ChanServ changed the topic of #ocaml to: Discussions about the OCaml programming language | http://caml.inria.fr/ | OCaml 4.00.1 http://bit.ly/UHeZyT | http://www.ocaml-lang.org
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<pippijn> how can one parse a string containing an ocaml expression into a camlp4 AST?
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<pippijn> well, I think I found it
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<pippijn> but only for revised syntax
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<Drakken> maybe....
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<wieczyk> Which standard library extension do you use? Batteries or Core? It is common to use both?
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<wieczyk> If not, then it is small pitfail of community... not popular language and when you write some library you have to decide which extension you want to use.
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<pippijn> is it true that in revised syntax, I can not make my own True and False variants?
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<wieczyk> Does ocaml use references?
<wieczyk> If I put for example
<wieczyk> let v = some-value-of-algebraic-data-type in
<wieczyk> [v; v; v; v; v]
<wieczyk> Does this list constainf of references to value of v or copies of value v?
<wieczyk> Whats about Hashtbl, Map etc?
<Kakadu> wieczyk: 1st, I think
<adrien> wieczyk: check with the (==) operator
<wieczyk> Good idea, I forgot about physical comparision.
<wieczyk> references.
<wieczyk> Good, but I was expecting this due to persistent data structures.
<wieczyk> It would be weird of doing copy of immutable data.
<wieczyk> Another question
<wieczyk> let r = ref 0
<wieczyk> r := 5;
<wieczyk> r := 6;
<wieczyk> It is optimalized for integer? The r is mutable storage of integer type or it is mutable reference to boxed immutable integer?
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<adrien> your second possibility would seema little bit extreme
<wieczyk> But it is possible.
<adrien> there's no reason to share integers
<adrien> so I doubt they're shared
<wieczyk> It depends on how ref is implemented. Maybe it has only general mechanism and basic types have to be boxed.
<wieczyk> See C# for example and polymorphism here (generics)
<adrien> boxed doesn't mean it's immutable
<adrien> # let x = ref 42;;
<adrien> val x : int ref = {contents = 42}
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<wieczyk> Yes, boxed does not mean immputable. You have right.
<wieczyk> (Sorry I have guest).
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<wieczyk> Whatever. I am asking how the references to an integer re implemented.
<wieczyk> mutable for primitive type, mutable reference to immutable boxed value, mutable reference to mutable boxed value.
<wieczyk> mutable store for*
<wmeyer> wieczyk: references will be always boxed
<wmeyer> it will be a block of one field
<wmeyer> where the value will have least significant bit set
<wmeyer> of course the compiler can optimise things
<wmeyer> it could convert the references to a stack slot
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<wieczyk> Why the bit is set?
<wmeyer> to distinguish between pointers to another block and integers, precise garbage collector needs to traverse the data structures, to do this, it needs to know two things, size of the block, and for each field whetever it's an integer or pointer to another block
<wmeyer> and because memory blocks are aligned, it's guranteed that the least significant bit is cleared
<wmeyer> the major reason is stack
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<wmeyer> once you register the stack slot with Caml values, the gc at each collection which will happen in C code, will traverse them to make sure that the blocks they are referencing will be not collected
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<madroach> hi, is there a way to define mutually recursive class types and types? Like this: http://pastebin.com/KJFixqci
<wmeyer> madroach: yes, by wrapping them in recursive modules.
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<wieczyk> wmeyer: thanks for explanations, I have to concede I dont know how GC works.
<wieczyk> Only basic idea that 'reachibility graph' is more reliable than 'reference counting'
<wieczyk> due to cyclic pointers.
<wieczyk> cycles*
<wieczyk> cycles* in data
<wieczyk> cycles in data*
<wieczyk> pff that was hard correction
<wmeyer> sed is turing complete!
<wmeyer> :)
<madroach> wmeyer: I don't yes know about recursive modules, but this sounds like a solution. Thanks :)
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<wmeyer> madroach: you welcome
<wieczyk> (For me the recursive modules sounds like some perversy -- of course i did not use them and know nothing about this)
<wmeyer> they are, but it's one of the features that is rarely used but needed occasionally - they also workaround some limitations of the type system sometimes
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<hcarty> wieczyk: I think Core existed first, but only as an internal project/library. Core's development has been opened up somewhat, but it is still closely tied to Jane St. Batteries began and continues as a community project.
<hcarty> Batteries was started/released before any public releases of Core were made.
<wieczyk> mhmh
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<hcarty> Core requires a signed contributor agreement before contributions can be made, Batteries does not
<Kakadu> wieczyk: Use both and decide what is better
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<hcarty> Core works hard to be consistent with its own standards. Batteries is designed to be (almost entirely) compatible with the stdlib out of the box.
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<adrien> hcarty: well, Batteries came first if you take extlib into account :P
* wmeyer OCaml rule of four always stands.
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<arsatiki> what's the rule of four?
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<wmeyer> OCaml has at least four different std-libraries, at least four different package managers and at least four different build systems
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<arsatiki> Ah
<arsatiki> Since there are so many, they must all suck
<arsatiki> I'll write a new one
<wieczyk> 20:28 < wmeyer> OCaml has at least four different std-libraries, at least four different package managers and at least four different build systems
<wieczyk> hehehe
<wieczyk> Well
<wieczyk> we should provide three additional compilers.
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<wmeyer> yes, that would essentially be the Complete version of Rule of Four
<wmeyer> and the rule of four says also that they have to be incompatible
<avsm> js_of_ocaml, ocamlc, ocamlopt, ocamljs. i make that to be 4 :-P
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<flux> js_of_ocaml isn't really a compiler..
<wmeyer> I agree with avsm at any rate we have also four different compilers too. We also have two different syntaxes (we need to think about two more, I would suggest the Brace Syntax for ocaml), and two different pre-processors (third is coming I think!)
<flux> and those are all based on the same source
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<wmeyer> flux: there is always a blur distinction in between "everything" and "compiler" :-)
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<wmeyer> but js_of_ocaml looks more like a compiler backend ..
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<wieczyk> I hope that the Rule Of Four (ROF) will not tell about community's cardinality.
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<wmeyer> wieczyk: My hypothesis that ROF is almost equivalent to The Lisp Course.
<wmeyer> s/course/curse
<wmeyer> excluding some bits and pieces; Lisp is extreme and I know very well one peron affected by this
<wmeyer> so Lisp curse is effectively much stronger version of ROF
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<wieczyk> I will read this before sleep.
<wmeyer> wieczyk: it's funny
<wmeyer> OCaml seems to fit into that model excluding some of the social aspects.
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<wieczyk> When I think about Ocaml I feel that this is language
<wieczyk> which more fit to old times
<wieczyk> when it was common that user of language was an expert
<wmeyer> I agree with that with addition that is more powerful than other languages, so people have different goals
<wmeyer> to be honest I think people are just not aware what is the difference between technologies, so they don't feel attracted enough to learn
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<rgrinberg> does anybody why BatInterfaces does not contain more interfaces?
<rgrinberg> know why
<rgrinberg> say foldable for example
<Anarchos> rgrinberg like mli files ?
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<rgrinberg> Anarchos, yes pretty much except more like smaller signatures that can be reused across different data structures
<rgrinberg> like BatInterfaces.mappable
<rgrinberg> for example
<Anarchos> i never used batteries so i can't say much about it
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