ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml-lang.org
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<wmeyer> darkf: if you use tuareg then M-x tuareg-run-ocaml if utop then M-x utop. uTop comes with ocamlbrew
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<ousado> wmeyer: what are you writing?
<ousado> re "actuall proper SSA conversion is right now on my backlog"
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<wmeyer> ousado: a compiler framework
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<ousado> wmeyer: an open source thing?
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<wmeyer> ousado: yes
<ousado> sweet
<wmeyer> the repo not often updated
<ousado> wmeyer: is that a spare time thing?
<ousado> (I shouldn't say 'thing' for a while)
<wmeyer> entirelly, yes
<ousado> ah ok
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<ousado> wmeyer: very nice project
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<wmeyer> ousado: thanks :-)
<ousado> wmeyer: do you have any concrete plans for it or is it mostly a learning experience?
<wmeyer> ousado: hard to tell at the moment, but yes, I'm rather on a serious side rather than toy at the moment
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<ousado> wmeyer: looks like it might be(come) suitable for writing a JIT compiler. very interesting.
<wmeyer> ousado: the (very) simple JIT already works, but yes, tracing JIT with fast compilation is the goal as long the AOT compiler
<wmeyer> long=well
<ousado> oh
<wmeyer> ousado: the idea would be to fill the gap
<ousado> didn't see that
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<ousado> nice
<wmeyer> test.toy is being JITted
<ousado> I'm thinking about writing a haxe backend, and looked at libjit
<ousado> but ocaml would be infinitely nicer
<wmeyer> ousado: maybe LLVM would be better
<ousado> nah, too big
<wmeyer> ocaml is nice but lacks native compiler framework
<wmeyer> also llvm jit is slow
<wmeyer> llvm lacks many things, more over is done in C++
<ousado> I like code I can keep in my head
<ousado> the relevant portions, at least
<wmeyer> llvm has nice code base, but maybe not so nice design
<wmeyer> is modular though and refactored often
<ousado> and I would only need a special-purpose JIT, really
<wmeyer> very well maintained
<wmeyer> I wish i could say at the moment, use Dragon kit - preferably version 0.2
<wmeyer> :-)
<ousado> hehe
<wmeyer> you have to wait for the release
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<wmeyer> it will be very alpha release though
<wmeyer> keep in mind the repository out there is not up to date too
<ousado> yes
<ousado> well, I currently don't have the time anyway
<wmeyer> i looked at libjit, there is also lightning
<ousado> GNU lighning, right?
<wmeyer> ousado: once you have maybe it will be a proper time
<wmeyer> yes
<ousado> my plan is to have a VM with integrated persistence
<ousado> for all types
<wmeyer> keep the runtime information enough to marshal
<wmeyer> good, usually precise gc is enough for you to have this
<ousado> I don't realy mean live-lisp-like stuff, although that's interesting, too
<wmeyer> that's what ocaml has
<wmeyer> lisp images are just memory dumps
<ousado> more like acid-state for haskell
<wmeyer> but the persistence you want is what the OCaml runtime does
<ousado> ok
<ousado> :)
<wmeyer> acid-state, i need to google :-)
<wmeyer> the persistence is a side effect, gc needs to know how traverse the data structure, so the marshaller does
<wmeyer> ah
<wmeyer> you mean db, i am being dumb, i somewhat new you are talking about data base
<wmeyer> new=knew
<ousado> yes
<ousado> SQL and all that troubles me
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<ousado> I just want to write types
<ousado> I have a version based on libgit, using nekovm for now
<ousado> which works nicely, but nekovm is limited performance-wise
<wmeyer> would you accept key-value storage? (excuse my ignorance, I know very little about databases)
<wmeyer> then you might want to look at Arakoon
<ousado> yes I've seen that one
<ousado> pretty cool
<wmeyer> yes
<ousado> might be a nice backend
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<ousado> but I already have the architecture in mind, and I also have a prototype that generates C-code from haxe types
<ousado> with 64bit address space, writing databases is very simple
<ousado> I just pretend I can have arrays of unlimited size
<ousado> one such array per type
<wmeyer> nice
<ousado> what's really sweet is that you can look at a pointer and see which type it points to
<wmeyer> because it has some RTTI in place?
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<ousado> no, you just have a region of memory per type
<ousado> an array of e.g. 8GB
<wmeyer> ah
<wmeyer> yes, so you look at the pointer
<ousado> all valid pointers into that array must be of that type
<wmeyer> sounds like a nice idea :-)
<ousado> yes, and it works
<ousado> it took just a month to prototype, thanks to haxe
<ousado> haxe macros, rather
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<ousado> so I thought the step from there to a VM is not that big
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<ousado> certain types you declare as persistent are backed by named mmapped files, the others by anon mmaps
<wmeyer> usually languages like haxe or ocaml acceleated quite much the development
<wmeyer> and with haxe you can compile to anything you want
<ousado> yes, more or less
<ousado> there's no good native target yet
<wmeyer> ocaml?
<wmeyer> :)
<ousado> yeah, that would be great
<ousado> or ATS
<wmeyer> should be simple to do, I'm sure they think about it
<wmeyer> ats is very performant
<ousado> unfortunately they don't as far as I'm aware
<ousado> there's a C++ target, but it's horrible IMO
<ousado> so I was thinking about doing this, also providing the database to other languages with nice type systems
<ousado> it's very nice to have persistent ADTs
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<wmeyer> so you like code generators a lot :-)
<wmeyer> especially meta programming is nice
<ousado> totally
<wmeyer> i agree
<wmeyer> i like it too, usually all sorts of problems can be sorted this way
<ousado> I'd do it all day if I hadn't to fight CSS and IE and whatnot
<ousado> but about 50% of this CMS I'm writing is generated code
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<hongboz> ousado: what do u mean by persistent ADTs, any example?
<ousado> hongboz: well, you write any ADT to some store, turn off the computer, turn it on again and load it from the store
<hongboz> ousado: this is just serialization deserialization?
<ousado> yes
<hongboz> any language can do this
<ousado> well, you need some more stuff to make it reliable and performant, usually
<ousado> and deal with large graphs etc.
<ousado> things that don't fit into RAM entirely, for instance
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<ousado> and versioning and whatnot
<ousado> there's a few things to think about, to not have to think about them later anymore
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<wmeyer> hongboz: other languages can do things more efficiently; you don't want to do meta programming in BF
<hongboz> I agree
<wmeyer> hongboz: ideally it would be superb to have this vistitors
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<hongboz> wmeyer: this was already done in Fan, porting it back to p4 takes some time, though
<wmeyer> awesome
<wmeyer> I know it's consuming
<wmeyer> if Fan was a bit more stable, I would considered using it now
<hongboz> wmeyer: not stable yet, it's more ambitious ;-)
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<wmeyer> I know
<ousado> hongboz: basically I meant something like this: http://acid-state.seize.it/
<ousado> oh - didn't know about Fan
<ousado> how does that relate to MetaOcaml if at all?
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<ousado> hongboz: are you writing Fan?
<hongboz> not too much related to MetaOcaml, For MetaOCaml, it has only one object language ocaml
<hongboz> it's type safe
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<hongboz> Fan is designed to be practical
<hongboz> it handle different object-langauges
<hongboz> Expressivity is the main concern
<ousado> hongboz: "it's type safe"?
<ousado> that's the property they share?
<hongboz> that depends on how you see 'type safe', the output code is finally type-checked
<hongboz> but in the intermediate stage, not
<ousado> oh I see
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<wmeyer> ok, time to get some sleep, good night all
<ousado> wmeyer: good night
<hongboz> night
<ousado> hongboz: but it's still a ML-style language?
<ousado> since it says "superset of ocaml"
<hongboz> yes, the goal is to make 'concrete-syntax compatible'
<hongboz> fan to ocaml is what typescript to javascript
<ousado> heh, I didn't know MS had their own dart
<ousado> OK I think I understand
<ousado> very nice project
<ousado> shouldn't many ocaml devs be interested in that project?
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<hongboz> still alpha stage, but it's very promising
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<pippijn> is there a way to let camlp4 print the AST in human-readable form?
<pippijn> because I'm wondering how to get this with quotations: type t = A | B
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<pippijn> well, I figured it out
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<pippijn> using annot
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<Drakken> pippijn this is the quotation: value quot _loc = <:str_item< type t = [A|B]; >>;
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<Drakken> pippijn that looks okay as far as I can tell, except it doesn't use the out param.
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<Drakken> And of course it doesn't output the "type t =" part.
<pippijn> oh right
<pippijn> Drakken: that's because it needs to end up in both sig and str
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<pippijn> and out is old, because it used to print directly
<pippijn> now I'm building an AST, first
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<pippijn> can I use sexplib.syntax in quotations?
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<flux> first I thought that the Vector2/Vector3-use of GADTs is useless (on the mailing list), but actually it seems pretty nice, because you can use same functions for all vectors and the types are guaranteed
<flux> too bad you need to use constructors with gadts, it won't work with plain tuples ;)
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<madroach_> Hi, what is the difference between the standard library Weak Hashtable and the batteries InnerWeaktbl?
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<flux> InnerWeakTbl sounds to me something internal for Batteries, there is probably an external name for it as well?
<flux> but my guess is there should be little difference, maybe Batteries' provides some additional operations..
<madroach> flux: that's what I thought, too, but I cannot find anything.
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<GnomeStoleMyBike> Hello
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<reynir-laptop> Big_int's string_of_big_int seems to be unreasonably slow
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<pippijn> reynir: stringising big ints is slow
<pippijn> but I don't know how unreasonably slow Big_int is, as I've never used it
<reynir> It took about eight minutes to print 20,000,000th fibonacci number but only 30 seconds to compute it
<reynir> In go it took three minutes doing both and a bit more than one minute to compute it
<reynir> one minute and 20 seconds
<adrien> it's slower as the strings get longer iirc
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<reynir> I'm just surprised it takes so long and wanted to know if anyone had an explanation :-)
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<flux> if it works by /10, %10, then it is O(n^2) ?
<f[x]> quadratic concatenation?
<flux> I mean, first you divide a number of length N, then you divide a number of length N-1x, then N-1x, etc
<flux> but perhaps there's a better algorithm
<flux> than the naive way people do int-to-string conversion
<f[x]> no, looks like it is allocating string once
<adrien> I doubt you get below O(n) anyway :-)
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<f[x]> reynir, could you share the code to profile it?
<f[x]> the code is with comments in french
<f[x]> referencing caml light o_O
<braibant> should post on caml list
<reynir> It's not too pretty
<f[x]> reynir, np
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<reynir> Would it make sense to use lazy instead of my cache?
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<f[x]> when printing it spends most of time in division..
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<reynir> braibant: Should I write to the caml-list?
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<f[x]> also, did you try zarith?
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<reynir> No, I have never heard of it before
<f[x]> it's an officially endorsed replacement for num library
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<reynir> f[x]: Thanks, I will try that
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<reynir> Holy crap that's *much* faster
<reynir> 0.87 seconds
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<f[x]> that faster?
<reynir> Yes
<ousado> reynir: just for printing?
<reynir> It's ridiculous
<reynir> No, printing and computing
<ousado> woot
<f[x]> and result is correct?
<reynir> Yea seems so
<reynir> The md5sum is the same at least :P
<f[x]> Awesome!
<ousado> sounds like magic
<ousado> zarith
<reynir> That is pretty awesome
<ousado> it's using GMP
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<reynir> Now I have the fastest code :P
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<reynir> That's a factor 600 improvement
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<braibant> is there a list somewhere of the prefix/infix/postfix symbols that can be redefined by the user in ocaml? (like, I like redefining ! in my code, but I need a bit more than this)
<reynir> Yes, there's a list in the manual, I believe. I will find it for you
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<pippijn> does anybody know how I can use sexplib within camlp4 quotations?
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<braibant> reynir: thanks
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<reynir> braibant: No problem. I believe you have helped me a few times in #coq :-)
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<pima> Hi, I can't compile a .ml (this one http://goo.gl/VcNJt), it works on ocamlc 3.11.2 (debian 6) but not on 4.0 (osx 10.8), here's the output on both computers http://pastie.org/5044445
<pima> Can anyone help me please ?
<hcarty> pima: It works here under Linux + OCaml 4.00.1
<thelema> pima: broken ocaml install?
<pima> I installed OCaml with homebrew at first, it gave me the same error, then I tried to uninstall it, and to install it via the package for osx on http://caml.inria.fr/download.fr.html
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<thelema> I'm guessing the uninstall was unsuccessful and you're running the remenants of that install
<thelema> `which ocamlc` on osx
<pima> \/usr/local/bin/ocamlc
<thelema> is that where the package installed to?
<pima> let me check
<pima> but, i don't think so, because brew gave me 4.0.0 ocamlc and after the install i got v4.00.1
<thelema> ok, other possibility is that your ocaml library dir is borked
<thelema> `ocamlc -where`
<thelema> is there an arg.* in that dir?
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<pima> Yes, arg.cmi, cmx, ml, mli, p.cmx
<pima> but no cma, maybe that's why ?
<thelema> no, cma is an archive; similar to .a
<thelema> .cmi is the critical one for compilation
<thelema> it's the compiled interface
<pima> here's what i got for the module Graphics : a, cma, cmi, cmx, cmxa, cmxs, mli
<pima> and the graphics module works
<pima> that's why i thought about the missing .a/.cma
<thelema> Graphics, Unix, Str and a few more are special, as they're not really part of the stdlib
<thelema> they're otherlibs that are distributed with the compiler
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<thelema> what happens if you type `List.hd;;` into the ocaml toplevel
<pima> i get - : 'a list -> 'a = <fun>
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<thelema> `Arg.Unit` ?
<pima> Error: The files /usr/local/bin/ocaml and arg.cmi make inconsistent assumptions over interface Arg
<thelema> your arg.cmi file is from the old install, and ocaml is very picky about interface compatibility
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<thelema> try deleting it and re-installing the new version.
<thelema> well, all the arg.* files, just in case
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<pima> Done. No changes.
<pima> Tried deleting also /usr/local/bin/ocaml and reinstalling, no changes.
<thelema> I guess it's possible that the osx package of ocaml has a broken arg module somehow.
<_habnabit> fwiw on os x i always install ocaml by using godi
<thelema> I think ocamlbrew works on osx
<thelema> _habnabit: can you take some time to verify this arg issue in the official installer?
<_habnabit> sure
<_habnabit> let me make sure i know where it's installing itself first
<_habnabit> i don't want it to clobber my working environment
<thelema> quite
<pima> i have to go, anyway thanks for the help, will return later
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<_habnabit> hm. it's trying to install to /usr/local and i can't change it to /opt/ocaml or anything else
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<thelema> :(
<_habnabit> i have stuff in there!!
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<wieczyk> wmeyer:
<wieczyk> thelema:
<wieczyk> I have checked LWT
<wieczyk> It uses system thread to utilize more CPU
<wieczyk> but only main thread can run Ocaml code.
<wieczyk> [by obvious reasons]
<thelema> ok...
<wieczyk> I have speaked with you about SMP
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<wieczyk> Or it is my imagination.
<wieczyk> It is why I have highlighted you.
<wieczyk> more CPUs*
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<thelema> only C threads can run in those other CPUs
<thelema> ?
<thelema> it's possible that C threads could run in other CPUs
<thelema> they'd have to be careful about interacting with the OCaml world
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<wieczyk> Yes, only C-threads.
<wieczyk> Well, no one will check if you do something bad.
<wieczyk> But if runtime is not mpsafe
<wieczyk> then it is very dangerious
<wieczyk> w8
<wieczyk> se jobs
<thelema> This function must not: access or allocate OCaml block values (tuples, strings, ...), call OCaml code.
<wieczyk> due to not mpsafe runtime.
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<thelema> yes
<wieczyk> It is how LWT can, with additional effort, defeat some problems with blocking calls in external libraries etc (look that lwt provides support for glib, which makes possible to use GTK which has own event-loop, which cannot be wrapped by Ocaml runtime)
<wieczyk> Still, I would like to have multicore runtime.
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<wieczyk> Does Perl support multicore?
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<wieczyk> I have seen Perl 5.8, I remember it had thread module. But I did not remember if those threads was system thread or emulated.
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<bitbckt> iirc, the Perl threading model is multiple interpreters per process.
<wieczyk> Nice trick.
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<adrien> I think ocamlnet does it similarly
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<wmeyer> wieczyk: remember that Perl has nothing to lose.
<yezariaely> anyone tried BatCharParser? anyone has an idea how I can get parsing started. I tried BatCharParser.parse (BatCharParser.source_of_string s) however the type parse requires is different from the type source_of_string yields.
<wmeyer> in other words, first thing is that, it's slow and have reference counted memory management
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<wmeyer> second thing is that Perl has no infrastructure for SMP not using locks
<wmeyer> so SMP actually makes sense
<thelema> yezariaely: yes, the Source has to be used by BatParserCo.run
<thelema> yezariaely: the parse function in BatCharParser bypasses the source_of process
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<wieczyk> wmeyer: Yes, if you speak about performance perl does not have anything to lose.
<wieczyk> wmeyer: But I Still think that you are under some anti-lock propaganda. Even without SMP you need to have synchronization (locks) when using shared memory etc.
<thelema> yezariaely: you build your parser in BatParserCo and then apply it to a string with BatCharParser.parse or apply it to a source with ParserCo.run
<wieczyk> It is weird in ocaml
<wieczyk> that it don't have SMP and I wam very interrested to have fun with it... I still think that programming in ocaml is the right choice for me ;d
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<wmeyer> wieczyk: yep. OCaml does not need SMP to be fun.
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<wmeyer> wieczyk: I'm not an opponent tho, but believer it's a minor annoyance
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<yezariaely> thelema: thanks , I missed the run function
<thelema> yezariaely: it really needs some examples
<yezariaely> I will write some when it works...
<yezariaely> or should I say 'if it works'
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<yezariaely> ;-)
<thelema> :)
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<wmeyer> `\o
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<adrien> o/'
<wieczyk> !o!
<adrien> ¡0l
<Qrntz> ¡ø¡
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<yezariaely> thelema: I really like the Qt documentation because they work with code examples, a lot. Is there any argument agains extending the batteries doc in this way?
<thelema> none at all; please contribute as much examples as you can
<thelema> if there's some other barrier to your contribution, let me know so I can lower it
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<thelema> I got started writing examples for some of the functions in... Substring, iirc. It's a bit tedious to just sit down and do.
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<yezariaely> I would integrate these examples directly in the documentation of the functions not in an extra examples directory as I just saw in the repo.
<thelema> I think there's a place for examples in the examples directory too.
<thelema> but you're right, we need more example code in the docs.
<wmeyer> yezariaely: thelema what would be really great, a usage patterns for common things that people can do using batteries
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<wmeyer> thelema: I think I did mention about this :-)
<thelema> actually, here
<thelema> definitely needs some cleanup
<yezariaely> hmm I don't totally agree with building an additional documentation here.
<yezariaely> I don't know if you are aware of the Qt documentation, but there, autogenerated doc and examples are combined into one html which I find very helpful.
<thelema> I'm fine with the community adding whatever documentation it is willing to write.
<thelema> I'm not able to sit down and document everything in batteries
<thelema> with examples
<yezariaely> ok, than we are walking in the same direction :)
<thelema> :)
<yezariaely> is there a mailinglist for batteries?
<yezariaely> or a forum?
<thelema> mailing list, yes
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<yezariaely> thelema: the current version from github does not compile?! the compattest fails
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<yezariaely> val output_buffer : t -> string BatInnerIO.output is not included in val output_buffer : out_channel -> t -> unit
<yezariaely> (3.12 is installed)
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<thelema> very odd, one sec...
<thelema> hmm, it doesn't look like it's failing for me
<thelema> 3.12.1?
<yezariaely> no, I have 3.12.0 here. Maybe I should update to 4 anyway
<yezariaely> but it should compile in 3.12.0 anyway
<thelema> This must be one of the bugs in 3.12.0 that we couldn't work around.
<thelema> it requires 3.12.1
<thelema> 3.12 is buggy enough to be not worth supporting
<adrien> heheh :-)
<thelema> I'm guessing there's a bug around some of the module tricks we're doing to verify backwards compatibility.
<thelema> s/3.12/3.12.0/
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<yezariaely> ah I see... so I should definitely update my local version ;)
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<wieczyk> 2Is somewhere already defined
<wieczyk> diff: 'a list -> 'a list -> 'a list
<wieczyk> ?
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<adrien> which does?
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<yezariaely> I'd be very happy to get some suggestions on how to simplify the parse_float function in here: http://pastebin.com/kB9GNT8W
<yezariaely> way to many parenthesis if you ask me, but I could not get rid of them.
<_habnabit> yezariaely, float_of_int
<_habnabit> er
<_habnabit> float_of_string
<_habnabit> sorry
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<yezariaely> thx, however this change does not change the "clumsiness" of the whole source ;)
<yezariaely> (at least it looks clumsy)
<yezariaely> ah sorry, I missunderstood you
<yezariaely> you meant replacing the whole parser ;)
<yezariaely> sure this helps, however I want to have a small example showing how parser combinators work...
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<wieczyk> adrien: guess :D
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<wmeyer> has anynody tried generating code with camlp4 that includes "with sexp" annotations on the data types definitions?
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<wmeyer> I will try with revised syntax
* wmeyer is a revised syntax virign so far.
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<wmeyer> f[x]: hi!
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<wmeyer> ok so it looks like no way to generate sexp code. So you are telling me that I can't use quotations with sexp at all :(
<wmeyer> well, ol' good sed is always a solution
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