tell Yi that you remembered her plan she will be happy and motivated, I will surely do so
<wpwrak>
maybe also a different format. there's relatively little on a page, making it a bit inconvenient to use online
<wpwrak>
also, maybe the latex could be generated from some simpler markup. one that we could also use on the M1. that way, we'd get build-in help.
<wpwrak>
(motivated) very good ! :)
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<wpwrak>
btw, how can i find out whether a changes soc still meets timing ? will the build fail if it does ? will it issue a warning but let me proceed with a broken design ? or will it leave me in the dark completely ?
<wpwrak>
s/changes/changed/
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<cxadams>
quick question, is there a convenient way to get a screenshot from an M1? wolfspraul?
<Fallenou>
wpwrak: at the end of synthesis you have a big table with timing constraints
<Fallenou>
when there is a (*) it means it's not met
<Fallenou>
and after the table it should write "All timings were met"
<lekernel>
wpwrak: it will print a warning message
<wpwrak>
would the "All timings [...]" be in system.srp ?
<wpwrak>
no "met" or "MET" in the file
<wpwrak>
what would the warning message look like ?
<Fallenou>
let me check
<wpwrak>
ah, i may have found it. system-routed.par has "All constraints were met." is this the one ?
<Fallenou>
yes
<Fallenou>
I just found it ;)
<Fallenou>
and you have a big big table before that
<Fallenou>
with "PATH"
<Fallenou>
if you get a *, it's bad
<wpwrak>
kewl. thanks !
<wpwrak>
now let's see if it can get at the pc of that navre ...
<Fallenou>
you're tring to setup a continuous integration server ?
<wpwrak>
naw, i'm just trying to find out why softusb goes completely mad
<wpwrak>
e.g., i remove one debug message -> it doesn't even print the banner (NB: that debug message is never even triggered in that scenario)
<wpwrak>
or i replace one debug message with another one -> navre hangs the M1 (alas, i didn't jump on that one in time and have to figure out again how to reproduce it)
<wpwrak>
we never read from MM_SOFTUSB_CONTROL, do we ?
<lekernel>
wpwrak: not afaik, why?
<lekernel>
it can be read though
<wpwrak>
i'm abusing it now to read the PC :)
<wpwrak>
kinda convenient: mdump prints more-or-less successive PC values
<lekernel>
hmm, navre shouldn't crash the M1, unless it keeps asserting IRQ
<wpwrak>
i see three ways how it could do this: 1) IRQ, 2) keep on producing data faster than the LM32 can read it, 3) set the data index to an invalid value (>= period)
<wpwrak>
ah, and 4) send data that triggers some other bug in FN ;-)
<wpwrak>
btw, i'm setting up some environment variables for logging into the M1. so far, I've used M1_HOST, and M1_USER, and M1_PW. do they sound good for a "semi-official" feature ? (i.e., insecure as hell, but we can expect the M1 to be properly firewalled in this case)
<wpwrak>
or should they be MILKYMIST_... ? (a bit of a mouthful in all-caps) or something else ?
<lekernel>
MM_ ?
<wpwrak>
hehe :) okay, MM_ then
<wpwrak>
and let's hope disney don't sue us :)
<lekernel>
we already have MMDIR and M2DIR for -ng
<wpwrak>
ah yes, then M1 might be confusing
<wpwrak>
part 2: should here be default values ? mine are MM_HOST=m1, MM_USER=foo, MM_PW=bar
<wpwrak>
so .. shall there be defaults ? and if yes, what shall they be ?
<lekernel>
I don't think we need defaults here... everyone's has their network set up differently, and people would need to set login/pwd in the M1 GUI anyway
<wpwrak>
it's more for people who don't even want to bother with setting up the env variables. lazy bastards like me :)
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<lekernel_>
I don't think we need defaults here... everyone's has their network set up differently, and people would need to set login/pwd in the M1 GUI anyway
<wpwrak>
it's more for people who don't even want to bother with setting up the env variables. lazy bastards like me :)
<GitHub56>
[milkymist/master] softusb-input/Makefile: minor cleanup (whitespace and .PHONY) - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub56>
[milkymist/master] tools/asm/pfpu: renamed M1_{HOST,USER,PW} to MM_* and removed defaults - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub56>
[milkymist/master] softusb-input/Makefile: added target "upload" to upload softusb-input.bin to M1 - Werner Almesberger
<wpwrak>
hmm, should this be as scary as it looks ?
<wpwrak>
WARNING:Timing:3225 - Timing constraint OFFSET = OUT 5 ns AFTER COMP "vga_clk" ignored during timing analysis
* Fallenou
didn't care about it but not sure if it should scare you
<wpwrak>
(just stumbled upon it, while watching paint dry, err, synthesis complete)
<wpwrak>
it makes me think of the weird DAC issues we run into from time to time
<wpwrak>
and the warning looks as if things were done in the wrong order
<wpwrak>
well, after going to migen, perhaps we can try to reduce that flood of warnings a little. having a generator (migen) between source and the xilinx tools will also help in cases where ugly work-arounds are needed to get rid of warnings