<wolfspraul>
Hodapp: that's great that you found Milkymist via github!
<wolfspraul>
and I do agree the social aspect of such sites is very important, and we are probably not the smartest in using the 'social web'
<wolfspraul>
I was surprised once how many new people showed up for the Ben NanoNote after a simple version uptick in freshmeat
<wolfspraul>
the at some point xiangfu tried to get a milkymist soc or milkymist firmware project registered at freshmeat but he was turned out because it seems they didn't understand how the different milkymist sub-projects relate to each other
<wolfspraul>
turned down
<wpwrak>
freshmeat used to reach a lot of people. i saw this with some of my more popular linux projects. nowadays, also secondary media may rebroadcast things from freshmeat.
<wolfspraul>
and the 7441 doesn't look good at octopart either, oh well
<wolfspraul>
confusion all around
<wolfspraul>
and the analog.com website manages to say 'obsolete' but links to replacement parts only lead to general search engines, urgh. as if they couldn't list some likely replacement candidates if they are already able to say it's 'obsolete'
<wolfspraul>
that makes me feel better about the Qi wiki :-)
<wolfspraul>
replacement is 7441A :-)
<wpwrak>
at least they have one ;-)
<wolfspraul>
ok, but that looks like a huge and expensive chip
<juliusb>
hey guys, quick question - how many resources of a spartan 6 does the lm32 consume in the config you use it in in the m1?
<wolfspraul>
30 USD at digikey, 20x20mm, includes hdmi receiver, etc.
<juliusb>
how man LUT and FF, basically, i'm curious about
<juliusb>
s/man/many/
<wpwrak>
did you want digital video in ? :)
<wolfspraul>
in R4?
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wpwrak>
details ;-)
<wpwrak>
dual hdmi receiver. hah.
<wolfspraul>
ok, it would help me if someone could look at the 7441A datasheet and let me know how hard/difficult/wanted/unwanted it would be on m1
<wolfspraul>
or just wait a few days, I try to discover more on the sourcing ground
<wolfspraul>
this stuff is tedious
<wolfspraul>
too many chips, too many roadmaps, too small margins, too many technical details, too many direction and marketing changes, too too too :-)
<wpwrak>
and you can get it without HDCP. very thoughtful :)
<wolfspraul>
the less chips we have on m1 in the future, and the more we do in 1 high-performance fpga, the better
<wolfspraul>
I rather source external cables with built-in dacs and adcs
<wpwrak>
how many M1r4 do you expect to make ? (estimate within 1-2 orders of magnitude)
<wolfspraul>
we have to make a 8 pc verification run first
<wpwrak>
i wouldn't source too fancy cables :)
<wolfspraul>
I hope adam has most of the parts for that
<wpwrak>
but agreed on trying to do things in the fpga. there, we have nearly total control.
<wolfspraul>
since boom looks like a little delayed
<wolfspraul>
it's tough all around, but all good work
<wolfspraul>
I need to secure larger orders, I have no strong feeling on the actual r4 run size right now
<wolfspraul>
we have to keep m1 in stock
<wolfspraul>
that is for sure
<wolfspraul>
so how long until r5? when do we reach the point that word-of-mouth or other sales & marketing activities start to really gain traction?
<wolfspraul>
all very difficult to predict
<wolfspraul>
for now I go day by day
<wolfspraul>
just speed up
<wpwrak>
yeah, boom will only really make sense with kicad anyway. otherwise, you just have to manually copy things around and nobody will be particularly motivated to check the accuracy. pretty pointless.
<wolfspraul>
I want the 8pc R4 verification run asap
<wolfspraul>
we have to kick the design up
<wolfspraul>
the 7181 sourcing is a good reminder
<wolfspraul>
in the long run we should not depend on such chips
<wolfspraul>
too specialized, too expensive, only used in fringe use cases
<wolfspraul>
everybody will invest to get away from needing them :-)
<wpwrak>
hmm. seems that i won't get my answer :) my question would have been: if you had to buy all the codec you need for M1r4 today, would you expect to be able to find them ? (with decent quality and at a not overly exaggerated price)
<wolfspraul>
oh sorry, wait
<wolfspraul>
I really try to answer a question, not avoid or dismiss it
<wolfspraul>
sec
<wolfspraul>
had to buy?
<wolfspraul>
I want to buy
<wolfspraul>
now
<wolfspraul>
today
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
since we don't have boom, we have no good visibility into which chips exactly are not easily sourcable at digikey
<wolfspraul>
the slx45 we source in China, and for now that looks good
<wpwrak>
hmm, tracking sourcing with boom seems like an interesting extra feature
<wolfspraul>
other key troublemakers could be the nor chip and adv7181
<wolfspraul>
not 'tracking', but it can quickly reduce the number of things you look at
<wolfspraul>
sourcing is all about economics too
<wolfspraul>
or only
<wolfspraul>
ok, back to 7181 - let's assume for now we don't want the 7441
<wolfspraul>
I will just get that 7181 somewhere, b or c
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
including shenzhen backyards
<wpwrak>
one problem we'll have to solve is the database. right now, it's locally built. if we were to redistribute it, we'd reduce the setup time, load on the distributor's servers, but also duplicate information they may consider falls under their copyright
<wpwrak>
tricky
<wolfspraul>
the dark alleys where only real men go
<wpwrak>
(7181 from the dark underbelly of china) okay, problem solved :-)
<wolfspraul>
I cannot imagine they cause problems, this is about sales
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<wolfspraul>
in fact we should approach their marketing dept and tell them about boom
<wpwrak>
i guess that depends how badly their legal department feels it needs to justify its existence
<wolfspraul>
they may or may not like it. they may not like the fact that we make the different ones so easily comparable
<wpwrak>
yes, that would be a possibility
<wolfspraul>
oh, always directly talk and embed
<wpwrak>
pro: if they're reasonable, this can make things a lot easier for everyone involved
<wpwrak>
contra: if they're not, they may get angry if we use them anyway
<wolfspraul>
we don't need to think about everything and everybody
<wolfspraul>
let's just make a good job, and be 100% open and transparent and inviting about it
<wolfspraul>
then we stop using them
<wolfspraul>
I would pick the option that makes boom actually *work* asap
<wolfspraul>
I need this tool
<wpwrak>
regarding tracking, if we keep historical data around, you could call up the stock and price history of a part (and possible alternatives, if boom knows of them)
<cladamw>
wpwrak, thanks for adequately express my lack summary. ;-)
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: good morning! :-)
<wpwrak>
the quick way to making boom work is what i do now: crawl their component search
<wolfspraul>
yes
<cladamw>
good morning !
<wolfspraul>
let's strictly follow our practical needs, my #1 wish
<wolfspraul>
we want to make this thing, and make it cheap, and high-performance, and make it function today
<wpwrak>
:)
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: did you hear back regarding the ADV7181C ?
<wolfspraul>
arrow shanghai said it's not in stock there (and also element14), and they mentioned the ADV7441A instead, urgh :-)
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, no, will directly call again.
<wolfspraul>
yes
<wolfspraul>
let's zoom in a little.
<wolfspraul>
forget about the D
<wolfspraul>
and let's just buy now, no more questions, just cash on the table and where are the chips? :-)
<wolfspraul>
if needed, buy a whole tray
<wpwrak>
hmm. why don't we have TVS on MIDI TX ?
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: do you agree? just buy whole tray if that accelerates the case.
<wolfspraul>
I want to accelerate. otherwise we waste a lot of money with our time, and could work on better things.
<wolfspraul>
also I want to 100% rule out that M1 goes out of stock, I have to keep it in stock.
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, i'd rather order C in AVNET directly.
<wolfspraul>
do they have it?
<wolfspraul>
how many do you want now?
<wpwrak>
i think one feature i'll add as soon as we're on kicad with the schematics is automatic suppression of everything DNP ;-)
<wolfspraul>
after Om I know how good my life can be
<wolfspraul>
is it bad? should we remove some?
<cladamw>
AVNET has 105pcs in stock.
<wpwrak>
yeah. with kicad, we could just filter them from the .sch file before printing
<wolfspraul>
at Om, I seriously had fever every 6 weeks or so, from all the stress. and since that nightmare is over, maybe once in 3 years. call it quality of life - priceless.
<wpwrak>
most of them are there for a reason. so for now, i don't seem much chance for a purhe
<wolfspraul>
cladamw: then why don't we order at avnet?
<wolfspraul>
and yes, I like the middle way of dsv
<wolfspraul>
elegant and professional and still real-life enough to leave some backdoors :-)
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, i was not planned to order ADV7181C in last order batch, since gathered parts on Digi-key, Mouser for sample parts, not for a real R4 run order. The ADV7181C was highlighted while checked in octopart, not the thing why we don't order at avnet. ;-)
<wolfspraul>
don't understand. what is your point?
<wolfspraul>
we are planning a 8pc r4 verification run
<wolfspraul>
how many adv7181c do you have in stock now? how many do you need to buy?
<wolfspraul>
what is the moq at avnet? if you can buy from avnet, let's just do it!
<wolfspraul>
we can also reserve an extra 5 adv7181c for upgrades maybe?
<cladamw>
wpwrak, i've not edit R4 wiki bom page with datasheet link.
<wpwrak>
(links) thanks !
<wpwrak>
ah !
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: can we detect the difference between adv7181b and c at sw runtime?
<wpwrak>
well, i think i'll make a BOOKSHELF file (for dsv) anyway. too tedious to look up things otherwise. just want to make sure i'm not duplicating a lot of existing research.
<wpwrak>
yes
<wpwrak>
and even without asking the user to hold the camera above it :)
<wolfspraul>
well, you will like the links on the rc3 bom page :-)
<wolfspraul>
adam spent a lot of time looking them all up, in preparation for a nicer solution like dsv later
<wpwrak>
yes the rc3 links are great
<wpwrak>
wow. found one FB that didn't just say "FB" ;-)
<wpwrak>
actually, all the USB ones are like that. nice
<cladamw>
wolfspraul, will order 10 ~ 12 pcs 7181C in AVNET for R4 & if upgrade in case if need. i didn't include it in my last sample batch of orders.
<wpwrak>
at least usb has a few 2a-style junctions
<wolfspra1l>
cladamw: I didn't understand you earlier. can you repeat?
<wolfspra1l>
cladamw: ok, read backlog :-)
<wolfspra1l>
sounds great! so the adv7181c can be bought from avnet taipei?
<wolfspra1l>
we will try to find out some more information from shanghai and shenzhen, it may be helpful in the future
<wolfspra1l>
but if you can buy a few chips for R4 now, great!
<cladamw>
wolfspra1l, last week my samples order was to get them from digikey or Mouser for R4 few parts not for whole 8 sets of run. but just discovered 7181C was only sell in avnet web no else, so I didn't order ADV7181C in avnet.
<cladamw>
my next works: two -
<cladamw>
1. write notes in Chinese to house layout 2. prepare R4 wiki Bom page (which sorry Werner just asked.) ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
ok
<wolfspra1l>
but now it seems you can buy the adv7181c from avnet in taipei?
<wolfspra1l>
you did excellent work on the rc3 bom page, that's a good starting point for Werner
<cladamw>
not from taipei, from usa avnet web directly, i remembered C came from US.
<wpwrak>
above i mentioned usb (FB and junctions). that should have been power. got confused :)
<wolfspra1l>
we find out more data from china in parallel
<wpwrak>
wow. "top seller" :)
<wolfspra1l>
but you definitely please go ahead and order
<wpwrak>
is that us stock ? if yes, why does it say "Not available in Americas" ?
<wolfspra1l>
I wanted to ask about the parts for the r4 design verification mini-run anyway
<wolfspra1l>
if we want to make 8pc r4 - how many parts are missing?
<wolfspra1l>
do you have leftover parts from the rc3 run?
<wolfspra1l>
actually we can learn from this - if we do a run, we source 10-20% too much in case the next one needs a small design-verification first
<cladamw>
wpwrak, i meant last time not this current page.
<cladamw>
(leftover parts) wolfspra1l, i can't answer you now until i edit R4 done then that time to start order. but if worry 7181C then we order it firstly with others.
<cladamw>
for me, it's quite too earlier to order. only design-verification samples.
<wolfspra1l>
I think we can order adv7181c now, just in case
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: I think in general you can forget about the availability info you find on the web
<wolfspra1l>
especially for expensive and specialized ICs like that one
<wolfspra1l>
whatever they say, they may just order them from somewhere else, etc. it's a connected world :-)
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<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: what did you mean with "FB"?
<wpwrak>
(availability) dunno. i think at digi-key, it's pretty firm. dunno about avnet.
<wolfspra1l>
yes digikey is one of the very few where the availability/stock data still has some quality
<wpwrak>
(FB) beads. many of them are just labeled "FB"
<wolfspra1l>
but even at digikey I think they start to play a little with "can be ordered" etc.
<wpwrak>
(digi-key) the other extreme would be the gazillion chinese resellers. they all have everything. but you have to call/mail :)
<wolfspra1l>
they cannot stock all sorts of specialized expensive ics, that are also changing all the time
<wpwrak>
yeah, the non-stock items. usually with huge MOQs.
<wolfspra1l>
look how much trouble we have even with the few chips on our m1 board that several people pour over for years
<wolfspra1l>
and now imagine thousands and thousands of chips and revisions, and obsolete, replacement, company ownership change, management change, renaming, new process, marketing change, and and
<wolfspra1l>
and then we also like digikey because of their competitive pricing
<wolfspra1l>
or do we like it because of the quality of their availability data, or how much they have in stock in their own warehouse?
<wpwrak>
all of the above ;)
<wolfspra1l>
anyway we are on a good path overall, moving to more general chips
<wpwrak>
sourcing from a "cheap" but unreliable place can get expensive very quickly :)
<cladamw>
(FB) hmm...we have two kinds of FB only , one is 1206, the other is 0402, mmm...i should have edited and enabled their text for 0402.
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<wpwrak>
sorry, power trouble
<wpwrak>
there's a bug in my apartment's wiring that trips the circuit breaker if there's a lot of rain. then i need to wait until wherever the trouble is dries again. thought it was already safe, but no such luck.
<wolfspra1l>
see
<wolfspra1l>
China is in fact leading on *everything*
<wolfspra1l>
the rest of the world is behind
<wolfspra1l>
I have stories of that type 3 times a day
<wolfspra1l>
feel so advanced now
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, that electricity issue is a tiny nuisance. they never noticed before because they didn't have this kind of circuit breaker. not sure what it is. could be water dripping into a cable pipe.
<wpwrak>
and of course, it's in the original electrical installation. so it's somewhere in the walls. meanwhile, the new one in had added works flawlessly. i just need to cut the old, reset the circuit breaker, and, if the rain is very persistent, plug the fridge into the "good" net.
<wpwrak>
so the annoyance level is just slightly below my "do something about it" threshold :)
<kristianpaul>
juliusb: few K Luts, 2 - 2.5K if remenber
<wolfspra1l>
Thihi: no didn't know, looks like crap though :-) I focus on the positive, all the time.
<Thihi>
wolfspra1l, well, I remember laughing my ass off when I first saw that in 2006. I guess it is negative, in the sense that they are making fun of americans, but I found it pretty funny ;P
<Thihi>
What you said about hearing that message many times a day just brought that back into mind.
<Thihi>
I'm respectful towards all the nations of course, but somehow making fun of the world police has always appealed to my humor. ;P
<Thihi>
Well, as respectful as one can be after realizing that a nation can accurately be portrayed as a violent thug, being held back by full submission to it's demands ;P
<Thihi>
Any nation that is.
<wpwrak>
that video looks kinda unfriendly to both countries. probably some finns with their wry sense of humor made it ;-)
<Thihi>
:D
<Thihi>
Anyway, let's not get into politics. :)
<Thihi>
We're all individuals here as far as I can tell, so no reason not to look everyone in the eye and smile ;P
<Thihi>
eyes, sorry.
<Thihi>
I'm the only cyclops .)
<Thihi>
Although I have to say, that the wry (or deadpan) humor is prolly the best quality of the finns ;P
<wpwrak>
they're also fun to watch when going home from the disco in a winter night. nobody is walking along. because they couldn't ;-)
<Thihi>
:)
<Thihi>
Anyway, sorry for disrupting your conversation. Do carry on. :)
<wolfspra1l>
wpwrak: oh btw, in preparing for better communication with Lattice, I read up a little on the company
<wolfspra1l>
so it seems they withdrew from the 'top-end general-purpose fpga' market
<wolfspra1l>
leaving only xilinx and altera to compete with each other there
<wolfspra1l>
and instead lattice focuses on mid-range, and various specialized things like power and clock management, mixed-signal, etc.
<wpwrak>
mid-range would be us, too. right ?
<wolfspra1l>
they claim that their mid-range fpgas are cost-competitive with the altera/xilinx offerings, and try to justify why they are several generations behind on process nodes (I think they are still at 90nm), but at least for my quick glancing over this I did not find anything even closely attractive to m1
<wolfspra1l>
if it wouldn't be slower and also more expensive, yeah, maybe :-)
<wolfspra1l>
I think they simply cannot keep investing at the speed and amount that xilinx and altera can, and dropped out there
<wolfspra1l>
now they are focusing on smaller more profitable niches
<wolfspra1l>
and that does seem to work for them
<wpwrak>
ah, i see
<wolfspra1l>
that's my current understanding
<wolfspra1l>
it's not entirely convincing to me, especially I don't see how chips that are interesting for us could come out there
<wolfspra1l>
it looks like they will invest more and more in specialized (and of course proprietary) IP, mixed-signal fpgas etc.
<wpwrak>
with an open core to tie it all together
<wolfspra1l>
I don't even think that open core is an important part of their thinking now
<wolfspra1l>
other than it's something that is still 'theirs' and they try to monetize
<kristianpaul>
i doubt about tie, i mean i dont see how strong is that lm32 for then..
<kristianpaul>
yeah !
<kristianpaul>
afortunatly its open core is _very_ usefull for us :)
<wolfspra1l>
I'm sure they can find a profitable niche for themselves, it's a big big world. but I don't see what could be in it for us, which chips.
<wolfspra1l>
so maybe we just take the open core and that's it. and I don't expect lattice to do any meaningful investments into this, other than lip service which we already see :-)
<kristianpaul>
chips, well yeah... they claim a lot for low power stuff
<kristianpaul>
of course i just had read their marketing :)
<wolfspra1l>
yes, they have all sorts of specialized chips and ip/service too
<wolfspra1l>
that was their 'turnaround strategy', after my reading
<wolfspra1l>
drop out of the high-end race, leave it to xilinx/altera, and focus on more profitable smaller niches where they can reuse the tech they have, and carefully invest for their own future growth
<kristianpaul>
and the built-in flash well, could be and advantage could not.. i need evaluate that when get a osmo-sdr hope soon! :)
<wolfspra1l>
and it did work, after years and years of losses the company seems stabilized now
<wolfspra1l>
osmo-sdr uses a lattice fpga?
<kristianpaul>
yes
<wolfspra1l>
interesting. which one?
<kristianpaul>
XFP2
<kristianpaul>
XP2*
<kristianpaul>
let me confirm
<wolfspra1l>
yeah, just looking at octopart quickly
<kristianpaul>
yes that one
<wolfspra1l>
I find it expensive for the small 'raw performance' it has
<wolfspra1l>
but that is their strategy
<wolfspra1l>
they are adding stuff that makes it more interesting for specialized cases
<kristianpaul>
the plus was actually built-in flash and reasy to source (dont aske me details)
<kristianpaul>
also i think they used to use it :)
<wolfspra1l>
if you compare raw performance, you will pay way way more than with high-end xilinx or altera chips
<wolfspra1l>
but that is their strategy, and it seems to work
<wolfspra1l>
lattice was able to stop the bleeding
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<kristianpaul>
GPS!!! range (ilinx or altera )
<kristianpaul>
GBPS*
<kristianpaul>
oops
<kristianpaul>
:)
<wolfspra1l>
don't understand. what is your point?
<kristianpaul>
i mean i always read from both xilinx and altera, that advertice hihg speed bus transfers in their chips
<kristianpaul>
tranceivers. etc..
<kristianpaul>
i dont know if i explain correctly
<kristianpaul>
i just undertood that like high-end
<kristianpaul>
s/like/by
<kristianpaul>
ergh
<wolfspra1l>
lattice and xilinx both invest aggressively toward what is typically understood as 'latst and greatest performance'
<wolfspra1l>
the spartan-6 is made in a 45nm process, and the upcoming -7 series in a 28nm process
<wolfspra1l>
but lattice explains why you can do all the good things with chips made in 90nm and rather invest the money differently into mixed-signal, power, clocks, etc.
<wolfspra1l>
I think both strategies may work, maybe it was smart for lattice to drop out of the race, surely they had to or they would have simply gone out of business.
<wpwrak>
sometimes, a little analog circuit can go a very long way. their main problem should be that engineers who can do that are dying out
<kristianpaul>
mid-range also involve mobile?
<kristianpaul>
i remenber lattice adquired recently a company related to mobile solutions and i guess pld/fpga etc..
<wolfspra1l>
I cannot explain or comment on lattice too much, just reporting my findings
<kristianpaul>
sure :)
<wolfspra1l>
yes they seem to focus on cplds too
<wolfspra1l>
all sorts of things away from the typical xilinx/altera comparison
<kristianpaul>
more than usual it seems to me
<kristianpaul>
indeed
<wolfspra1l>
how many luts? max mhz? how many usd/lut? etc.
<wolfspra1l>
that they dropped out of, after loosing for years and years :-)
<wolfspra1l>
and if you compare the chips they sell today along those lines, they are indeed totally uncompetitive
<kristianpaul>
he
<wolfspra1l>
but since they seem to be selling their chips, the additional value/special features must work
<wolfspra1l>
how long this works I don't know
<wolfspra1l>
they will not reenter the high-end race thouhg, I think after dropping out the capital needed would be so huge - they would never find an investor for that
<wolfspra1l>
so that is down to xilinx & altera now
<wolfspra1l>
I definitely don't expect more open source stuff from them
<wolfspra1l>
(from lattice)
<wolfspra1l>
and I don't expect high-performance fpgas that can compete (on raw performance) with anything from altera or xilinx either
<wpwrak>
when you talk like this, then usually the opposite happens ;-)
<wolfspra1l>
that leaves little :-) unless some of their specialized chips suddenly stands out...
<wolfspra1l>
fine fine, it's all recorded. we see.
<wolfspra1l>
I can just do my homework and read.
<wolfspra1l>
it sounds as if the company is stable and profitable now. that's a start.
<wolfspra1l>
I think they held a record for most consecutive quarters with losses in Oregon State, or something like that :-)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wolfspra1l>
that does make me like them a bit
<wpwrak>
persistence :)
* kristianpaul
wonder what happended with the lm32 ASIC once commented on the ML
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* xiangfu
just tested tl 703n with as m1 wifi works just fine.
<xiangfu>
with OpenWrt images.
<xiangfu>
the only problem is you have to setup the WIFI connect by using your pc.
<xiangfu>
I have tested the latest openwrt trunk build.
<xiangfu>
there is no web server enable in latest openwrt trunk build.
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<wolfspraul>
xiangfu: we have to find an easy way for someone to enter ESSID and password on the m1, and then transfer it to the 703n
<wolfspraul>
or even scan networks, pick a essid, enter password
<wolfspraul>
or, if it's too difficult, maybe you have to connect to the wifi router with another computer and set it up then?
<wolfspraul>
we need to think throuhg how this becomes realy fool-proof and working, yet safe
<wolfspraul>
should be possible without another computer...
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<xiangfu>
out for lunch. bbl
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<lekernel>
wpwrak: manufacturers do not care; if they do I'll take it down
<wolfspraul>
yes but you open your entire project up for easy dismissals "built on illegal basis, just look here"
<wolfspraul>
not that I care much either, but werner's dsv is a nice middle way
<wolfspraul>
it allows for easy downloading, easy viewing, easy archival & backup in case something goes missing...
<lekernel>
wpwrak: and it's all public files, it's no worse than google cache or archive.org
<wolfspraul>
and no, the manufacturers we work with are not know (to me) to aggressively enforce these things
<wolfspraul>
we don't even consider chips of that type...
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: for most of these documents, there will be no redistribution rights granted to you
<wolfspraul>
and without those, your uploading is considered illegal in major western jurisdictions
<wolfspraul>
not that they would do much, see the various datasheet aggregator sites
<wpwrak>
the issue is mainly that they may feel they have to do something or it'll weaken their position in cases that actually matter (and there's probably good legal reasoning behind it)
<lekernel>
I'm not saying this is not a copyright violation, I'm saying it's unimportant
<wpwrak>
probably not their lawyers, whose task is specifically to avoid weakening of their IP's legal strength
<lekernel>
and regarding the "built on illegal basis" comment - no one noticed this repository before, it's a bit far fetched, and only uninteresting trolls would say that
<lekernel>
so it acts as a natural filter
<wpwrak>
but now you announced it ... :)
<wpwrak>
legal reasoning is often marked by a mix of fears. basically anything that happens with and around your product is perceived as a threat. this yields typical psychotic control freak behaviour. if you do anything they didn't explicitly approve, that's an attack. even if the outcome of you actions is irrelevant or even helps them.
<wpwrak>
no, some companies are worse than others. but i don't think it's particularly interesting to find out where exactly each stands.
<lekernel>
phew
<lekernel>
this stuff is copied all over the place
<lekernel>
google cache
<lekernel>
archive.org
<lekernel>
various datasheet aggregators sites
<lekernel>
university websites
<lekernel>
personal websites
<lekernel>
and more. and no one cares.
<wpwrak>
of course is it. and some of these companies are spending millions on lobbying for things like ACTA because they hate that so much.
<lekernel>
do they? it's just free publicity for the chips they sell
<lekernel>
and I don't remember semiconductor companies lobbying for ACTA
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<wpwrak>
that's not how their legal departments thinks. their task is to make sure the company is not perceived as "weak", that none of their precious IP loses value (unless approved), and if that really important document should leak and they want to do something, that nobody could claim that this was just usual practice.
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<wpwrak>
sometimes, you can get a company to give you redistribution rights. then everyone is happy: you can legally redistribute and they didn't open a hole in their defense
<wpwrak>
but it's hard to get to a point where they'll listen to you. and it still depends on how this resonates with internal policies. if they're close-minded and already hate it that they can't just NDA all their regular data sheets, you'll have a very hard time beating such a culture.
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<wpwrak>
e.g., in Openmoko, we had such success with NXP. but that was after months of very good contacts with them. plus, many people there understand open culture.
<wpwrak>
there's also a subtle line between plausible deniability. e.g., a company may be very well aware that you're doing something they shouldn't let you do. but they realize that it's not worth stopping you (and they may actually like what you're doing)
<wpwrak>
but they wouldn't necessarily want others to do the same.
<wpwrak>
so as long as you don't make noise about it, they'll just look the other way. but if something happens that makes it difficult for them to claim they hadn't noticed, then they have to act.
<wpwrak>
e.g., if you redistribute, say, some xilinx data sheets. and then fpga-acme.cn does the same, then xilinx may want to fight them. and attacking that redistribution would be one thing they could do. but if there's already established precedent of them not caring about people redistributing without permission,
<wpwrak>
they'd lose the ability to get a preliminary injunction. this is a powerful legal instrument but you have to be able to justify that there is urgency.
<wpwrak>
sometimes, also the things that legal cares about are seemingly trivial details. again, that is to have a point they can attack in bigger cases. for example, philips had troubles with asian companies cloning their high-end shaving machines. it would have been hard to fight them on the whole design.
<wpwrak>
what they used instead was copyright on the pattern of non-functional holes in the blade. that apparently gave them a strong enough case that they could fight that competition for a while.
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: btw, do you know if adam is making that r4 BOM with data sheets now ? if yes, i'll just wait and generate my BOOKSHELF from the wiki page. if not, i'll start writing my BOOKSHELF from scratch.
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<wolfspraul>
from scratch?
<wolfspraul>
you can definitely use the rc3 wiki page, that's what I'm sure adam will do
<wolfspraul>
I think there is an underlying .ods file that he will update
<wolfspraul>
and I think for the time being Adam should still do this
<wolfspraul>
I think the solution Sebastien chose at the beginning is a smart and acceptable compromise. Sebastien alone cannot work on thousands of details.
<wolfspraul>
the datasheets are in a separate git repo, nicely kept away from the rest
<wolfspraul>
he would definitely reply to takedown notices, which are unlikely to be filed given the nature of those datasheets and companies
<wolfspraul>
and in the long run we can work on what I believe are even better approaches such as dsv. all easy... :-)
<xiangfu>
wpwrak, 'm1/patches/rtems/' also updated.
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<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: yeah, just tried to explain to sebastien why you're likely to run into problems with an aggressive approach even though it seems at first sight to be in everyone's best interest.
<wolfspraul>
let's just step it up one level now with dsv etc then in the long run the datasheet repo will become unnecessary anyway
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (.ods) aah, now i see the workflow. thanks !
<wolfspraul>
then we still have (theoretically) our 'deep level linking' friends, but I think even for you and me that's too much to think about :-)
<wpwrak>
i think we're also in a much better negotiating position when is comes to deep linking
<wolfspraul>
I'm just saying we all have a line where it's enough and we want to get back to real work
<wpwrak>
after all, we have a perfectly valid need for keeping those data sheets well accessible
<GitHub66>
[migen/master] sim: make initialization cycle optional (selectable by function attribute) - Sebastien Bourdeauducq
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<LmAt>
hi, voidcoder. Welcome. Would you like to sit down and have some tea? Tell us, what's on your mind?
<voidcoder>
wow, are you a bot LmAt?
<LmAt>
I'm not a bot.
<voidcoder>
you greeted me so quickly, it kind of scared me into thinking you were one
<voidcoder>
thanks for inviting me, anyway
<voidcoder>
and I surely wouldn't mind some tea
<LmAt>
I'm not a bot.
* LmAt
gives voidcoder some tea.
* voidcoder
thanks LmAt for the tea and sits down in a comfortable chair
<LmAt>
I'm not a bot.
<wpwrak>
now .. how to convert an .odf spreadsheet to .csv from the command line ? jodconverter doesn't seem to work. complains about not being able to connect to ooffice -headless. and indeed, i don't see it listening on any port
<wpwrak>
(and the whole concept of firing [los]ffice as a kind of server is a bit scary anyway
<voidcoder>
I think there should just be a BSD licensed library for these kinds of things
<voidcoder>
I've done the whole UNO thing and it's just too complicated for most purposes
<wpwrak>
just a nice little library and a command-line tool to transmogrify from one variant to the other would be wonderful, yes
<lekernel>
anyone succeeded in simulating lm32 with a recent icarus-verilog? now that we have pretty good simulation support in migen, we can easily do funny things, like connecting to the simulated soc with gtkterm :-)
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
just make sure the simulation can't render in real time. or we'll have a marketing problem ;-)
<Fallenou>
I think last time I tried with iverilog it failed to "compile" the source code
<Fallenou>
of lm32
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<Fallenou>
so you advised me to use isim
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<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yesterday we briefly touched on cables with built-in data converters, and you more or less dismissed them as exotic
<wolfspraul>
but I wanted to bring this back again for discussion since I do believe there may be a point there for Milkymist One or future products
<wolfspraul>
video in and out are quickly moving to digital
<wolfspraul>
I am paying attention to this all the time now and that's definitely something I see
<wolfspraul>
vga is disappearing faster than rca
<wolfspraul>
I already found cables for 5-10 USD that include a DAC/converter to go from DisplayPort to VGA
<wolfspraul>
I think what will happen is that the manufacturers of new devices will increasingly remove the analog video-in and out from their new products
<roh>
most devices dont have analog video in anymore
<wolfspraul>
and for the large installed base of devices that want or emit RCA or VGA, there will then be a growing market for cables with built-in converters
<wolfspraul>
yes, just spelling it out
<wolfspraul>
so the market for video cables that include a DAC or ADC will grow, such cables will become more common
<wolfspraul>
imho
<roh>
i havent seen those around here
<wolfspraul>
I'm not saying we should dump our adc and dac now, and we couldn't even because it works today and is our only option.
<roh>
sure. no worries.
<wolfspraul>
but one possible path forward could be to add digital video support, in and out, then look for cables, then one day remove the built-in adc and dac
<roh>
nothing wrong thinking about the actual new revision +1
<wolfspraul>
if we are successful, I would bet that's what's going to happen over the next 1-2 years
<wolfspraul>
so we are doing the right thing. add digital video, first out, then see about in. make it work well (lots of work in the SoC). then start thinking about removing the analog path.
<wpwrak>
well, if and when such cables are ubiquitous, you can consider such a change. similar to usb-midi.
<wolfspraul>
I'm not so much describing what I want to change, but what I believe are trends.
<wpwrak>
and you want digitial video support anyway, even if you keep analog around
<wolfspraul>
sure, that's the first step
<wolfspraul>
but your point yesterday was that such cables are ... forgot what you said 'exotic' maybe?
<wolfspraul>
but I don't think so
<roh>
you will have enough to do with explaining the resolutions anyhow ;)
<wolfspraul>
new devices will *remove* analog
<wolfspraul>
but there's a large installed base of devices that only have analog
<roh>
'why doesnt it do 720p/1080i' ;)
<wolfspraul>
meaning that the market for this type of cable will grow
<wpwrak>
(trends) maybe. could also be that products fork - all-digital for places that have a high replacement rate (with very expensive converters), and mixed or even all-analog for places where equipment only gets replaced after the 100th failed repair attempt
<roh>
digital connections usually have the tendency to be copy protected and or not intended to be used as inputs
<wolfspraul>
roh: I think we are completely out of that type of comparison now
<roh>
e.g. i know of only very few hdmi-input cards (framegrabbers)
<wpwrak>
but if these trends go as you describe, they don't require us planning much ahead anyway. we can just opportunistically pick technology that becomes available :)
<roh>
an nothing which does display-port in
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes, absolutely
<wolfspraul>
our path is 100% correct
<wpwrak>
roh: sebastien one mentioned the possiblity of adding a pixel doubler :)
<wolfspraul>
I just wanted to add a snippet I realized about video cables with built-in converters
<wolfspraul>
which I will not even go search now, because we don't need them
<roh>
wpwrak: ack. anyhow.. lets add the dvi and get digital out working first. maybe we can abuse it to do digital in also... (for prototyping)
<wpwrak>
(DVI-in) ah yes, why not :)
<wpwrak>
and before we know, we'll want a means to power down DCC5V ((((-:C
<wolfspraul>
alright! :-) we think those are related?
<wolfspraul>
can we (ab)use the dvi-i connector for digital video-in prototyping?
<wolfspraul>
I'll get a coffee first :-)
<wpwrak>
not sure if DVI-in would work electronically. Adam has looked at it quite a bit. maybe he has an idea.
<wpwrak>
if you can really just plug one into the other with the usual cable, you'll probably need a means to set HPD. DCC5V would be a minor issue, too
<wpwrak>
(not sure if anything horrible would happen if two 5 V supplies would work against each other. particular considering that ours if pretty well isolated already)
<roh>
no need to change it now. we can mod a cable for testing and nobody would use it as in because it would block the out besides testing
<wpwrak>
step 2: consider the placement of the numbers 1-4
<wolfspraul>
what is gao rong pin and what is this product?
<wolfspraul>
are we using those caps on m1?
<wolfspraul>
any chinese supplier naturally makes me nervous :-)
<wolfspraul>
that one seems to be Taiwanese maybe? hard to tell
<wolfspraul>
in general I would advise against components from a Chinese supplier unless you personally visited and qualified the supplier, and have some China experience
<wolfspraul>
and those visits will kick out >95% of candidates you will visit...
<wpwrak>
naw, just kidding. they're a bit of untranslated chinese in the middle of a so-so translated page. and no, we don't use them :)