<wpwrak>
Fallenou: hurry ! we need to get MMU, linux, then USB-WLAN. quicker than wolfgang can sort out the quirks of the chimera he's building ! :)
<wolfspraul>
that will work in 2 days Werner, you have no chance :-)
<wolfspraul>
and it's besides the point because it's not really a chimera but a very practial small wi-fi dongle, just connected over Ethernet which works on M1 *today*
<wolfspraul>
and... not to forget. I did an exhaustive comparison of usb-wifi dongles recently, and what I found is not pretty at all
<wolfspraul>
the only difference is for the wifi that comes with integrated chipsets like intel
<wolfspraul>
and also the atheros 5 and 9
<wolfspraul>
besides that you will have frequent disconnects, crashes, hangs, you-name-it
<wpwrak>
yeha, wlan and linux have a tense relationship
<wolfspraul>
ra-link (acquired by mtk), atheros 6 (plus acquired by qualcomm), realtek
<wolfspraul>
our Wi-Fi strategy is 100% correct - keep this beast at arm's length
<wolfspraul>
however, we need to make it work for our customers
<wolfspraul>
today
<wolfspraul>
and that WR-703N is an option I just found yesterday
<kristianpaul>
cheaper i found was 24usd :-/
<wolfspraul>
let me try out first, I am sure there are problems
<kristianpaul>
oh, sure
<kristianpaul>
but the price and china free shipping is very temtative ;-)
<wolfspraul>
I find it in the corner shop here next to batteries and cheap mice & keyboard, so you have a guess as far as the volume it must be at already
<wolfspraul>
there is even a mainland clone, another 1 USD cheaper, but they removed the USB 2.0 host connector
<kristianpaul>
arghh, sould out on DX...
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: hey, I didn't want to cause a buying frenzy over this, just sharing what was on my mind right now :-)
<wolfspraul>
I will buy a few and experiment
<kristianpaul>
no no, no problem at all
<wolfspraul>
*maybe* this can quickly build a wi-fi bridge for my m1, that's all
<kristianpaul>
as i said, price and features call atention
<wolfspraul>
it would make demoing and using m1 with more connectivity easier, like rss feeds, downloaded images, etc.
<kristianpaul>
M1 ships free 3G, :-)
<kristianpaul>
lol
<kristianpaul>
bbl dinner
<wolfspraul>
but at that pricepoint, if it really works I am not even opposed to putting one of these little thingies in the box, together with a perfectly customized "m1 wifi bridge" openwrt image on it
<wolfspraul>
"3G" is a joke, it just means you can connect a 3G USB dongle
<kristianpaul>
xD
<wolfspraul>
I have a clear idea for this, Wi-Fi bridge for m1
<kristianpaul>
anyway, sorry noise, looks very interesting device for openwrt hacking anyway :-)
<wolfspraul>
only that
<kristianpaul>
he, sure i just have others too ;-)
<wolfspraul>
and powered even from a USB port, with R3 that takes 50% of the ports, with with R4 we have 4...
<wolfspraul>
so one cable into ethernet, one into USB, and there we have Wi-Fi...
<GitHub145>
[milkymist/usb-debug] softusb: disable RX timeout message in usb_in - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub145>
[milkymist/usb-debug] softusb: don't send SOF while in full-speed bus reset - Werner Almesberger
<GitHub145>
[milkymist/usb-debug] softusb: fix two typos, one of them breaking some error detection - Werner Almesberger
<wolfspraul>
I was wondering about the lm32 compiler - we are typically compiling as a cross compiler, no? is it possible to build the lm32 toolchain natively and run it in qemu?
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<wpwrak>
i suppose you could do that. but why ? for distribution building ?
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<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: maybe we see different or - hope dies last - less bugs in such an environment
<wolfspraul>
thinking ahead a little, and really just a little Sunday daydreaming, I am wondering whether we can remove the MIDI connectors in a future revision, and instead include one of those usb-midi cables in the box. after we get them working well I don't see easily what could justify keeping the 5-pin midi connectors.
<wolfspraul>
the usb-midi cables could restrict us electrically or otherwise in terms of the MIDI protocol? probably not...
<wolfspraul>
another risk is that we cannot source such cables easily anymore at some point in the future? probably also not very likely, though theoretically in the very long run the connectors are probably easier to get than such a cable
<wolfspraul>
it could free space in the side panels and on the pcb
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<wpwrak>
(less bugs in a native environment) hmm, yes and no. if you get package X written by someone who doesn't care about cross-compilation, then you're better of in a native environment, that's true.
<wpwrak>
but most things you take from a distribution or that have been vetted for distribution should already be cross-compilation clean
<wolfspraul>
yes I just wanted to ask whether someone tried that
<wolfspraul>
probably not, although I remember reading about qemu once in a while, but less recently that more hw is easily available
<wpwrak>
sebastien ran into issues with what he affectionately calls autocrap, but i don't know if these would go away by avoiding cross-compilation or whether they are simply issues of an unrecognized target (or maybe just an incomplete build environment)
<wpwrak>
(midi) you'll win with having the DIN connectors over using a USB-MIDI dongle the day you're the last one using MIDI ;-)
<wolfspraul>
don't understand
<wpwrak>
not sure such a doomsday scenario is really relevant for milkymist's wellbeing, though ;-)
<wolfspraul>
'win' in which way, and what is the advantage over a cable?
<wpwrak>
advantage: better integration (and imho, that's the only one)
<wolfspraul>
assuming the cable works perfectly with usb bugs fixed, what's the downside?
<wolfspraul>
integration?
<wolfspraul>
it's just a cable, and you have to have a cable anyway
<wpwrak>
availability of usb-midi cables will exist as long as there's a significant number of users of traditional midi
<wolfspraul>
if we move to dvi-i, there will be more cables, and maybe we support vga sampling with the adv7181c one day - another cable
<wpwrak>
well, it's a "fat" cable. but yes, it's not too nasty as far as cables go
<wolfspraul>
yes, I think we can assume they will exist for a long time
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<wolfspraul>
I am not suggesting to make this change now, the reasoning just popped into my mind somehow
<wolfspraul>
and I am in no way suggesting to remove midi, quite the contrary. but the cable...
<wolfspraul>
removing the connectors would free space for interesting new things
<wpwrak>
ironically, when i was gearing up for playing with midi, i found the usb-midi critter at the very first shop. that same shop (one of the largest shops in town for MIDI things, mixers, etc.) didn't have DIN-to-DIN cables
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
I know :-)
<wpwrak>
i only found the cable some three shops later. and the one cable may have been more expensive than the entire usb-midi dongle ;-)
<wolfspraul>
so I wanted to just *ask* whether that may be an idea for R5 or not, but no urgency
<wolfspraul>
is it possible that the usb-midi cables don't support certain things?
<wolfspraul>
I will start to ask around with the pros, if I run into one.
<wolfspraul>
but I think mostly everybody is on USB nowadays
<wolfspraul>
with DMX you find large installations, really long cables, etc.
<wpwrak>
hmm. maybe for M2. i'd love to go to a more front/back oriented form factor. not the current "octopus" arrangement
<wolfspraul>
but the old-style midi is definitely a legacy thing that might well be solved for good with a cable
<wolfspraul>
ok, one by one
<wolfspraul>
the din-midi vs. usb-midi question is one that stands independently
<wolfspraul>
1. are there things/features that only din-midi can do? shortcomings of the cable?
<wpwrak>
usb-midi may have some minor latency issues. but that's probably not even something we care about. i mean, we have 24 Hz granularity anyway.
<wolfspraul>
2. can we trust the cable to be sourcable for years?
<wolfspraul>
3. are we technically at the point that the usb-midi cables on m1 actually work bug-free?
<wolfspraul>
those need to be answered calmly and professionally, in and of itself
<wolfspraul>
for the good of our users, since as you said it starts to become really hard to even find din-midi cables...
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't worry about sourcing. if it really becomes an issue, then that would mean that the old midi devices are dying out. and anyone who still has one will probably have solved the connectivity problem by then
<wolfspraul>
and if we tell our own users they should best look for a usb-midi cable, well then... :-)
<wpwrak>
3) is more difficult to answer. needs more testing.
<wolfspraul>
sure, no urgency on this
<wolfspraul>
it would free space though
<wolfspraul>
for the next bigger revision, call it m2 or whatever, well, let's see
<wolfspraul>
sounds like by then the -7 series xilinx fpgas could be an option, ddr3, rearrangement of pins, sdi-video or other new features? touch, hdmi-in, whatever... :-)
<wpwrak>
it would also remove some "unusual" components :)
<wpwrak>
what's SDI-video ?
<wpwrak>
and yes, we may need more pins soonish. we've been quite generous in M1r4 ;-)
<wpwrak>
the curse of having an abundance (of free pins, in M1rc3). you think you'll never run out of them, so you start spending ...
<wolfspraul>
it's just one of a list of things m1/m2 could add at some point. adding it would require first learning more about lots of things there. how hard it is to support, how common, growing or shrinking, actual sales potential, and so on
<wpwrak>
oh wow, another standard. the video sector is quite productive :)
<wolfspraul>
3000 gbit/sec :-)
<wpwrak>
huh ? i think you mean 3.000 Gbps :)
<wolfspraul>
the video guys are really pushing the limits
<wolfspraul>
3 gbit/sec?
<wpwrak>
nobody does 3 Tbps. i think not even the L1 cache in your server cpu ;-)
<wolfspraul>
don't know, just glancing over the wiki page. anyway this requires more research first, it's just one of many things floating around together with screens, touch and others
<wpwrak>
(cache speed) yeah, L1 should be about one order of magnitude below 1 Tbps. there are fibers that carry more, though. at least in labs ;-)
<wpwrak>
3 Gbps is already quite good :)
<wolfspraul>
yes yes. misread the . and ,
<wolfspraul>
it's 3gbps of course
<wolfspraul>
max
<wolfspraul>
next time I look for a bunch of m1-related cables, I will try to find a vendor for a usb-midi cable as well
<wolfspraul>
by now, let me think what is on my list
<wolfspraul>
vga sub-d to rca
<wolfspraul>
that could help if m1 supported tv-out, and also on the other side if (with adv7181c) we would support sampling vga input
<wolfspraul>
then of course dvi-i to vga, that's a must with r4
<wolfspraul>
and dvi-i to hdmi
<wolfspraul>
and then also usb2midi, since we talk to cable vendors anyway it's easy to add to the list, maybe for the future
<wolfspraul>
the only thing that's a must for R4 is dvi-i to vga/hdmi, the rest requires software upgrades first
<wpwrak>
yup
<wpwrak>
vga-in also needs some signal mixing, to squeeze vga into 3 signals. not sure if there are ready-made cables for this. maybe yes.
<wolfspraul>
I hope one day we can still support tv-out
<wpwrak>
if it will still matter that day :)
<wolfspraul>
because by watching a number of projectors, I think VGA is disappearing faster then TV-IN
<wolfspraul>
yes, it will. tv-in/out will stay longer than vga I think, much longer maybe. that's just my impression afer following and watching this more closely for a while now
<wpwrak>
it may become more and more crappy over time, though
<wolfspraul>
even the most high-end HD-whatnot screens have RCA jacks, and I cannot believe how many installed high-end screens I find where people use exactly those jacks to connect stuff
<wolfspraul>
but vga, compared to RCA, seems on the fast track to computer junkyard
<wpwrak>
vga has the disadvantage of taking up a bit of space
<wpwrak>
RCA is nice and simple, as long as you don't care about bandwidth :)
<wolfspraul>
so I think as long as we have an expensive DAC in our product, we should make use of that DAC to support tv-out
<wolfspraul>
I know, just saying from observation of projectors and screens.
<wolfspraul>
vga is on the way out, rca is not
<Thihi>
Isn't a realistic modern tv-out hdmi, not rca?
<wolfspraul>
yes, sure
<wolfspraul>
that's a separate line of thought though, and we are adding digital video-out in R4
<Thihi>
Ok.
<wolfspraul>
m1 has 90% of what it needs to support tv-out, so as long as it has a DAC (and can thus support either vga or tv-out), it would be great to support tv-out
<wolfspraul>
a nice feature to add one day...
<wolfspraul>
not urgent either though, but before removing the dav and analog video entirely one day, we should first add tv-out since that may create enough value to justify keeping the dac
<wolfspraul>
this is not about now, I mean some time in the future
<wolfspraul>
Thihi: hi there btw, and thanks for your feedback a little while back!
<wolfspraul>
that is really very appreciated, and I take it serious too
<wolfspraul>
also I think in m1 we have to be careful to not fiddle around the hardware too much and too fast if sw cannot move along and use all that is already possible with the hw
<wolfspraul>
it needs to be a healthy give and take, with focus on community and contributor growth
<wpwrak>
sw lagging also causes holes in hw design testing
<wolfspraul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
yet not adding new hw features means that no new opportunities to contribute emerge
<wolfspraul>
it's a subtle balance
<wolfspraul>
good thing the product itself starts to work better, and can guide us through the process
<wpwrak>
hmm yes, seems that we could support composite out just by soft- and gateware (plus a fancy adapter cable)
<wolfspraul>
not fancy, easy to source and in fact we bought a few already and sent them here and there
<wolfspraul>
this used to be a feature of some graphics cards
<wolfspraul>
the cable goes from vga to rca and s-video I think, there seem to be some differences in how they wire up ddc, I think
<wolfspraul>
I mean different versions of this kind of cable exist
<Thihi>
wolfspraul, np. I just boxed the M1 btw. yesterday. I'm taking it to the office some day next week, and then Rasmus can send it back to you. Do we have a return address? You could mail me one at tapiob@mikrobitti.fi
<wolfspraul>
I have no pressing need to get it back, but of course if you want to get rid of it I have a return address in Germany for you.
<wolfspraul>
did you get the replacement power supply adapter I sent at some point?
<Thihi>
Yes.
<wolfspraul>
cool
<wpwrak>
(not so fancy cable) oh, cool.
<wolfspraul>
so yes, I can email you a return address
<Thihi>
You don't need it? No other reporters looking for a review kit? :)
<wolfspraul>
are you still generally interested in the product? I mean I could send it to you again let's say in 6 months or so if/when it's a lot better :-)
<wolfspraul>
if you like...
<Thihi>
Well, sure, why not.
<wolfspraul>
it's up to you
<wolfspraul>
were you able to use it for any reporting this time?
<Thihi>
Well, there is a lot of potential, and I'd love to see it later on, too, so yeah, let's do that
<wolfspraul>
or is it just too exotic right now?
<Thihi>
Yeah, I wrote a half page article about it.
<wolfspraul>
yes that's probably better than it languishing around at your place for months and months
<wolfspraul>
is there a URL to that article?
<Thihi>
Nope, it's in printed media.
<Thihi>
And in finnish.
<Thihi>
:)
<wolfspraul>
can you include 2 or 3 color photocopies of the article in the shipment back?
<Thihi>
But I can give you the gist of it later on, and maybe provide some quotes. Of course I can give you the whole text, but since it's finnish I don't think you need it?
<Thihi>
Well, sure.
<wolfspraul>
google translate works better and better
<Thihi>
I think I can send you the magazine even. But it's not out quite yet - in a few weeks.
<wolfspraul>
yes, please do so [color photocopies]
<wolfspraul>
yes, magazine even better
<wolfspraul>
let's wait for that
<wolfspraul>
and thanks a lot for you taking the time to do all this, I hope you feel it was worth it
<wolfspraul>
the milkymist soc and m1 are very fragile ideas nowadays, they need a lot of nurturing to become big and strong
<Thihi>
Np. :)
<wolfspraul>
maybe now that you saw m1 you know what I mean :-)
<Thihi>
Yeah.
<wolfspraul>
at least I think you would agree with me that there really is a very unique and different idea in this, so with a little luck and caring, it may grow strong
<wolfspraul>
we shall find out :-)
<wolfspraul>
it's great that you follow it!
<Thihi>
:)
<Thihi>
Anyway, breakfast (yeah, it's four a clock in the afternoon, so sue me, it's sunday) is waiting for me. So talk to you later.
<wolfspraul>
enjoy
<wolfspraul>
i'm off to sleep soon, 10 pm here and alarm at 5.30, urgh
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<Thihi>
:)
<kristianpaul>
alarm :-)
<kristianpaul>
flying early ? :)
<wolfspraul>
no flying, I improve my co2 footprint :-)
<wolfspraul>
I getup every day at 5.30 now since it's easiest with the kindergarten schedule of my daughter
<wolfspraul>
kicks me in shape by 7 AM, not bad actually
<kristianpaul>
oh, i see :)
<wolfspraul>
but as soon as I can I will go back to the more natural sleep from 4 AM to 1 PM
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<wpwrak>
;-)
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<kristianpaul>
wakup early is really refreshing, here is around 20°C at that time... 1 PM is sunlight hell of 32°C :-|
<Thihi>
Ugh. I wish for a perpetual 17 to 25 C.
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<Thihi>
Unfortunately, since I'm finnish, that's two months of the year ;P
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<Fallenou>
01:54 < wpwrak> Fallenou: hurry ! we need to get MMU, linux, then USB-WLAN. quicker than wolfgang can sort out the quirks of the chimera he's building ! :) < hehe working on it :) I do the best I can with the limited time I have :x I just wrote 16 test cases for memory loads, will make it run today !